Nights out without a sleeper cab

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Harry Monk:

gardun:
I stand to be corrected, but if they are giving you “night out money” it is to pay for digs/hotel. Therefore it does not matter what truck you are driving.

If not, I’m not sure, but I’m not aware of any actual law that says you have to have a sleeper cab.

Night out money is allowed by the Inland Revenue to defray the extra costs of being away from home- eating meals at cafe prices when you could make the same meal at home for a quarter of the cost, buying drinks, telephone calls etc but it is not intended to cover the cost of accommodation.

It would be illegal to take an overnight break in a vehicle not fitted with a bed or bunk.

Gotta disagree with you here Harry, ‘Night Out Money’ is exactly what it says it is ‘Night Out Money’ or ‘subsistence allowance’ and was usually an agreed amount that could be paid to an employee who had to spend part of their working week away from home and stop in overnight accomodation ‘digs’. This was usually a sum of money that didn’t incur a tax penalty for the employer or employee and was agreed with the local tax office each year that was why different areas of the country had some drivers getting more or usually less than others for nights out.
Anything paid for costs incurred for meals other than breakfast or evening meal, only one meal cost included which used to be part of the night out allowance, is now classed as meal allowance and again is set at a cost limit depending on time spent away from base/home and again is agreed with the local tax office.

There are set limits to what employers can provide for nights out for HGV drivers and historicaly we have been at the bottom of the list if the employer can avoid paying tax on anything. IIRC when sleeper cabs started to become the norm for UK only work, late 70’s early 80’s, the IR tried unsuccessfully to bring a diifferential in tax-free night out payments for thems who had day cabs and thems who had sleeper cabs!!! :angry: :angry: Yer know the script 'Day Cab drivers should get 25p more overnight allowance because they have to find ‘proper’ digs but sleeper cab drivers should get less because they can just park up anywhere and enjoy all the luxury of their own en-suite bed and breakfast. It also became known to the IR that some drivers had even installed primitive cooking arrangements so any reimbursements for meals needed to be scrutinized closely to make sure the driver wasn’t claiming meal allowance for food that had been ‘self catered’!!

I do remember that there were some companies around at that time who actually implemented this type of scheme even though most of the drivers who had day cabs slept in them coz all the decent digs had closed down and because the haulage game was changing with containerisation and again sleeper cabs.

The reason I know some of this about the tax allowances is because between 80 - 85 I was spending most weeks away from home and because of health problems I had to follow a pretty strict vegetarian type diet so I had to buy my own food to eat whilst I was away from home :wink: :wink: but maybe my mum (RIP) working at the regional Inland Ripoff office also helped in reducing my tax bill over those years.

Also regarding daycabs and sleeping in them there is nothing in law that stops that from being done unless you are ‘double - manning’ that is the only piece of legislation that indicates that a bunk must be available and the vehicle stationary for a daily rest period to be taken. Back in the days it was mainly the union who demanded that their members went in digs, sleeper cabs or not. Was it the TGWU 651 branch from Liverpool who enforced this with a vengance? A quick memory of being on the ACL/Cunard contract out of Seaforth in the 80’s, 3 of us tipping in Glasgow and when m/t all of us told to run up to Grangemouth for reload, the Liverpool driver had to run South because his ‘digs’ were booked at Crawford even though he was driving a Volvo F10/12 sleeper he couldn’t risk being caught sleeping in the cab, not by the law, but by any other Liverpool driver and reported to the union FFS.

Anyway to summarise it does’nt matter what type of vehicle you are driving, day or sleeper cab, the employer will have an agreed tax free subsistence payment available to give you for your night away from home now if you can get a good B&B for that amount thats were you tell them you are going to head to otherwise take a pillow, your sleeping bag, a couple of thick blankets and any other bits & bats you might need to get you through.

Regards
Dave Penn;

22

If you have a night out in a vehicle with a bunk you get money for substinence food washing bedding phone etc etc there is a maximum payment for this set by the taxman.

If it does not have a bunk then you can be paid an almost unlimited amount for accomodation and meals which are booked as “expenses”

23

That is absolutely right Jammy but it will have to paid out of your own pocket to start with and anything over and above the locally agreed payments will be liable for tax from yourself & your employer and all receipts need to be kept to show the taxman at the end of the financial year. As I have said, “been there done that !”
It is a way of reducing your tax bill as a PAYE employee but it really does takes a lot of effort, time and organisation and any refund is always paid in arrears. It became too much effort for too little reward but felt good at the time :laughing: :wink:
Regards
Dave Penn;

24

Harry Monk:

gardun:
I stand to be corrected, but if they are giving you “night out money” it is to pay for digs/hotel. Therefore it does not matter what truck you are driving.

If not, I’m not sure, but I’m not aware of any actual law that says you have to have a sleeper cab.

Night out money is allowed by the Inland Revenue to defray the extra costs of being away from home- eating meals at cafe prices when you could make the same meal at home for a quarter of the cost, buying drinks, telephone calls etc but it is not intended to cover the cost of accommodation.

It would be illegal to take an overnight break in a vehicle not fitted with a bed or bunk.

That would be my take on it too Harry. Reading my ACME book of driving tips, it suggests that:

Where a daily rest period is taken, this may be taken in a vehicle, provided that it has suitable sleeping
facilities and is stationary.

Of course that same paragraph is also used under the multi manning section as well, but the fact that a single driver is attempting to sleep in a moving vehicle brings its own set of problems :laughing:

But then this bit about ferry crossings also suggests a bunk is required whether double manned or not:

A daily rest period may be interrupted no more than once, but the total interruption should be as short
as possible and must not exceed 1 hour in total.
Where the rest period is interrupted in this way:

  • the total ■■■■■■■■■■ rest period must be extended by 2 hours;
  • one part of the rest period must be taken on land, either before or after the journey (the other part
    can be taken on the ferry/train); and
  • a bunk or couchette must be available during both parts of the rest period.
25

davepenn54:
Also regarding daycabs and sleeping in them there is nothing in law that stops that from being done unless you are ‘double - manning’ that is the only piece of legislation that indicates that a bunk must be available and the vehicle stationary for a daily rest period to be taken.


Page 16 Drivers hours rules:
Where a daily rest is taken, this may be taken in a vehicle, provided that it has suitable sleeping facilities and is stationary.

Article 8.8 - REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006:
Article 8.8
8. Where a driver chooses to do this, daily rest periods and
reduced weekly rest periods away from base may be taken in a
vehicle, as long as it has suitable sleeping facilities for each
driver and the vehicle is stationary.

I think it’s reasonable to assume that “suitable sleeping facilities” means a bed or a bunk, surely we’ve gone past the days of planks of wood across the seats :wink:

26

In no way at all was I suggesting or implying that ‘suitable sleeping facilities’ be a plank across to the window and a piece of foam. A lot of daycabs can be fitted with bunks whether they are in an extension to the roof, fixed to cantilever brackets in the roof or on the back wall or with the passenger seat removed and a fold down 3/4 couchette fitted, in reallity they are still daycabs with ‘suitable sleeping facilities’ and are not illegal in any way.

. A lot of companies need to spec vehicles in a particular way that precludes the extra length of a normal sleeper cab so ways of providing ‘suitable sleeping facilities’ have been worked out, therefore we have day cabs with bunks! that are classed as providing the driver with ‘suitable sleeping facilities’. There are quite a few of this type of day cab equipped vehicles around used especially by co’s that only require the occasional night out.

I would find it hard to think that plod, vosa, hato or whoever would knock on a daycab to find out if the driver was asleep on a bunk or not ?

The OP didn’t even know whether the vehicle he would be driving was a day or sleeper cab or if he would be asked to have a night out? If he was to be asked to stop away he would, more than likely be given, or told, the agreed night out rate and how he then chose to manage that night out would be his descision. There are still some guys who do the odd night out in a day cab and that is up to them, can’t say it is something I would do, but night out money has never equalled what even a stop in a Travelodge costs plus even the cheapest TLs don’t include food and to get the cheapest deals usually you need to book online in advance, so although cheap not always feasible.
Regards
Dave Penn;

27

its ok guys, i got put up in a hotel each night, first night got put up int he quality hotel in luton, very nice room and ont he way home got a travellodge at retford

had a nice wee trip event hough the deliver in canary wharf was a nightmare.

pics later

28

Harry Monk:
Night out money is allowed by the Inland Revenue to defray the extra costs of being away from home- eating meals at cafe prices when you could make the same meal at home for a quarter of the cost, buying drinks, telephone calls etc but it is not intended to cover the cost of accommodation.

Yes it is. That is why drivers of vehicles with sleeper cabs only get 75% of the agreed rate tax free, they don’t have to pay for their digs. The full rate is paid tax free to those without a bed in the cab so they can pay for their accomodation.

Quite what sort of accomodation you can get these days for just under £7 I’m not sure and I think most drivers would negotiate with the boss.

29

Coffeeholic:

Harry Monk:
Night out money is allowed by the Inland Revenue to defray the extra costs of being away from home- eating meals at cafe prices when you could make the same meal at home for a quarter of the cost, buying drinks, telephone calls etc but it is not intended to cover the cost of accommodation.

Yes it is. That is why drivers of vehicles with sleeper cabs only get 75% of the agreed rate tax free, they don’t have to pay for their digs. The full rate is paid tax free to those without a bed in the cab so they can pay for their accomodation.

Quite what sort of accomodation you can get these days for just under £7 I’m not sure and I think most drivers would negotiate with the boss.

we didnt have to pay for our hotel rooms, and we still get night out money, plus night out money wouldnt cover either of the hotels that we stayed at, first room was something like 100 quid a night

30

Jobs gone soft