ROG:
I was trying to work out how it could affect your normal working day which is what I read here -
dambuster:
The more I look into this whole WTRRTWTR ■■■■■■■■, over and above the breaks/max hours crap, the more I see it as worse than just an inconvenience interfering with my normal run of the mill day
How do you figure that the RT(WTD)R breaks go over & above the tacho ones which would then affect your run-of-the-mill day ■■?
I’m not sure how I can answer that in a different way to that already given.
(1) It interferes because, as you said, “in the majority of cases” To me, that means tacho breaks don’t always cover the requirements for WT. To be clear - If I can have an infringement notice for not complying with WT but not have an infringement under Drivers Hours, then the WT becomes an inconvenience. Mainly because it means WT is something else I have to consider and comply with.
Try this . . . .
There are times when I have to stop and take a break for no other reason than to comply with WT. That’s an inconvenience I could sometimes do without.
There are circumstances when it would be counter-productive to take a break too early in the day because that would force a second, inconvenient break from driving later in the day, which in turn could mean I’m 45 minutes short on reaching my preferred destination.
As far as I understand it, the whole WTRW(T)TRRTWD intention was to protect workers from unscrupulous employers The reality (for some) is that it has provided yet another spurious opportunity for prosecutions and in effect limited the amount I (and others) are able to earn.
I asked the question as it is unusual for most truckers to have to take a WT break.
It would usually mean that there is roughly a ratio of 1 ‘other work’ to every 2 driving involved.
There are times when I have to stop and take a break for no other reason than to comply with WT. That’s an inconvenience I could sometimes do without.
There are circumstances when it would be counter-productive to take a break too early in the day because that would force a second, inconvenient break from driving later in the day, which in turn could mean I’m 45 minutes short on reaching my preferred destination.
I don’t see how this is a problem. If you do have to take a WTD break before you’ve reached 4.5 hours driving then at most it will be 15 minutes, and that will also do as the first part of your tacho break. Later when you reach 4.5 hours driving you take 30 minutes and your good to go for another 4.5 hours and, except in extreme circumstances, will be good for the WTD for the rest of the day.
There are times when I have to stop and take a break for no other reason than to comply with WT. That’s an inconvenience I could sometimes do without.
There are circumstances when it would be counter-productive to take a break too early in the day because that would force a second, inconvenient break from driving later in the day, which in turn could mean I’m 45 minutes short on reaching my preferred destination.
I don’t see how this is a problem. If you do have to take a WTD break before you’ve reached 4.5 hours driving then at most it will be 15 minutes, and that will also do as the first part of your tacho break. Later when you reach 4.5 hours driving you take 30 minutes and your good to go for another 4.5 hours and, except in extreme circumstances, will be good for the WTD for the rest of the day.
Exactly.
It can be the case that WTD makes me 15 minutes late for a delivery. Although that same 15 minutes will count as the first portion of a 45, I’m still 15 minutes unnecessary late for a booking time.
15 minutes neither here nor there ■■?
Well if I’m booked somewhere at 1100 but the 1300 arrives at 1050 to be told “Can’t have you in yet, there’s an 1100 booked, but if he’s not here on time I’ll take you in”
I turn up at 1110 to find them 10 minutes into him (the early 1300) Include then the fact it’s a 3 hour tip. Whereas without the WTD I would have been coming out of there at approx 1400, I’m now looking at coming out of there at about 5 o’clock. That can make a significant difference to not only that day, but also the following day.
dambuster:
The problem with that Rog is in the way European Directives, Statutory Instruments and other “bits of legislation” are written. Most pieces of legislation, of whatever colour are often amended over time. An amendement is just that - an additional piece of legislation which changes, adds or removes the meaning of the original.
Hi dambuster, I might be able to lighten your list of legislation that you need to read.
A European Directive is simply a law passed by Europe that affects the national governments in the EU member countries. A directive sets a target and minimum requirements along with a timescale for implementation. A country may have to explain itself, or even pay a penalty, if it fails to create the legislation required by a directive.
To spot the difference between a “directive” and a ‘European Regulation,’ just look at the title…
A binding ‘Regulation’ starts with a number, followed by the year eg the drivers’ hours Regulation 561/2006.
A ‘Directive’ starts with the year, followed by a number.
For the purposes of your research, you don’t need to even look at a ‘Directive.’
dieseldave:
For the purposes of your research, you don’t need to even look at a ‘Directive.’
I hope that’s assisted your research.
Oooh no ! That boat has sailed. I found what I needed
I’ve moved on now. It could be said that I’ve “found closure”
My next “research project” is to try find a qualified reason to encourage my employer to pay better (more) than basic pay as “holiday pay” But I’m already 3 quarters of the way to conceding that one
But seriously . . . . . .
That (your post) does indeed help. When I was a lot youngerer and in a previous life it was much more simple. Leaving aside byelaws, it was just a question of learning, memorising verbatim, then actually understanding both the words and intended meaning - of various Sections of various Acts of Parliament.
dambuster:
My next “research project” is to try find a qualified reason to encourage my employer to pay better (more) than basic pay as “holiday pay” But I’m already 3 quarters of the way to conceding that one
Not sure but I may be able to help or hinder you here one of the two that is for sure.
Most employers pay 40hrs as a basic weeks holiday pay.
To calculate an average for WTD (if I understand correctly) if you take a weeks holiday the employer has to book you 48hrs.
So therefore on paper you are classed as 48hrs but only been paid 40hrs.
Not a lot of difference granted, but better than a poke in the eye.
Ben9:
Not a lot of difference granted, but better than a poke in the eye.
Some is often far better than none
I’m inclined though to go with the Employment Act about the definition of “wages” and a sort of “average calculator” I saw in there the other week used for people that earn a different amount each week/month.
I managed a minor “win” recently when they said that any bonus scheme payments could be stopped at will by them. No !! According the the Act bonus, commissions (and something else I can’t bring to mind atm) are in fact “wages” and are therefore protected in the same way regarding “illegal deductions”
*Point of order though - It’s the actual payments that are protected, not the “bonus schemes” if you follow.
dambuster:
Oh - And I think it’s 40 hours they “book” for the WTD when you have a week off
5x8 I think, otherwise it would be 9.6 for a day off.
Four weeks MUST be booked for the RT(WTD)R but the rest does not have to be by law.
Those 4 weeks must be, for the RT(WTD)R, either 48 for a full week or 8 hours for each day if not a full week.
The above has nothing to do with what is paid
Paid hours are a seperate issue to RT(WTD)R booked hours.
A RT(WTD)R week is the same as the EU drivers hours week - Mon 0000 to Sun 2400 (Sunday midnight to Sunday midnight)
You’re right ROG. It is 8 for day but yet 48 for a week I suppose that’s because 48 is the max avg. Yeah - let’s aacount for the max when they’re on holiday
You see - still more ways that drivers have the potential to have been shafted.
Not only do “we commit an offence” but our employers can’t use holidays to reduce the mickey mouse hours count
It irks me that the rest of the world and his dog are “entitled” yet we are “required”. And required on risk of possible prosecution. And even my own “Yeah but in the real world . . . . . . . blahblahblah” doesn’t ease my angst.
dambuster:
but our employers can’t use holidays to reduce the mickey mouse hours count
Not the with the first 4 weeks but they can with the other 1.6 weeks.
Those that usually have midweekly rests and take a week off would be on the daily 8 hour for RT(WTD)R as they do not have a full week (week being Mon 0000 to Sun 2400) off.
NOTE - as no authority actually keeps a check on the RT(WTD)R then who cares !!!
(unless a really serious incident occurs where tiredness may be a major factor)
