NO INSURANCE...

Roymondo:

nick2008:
Just to add about the we’ll come to your house to take a statement. I do believe that once invited into the property that also gives a right to search without a warrant.

Your belief is mistaken. The power to search your home without warrant only applies if you are arrested.

Ah right I thought it was the same when you entered a vehicle as I was told by a traffic bod some years back.
that’s why they tend to arrest a driver then to access a vehicle to seize possible evidence like the mobile phone etc then

Roymondo:

Conor:
You have to remember that it isn’t actually a requirement of the Police to know all of the law. It seems in this case that the police the OP has dealt with don’t know of the exemption in liability built into the RTA for employees driving a company vehicle.

I would point that part shown out to them. If they want to let it proceed then when you get to court you just bring a copy of the RTA, your wageslips, point out the part of the RTA and that you were driving the vehicle in course of your duties as an employee.

It’s not an exemption from liability, it’s a statutory defence. As per the extracts quoted by others, it is down to the driver to show that it applies to him. The only practicable way he can do this is to answer questions (which, due to current rules on questioning of people supected of offences, must be done under caution).
The alternative of course is to follow the advice of the barrack-room lawyers hereabouts and decline to be interviewed or go “no comment” to everything. Then you get to take a day off work appear in court in person, plead Not Guilty and (hopefully) prove to the court that the defence applies in your case before walking out a free man and wondering why you didn’t simply answer the questions to start with.

Roymundo, Insurance is a straight foreward you’ve got it yes or no . Of course we do not have all the facts here, but even from what the OP tells us, its not straightforeward. IF he’d of been stopped with no insurance, culpable or not, the vehicle would be stopped, impounded, prohibited or whatever. BUt apparently, or lack of suggestion of otherwise i’m assuming the vehicle is free. Its gone through two police forces so far,the OP says Dover police has handed info over to Kent Police. Hard to guess how that situation has arisen.
The OP also says…

had a visit from the local police about insurance for a truck I was driving before xmas

So they’ve spoken to him. Whatever he has or has not said, apparently has not cleared up the matter as they now want a statement, for use in court. As lets face it, they don’t want a statement in writing and signed just so they can put the matter officially to bed, agreed ?

Now you say don’t listen to “barrack room lawyers” who say…say nowt, don’t give an interview etc…(i’m one of them offering that advice :smiley: ). But here’s the facts so far, he’s held an insurance policy that he has seen and used abroad where it a pre requsite for travel. I’m guessing if he’s told us here that, he’s also told the Police that? But better than that, the Police Federation/Union whatever it is, can you guess what advice it gives its members (Policemen) if they are questioned for some alleged misdemeanour ? I’ll make it multiple choice for you so its easier to answer,…
(a) do they tell members to assist the enquiry by answering all questions related to their duty and conduct?

or do they tell their members to …
(b) Say nothing at all until you have Legal representation with you, and even then try to refrain from making any statement ?

What do the Police advise their own members to do when faced with a Police Inquiry, a or b ?

But back to the OP, it should be pretty simple. Decline any interview, accertain what it is they want to speak about, i.e…No Insurance. Tell them simply, with no interview…I held it, i seen the policy, i carried it. End of story. Nothing signed, let them do there own homework, which i’d suspect goes well beyond the realms of if the driver was insured or not. But convicting the driver of no insurance, which may be seen as an easy targett may prop up whatever else it is they’re doing. They’re not going to lay the cards on the table to him are they? And neither should he lay his.

Oh, and as to your assumption that he’d have to take a day off to attend a Court case, thats not true. He’d simply write a letter to the CPS or whoever is handling the prosecution, and state what he intends to use as a defence and it’ll be withdrawn. They will not continue a case a prosecuting an employed driver for no insurance if he has told that he has held and seen the Policy and had no reason to believe everything was not in order. So, no day off in Court.

I speak from personal experience in this area, lots, not theory.

Mike-C:
Its gone through two police forces so far,the OP says Dover police has handed info over to Kent Police.

What county is Dover in again ? :slight_smile:

If i was a betting man, then i’d lay odds that someone has reported the OP’s truck for a fail to stop RTC. And these other possible charges have not been asked about. Its transpired though enquiries that the Insurance has lapsed. Thats my bet. Probably no insurance may be the least of his worries.

m1cks:

Mike-C:
Its gone through two police forces so far,the OP says Dover police has handed info over to Kent Police.

What county is Dover in again ? :slight_smile:

Sorry mate, i misquoted. He said “Dover Port Police”.which i know nothing about. BUt assuming its like Liverpool Port Police then they’re a seperate Police force if you like, almost private operating in nature with all the benefits of being Police !!

Mike-C:
(a) do they tell members to assist the enquiry by answering all questions related to their duty and conduct?

or do they tell their members to …
(b) Say nothing at all until you have Legal representation with you, and even then try to refrain from making any statement ?

What do the Police advise their own members to do when faced with a Police Inquiry, a or b ?

They advise (b) of course. But the important bit being that proper legal advice should be sought. What they do NOT advise their members to do is ask a few colleagues in the canteen and proceed according to what they (or a group of random strangers) suggest. Once the legal bods have the full picture, the advice is often to proceed with an interview (with solicitor etc in attendance to offer appropriate guidance, of course). For this purpose, the offer to attend a voluntary interview at a police station might well be the best option, since the suspect must be given access to free legal advice (from a proper solicitor rather than a random lorry driver).

Oh, and as to your assumption that he’d have to take a day off to attend a Court case, thats not true. He’d simply write a letter to the CPS or whoever is handling the prosecution, and state what he intends to use as a defence and it’ll be withdrawn. They will not continue a case a prosecuting an employed driver for no insurance if he has told that he has held and seen the Policy and had no reason to believe everything was not in order. So, no day off in Court.

I speak from personal experience in this area, lots, not theory.

Well, I speak from having personally dealt with dozens of similar cases over a period of 25 years. The “no comment” approach is often appropriate when defending an allegation which involves intent - but “no insurance” is not such an offence. As you quite correctly observe, it’s either in force (for that particular driver, in that particular vehicle, for that particular use) or it isn’t.

turbot:

alphonsohall:
beng interviewed under caution is merely a police formality and as long as you comply with all of the above then the matter is closed as far as you are concerned, you don’t need to take a solicitor along with you, which could be costly, (unless there is something more that you’re not telling us)

Rubbish.

A bit off topic, but relevant, Ched Evans was convicted by evidence HE gave to the police. If he had gone with a “no comment” interview (which no doubt he would have done, had he taken counsel before “helping the police”) he would have been a free man.

He hung himself, be careful not to do likewise.

Are you seriously comparing the Ched Evans ‘■■■■’ case to the OP’s problem■■?.. :unamused:

Port of Dover Police complies with all national legislation and guidance that is applicable to all police forces.

Port of Dover Police officers have the same powers, protections and privileges as all other constables throughout the United Kingdom. Officers are appointed by two Justices of the Peace to “be constables within the limits the harbour, dock, pier and premises of the undertakers (Dover Harbour Board) and within one mile of the same”.

doverport.co.uk/about/police/

Mike-C:
If i was a betting man, then i’d lay odds that someone has reported the OP’s truck for a fail to stop RTC. And these other possible charges have not been asked about. Its transpired though enquiries that the Insurance has lapsed. Thats my bet. Probably no insurance may be the least of his worries.

To me, this is what I’d wager on too. I think theres some element of the OP’s story which is so far untold.

Roymondo:
As you quite correctly observe, it’s either in force (for that particular driver, in that particular vehicle, for that particular use) or it isn’t.

Which pretty much negates an interview then as a neccesity on the part of the OP ? And from the Police perspective why do they need a statement if an offence has been clearly comitted? This flies in the face of the new Justice system we have which pretty much equates to…we have paperwork proof an offence is comitted so pay your fine…? They want him to say more ? How much more can you get ? A suspected no Isurance either has a policy or it doesn’t . Thats why there is more to this… You’ve gone round the houses to broadly agree with me. Or, agree if a brief said it but not 'cos i said it just on speck on a “forum”. Can’t fault you for that.But as me and you both know there is a lot left out from the OP.

Me and you are giving advice from opposite ends of the spectrum. And i’m in no doubt based on previous conversations and this one too, that you where very good at your job.

I’m in no doubt. If the Police contaced me on a Prima facie case of no insurance they would not be speaking to me again under caution. The evidence would speak for itself. I’d still advocate the same to the OP.

nick2008:

Port of Dover Police complies with all national legislation and guidance that is applicable to all police forces.

Port of Dover Police officers have the same powers, protections and privileges as all other constables throughout the United Kingdom. Officers are appointed by two Justices of the Peace to “be constables within the limits the harbour, dock, pier and premises of the undertakers (Dover Harbour Board) and within one mile of the same”.

doverport.co.uk/about/police/

Nick, for the sake of brevity, i lied. I do know all about how Port Police work. How they say they work and how they do actually work are two very different things. For example…(i don’t want to de rail the thread too much !!)…
Liverpool docks has 25mph signs up, the Liverpool Port Police hide with radar guns and "catch " you doing in excess of 25mph. Who’s gonna argue ? They give you a fixed penalty and three point , courtesy of the Road Traffic Offenders Acts.
Only thing is there is no offence for flouting a 25MPH sign as there is no 25MPH limit recogised the the Road Traffic Act, so the penalty applied by the RTO act cannot apply to something outside it. Follow ? Of course local bylaws state you have to conform to signs within the Port area, thats fine. Its a Bylaw with a max penalty of £50 and no points. Guess who’s still givng out points even after my Court win more than 5 years ago ? :smiley:
But the reality is no one cares. They’ll happily pay the fines and accept points they don’t need to have because the Police gave them, they respect the Police and the paperwork they’re given and take it as gospell. And the Courts, even having heard to the contrary why they shouldn’t do it just continue to do it. Police happy, Courts happy, no one knows any different !!!

Thats how Port Police work. And to a wider extent that how the policing system we have works, no one is interested. Just let it go through the system.

firstly may I say thanks to every one that gave advice and secondly all is good the police phoned me last night to inform me all documents they required have now been emailed by the company and third to all those wondering about the missing bits of the story that led to this hole thing been a police matter ill fill in the missing bits now.
I disembarked a p&o ferry catching the side of the ramp with the back wheel of my trailer causing a blow out of the tyre , I stopped just off the boat and got out to check the damage, I was told to keep moving as I was blocking traffic so I went to the exit of the dock and waited for 3hrs for tyre to be repaired at this point all I knew was id had a blow out, fast forward nearly four weeks and kent police turn up at my door saying port of dover police (who are an independent police force with all the powers of the normal police within one mile of the port) had reported me due to damage to a sensor on the ramp and the port authorities wanted to make an insurance claim against me , which until then I had no knowledge of this ? and thats when they checked my reg against the police data base no record of insurance came up, so the only lead they had was me and my booking this is why it took them four weeks to knock on my door I gave them the details of the company and told them I had seen a valid insurance document in the truck and as far as I was concerned every thing was legal to which they replied as the driver I should of made further checks ? which is the reason I made the post to see what my extent has the driver of a truck my legal responsibility are when checking docs.

the matter is sorted now the insurance company never uploaded the information to the data base, but in future I will be taking photos of any docs in the vehicle and making sure im not put in this position again.

That makes it a bit easier to understand.
I’d still question why they came to you for the companies details instead of getting the registered owners details from the DVLA database.
Glad for you its all sorted now.

So you do your own bookings for ferry crossings in your name And not in the company’s name■■?

Mike-C:

DeeBee:
I looked up the DVSA Enforcement Sanctions policy and that shows that a driver can be fined £300 for driving without a valid insurance policy with a follow up enquiry to the operator.

I’m pretty sure thats aimed at foreign drivers as we get 7 days to produce a document ?

DeeBee:
It may well be that the ‘valid’ document you had was a fake and they are ramping up to stitch the operator to the floor but I would have thought the DVSA would have taken the lead on that rather than the police.

I’d agree something more is going on. And the big clue is that this has not come from a roadside check, appears to be a paperwork trail ?

And welcome to Trucknet :smiley: :smiley:

I had to go out yesterday so missed out on the rest of this.
To go back a bit - Mike the enforcement sanctions policy has two columns - one to deal with GB Operators or drivers and the other for Non-GB Operators or Drivers. The £300 fine applies to GB drivers, the column for Non-GB merely states ‘Inform Police’
Who I imagine would promptly turn up (if not already on site) and start imposing their own fines. Possibly immobilise the vehicle. I also think they would probably ■■■■■■ the vehicle back to port and stick it on the first ferry.

I know someone this happened to
Basically his boss had 5 trucks and a named driver per truck as was cheaper
When he swapped lorries his boss forgot to change him over to new one
Truck was impounded in london
Got it back next day when took cover note and £350release fee
At court driver wasnt prosecuted due to the employee bit above but his employer was

On another note with the amount of “self employed” drivers around now
How would this work as technically not an employee
Have known an accident at work been knocked back as driver self employed
And insurance co said not covered on the employers liability as should of had own policy

gettin-on:
On another note with the amount of “self employed” drivers around now
How would this work as technically not an employee
Have known an accident at work been knocked back as driver self employed
And insurance co said not covered on the employers liability as should of had own policy

The driver does not have to be “an employee” of the vehicle operator for the statutory defence to apply - he has to be “using the vehicle in the course of his employment”. The difference is subtle, but nonetheless significant. Compulsory employer liability insurance is not required for independent contractors - and so some insurers will specifically exclude such workers from the cover provided.

DeeBee:

Mike-C:

DeeBee:
I looked up the DVSA Enforcement Sanctions policy and that shows that a driver can be fined £300 for driving without a valid insurance policy with a follow up enquiry to the operator.

I’m pretty sure thats aimed at foreign drivers as we get 7 days to produce a document ?

DeeBee:
It may well be that the ‘valid’ document you had was a fake and they are ramping up to stitch the operator to the floor but I would have thought the DVSA would have taken the lead on that rather than the police.

I’d agree something more is going on. And the big clue is that this has not come from a roadside check, appears to be a paperwork trail ?

And welcome to Trucknet :smiley: :smiley:

I had to go out yesterday so missed out on the rest of this.
To go back a bit - Mike the enforcement sanctions policy has two columns - one to deal with GB Operators or drivers and the other for Non-GB Operators or Drivers. The £300 fine applies to GB drivers, the column for Non-GB merely states ‘Inform Police’
Who I imagine would promptly turn up (if not already on site) and start imposing their own fines. Possibly immobilise the vehicle. I also think they would probably ■■■■■■ the vehicle back to port and stick it on the first ferry.

Yes they will issue a fine based on what the computer says. In this case here computer was wrong. But as a GB resident you do not have to accept it and can walk away with the knowledge you have a summons coming your way. The same is not proffered to foreign drivers, they’ll have to leave a deposit before walking away not accepting it and electing for court. Both will still have 7 days to produce. Only one will of had to pay the “deposit”, the foreigner.

4aaaa4dd:
firstly may I say thanks to every one that gave advice and secondly all is good the police phoned me last night to inform me all documents they required have now been emailed by the company and third to all those wondering about the missing bits of the story that led to this hole thing been a police matter ill fill in the missing bits now.
I disembarked a p&o ferry catching the side of the ramp with the back wheel of my trailer causing a blow out of the tyre , I stopped just off the boat and got out to check the damage, I was told to keep moving as I was blocking traffic so I went to the exit of the dock and waited for 3hrs for tyre to be repaired at this point all I knew was id had a blow out, fast forward nearly four weeks and kent police turn up at my door saying port of dover police (who are an independent police force with all the powers of the normal police within one mile of the port) had reported me due to damage to a sensor on the ramp and the port authorities wanted to make an insurance claim against me , which until then I had no knowledge of this ? and thats when they checked my reg against the police data base no record of insurance came up, so the only lead they had was me and my booking this is why it took them four weeks to knock on my door I gave them the details of the company and told them I had seen a valid insurance document in the truck and as far as I was concerned every thing was legal to which they replied as the driver I should of made further checks ? which is the reason I made the post to see what my extent has the driver of a truck my legal responsibility are when checking docs.

the matter is sorted now the insurance company never uploaded the information to the data base, but in future I will be taking photos of any docs in the vehicle and making sure im not put in this position again.

The laughable thing about this is that we are now on heightened security of our borders mainly due to threats of terrorism. Dover Port Police take four weeks to find you even when they’ve got your registration number. IF you’d of been a terrorist taking out their CCTV cameras on purpose thene they’d have found you passport straight away and your picture would be on Sky news within three hours !!! :laughing: :laughing:

Yes, they could have traced him, had a firearms team waiting for him when he got home and had him face down on his driveway the moment he stepped out of his car. I think that would have been classed as a disproportionate response though :slight_smile: