Winseer:
There seems to be some consensus that it is changing shift, rather than “graveyard start times” that causes damage to health.
I feel sorry for those people who are 14:00-02:00 one week, and then 02:00-14:00 the next - for a salary at that.
We already have some “right” to not have our shift time altered by more than “two hours, either side” - but that doesn’t seem to apply to shift changes with a 48 hour gap.
What I’d like to know however is WHY is it deemed “Necessary” to have such health-buggering shift changes as part of one’s contract - when you would be better off having one person doing permanent say, 02:00-14:00 four-on-four-off with the other side doing exactly the opposite shift? That way, there’s the same number of jobs created, thus costing the firm “no extra” - but everyone knows what they are doing weeks and months and the ENTIRE YEAR in advance, to facilitate holiday and family event bookings etc…
“Overtime” - would always be “extra shifts” rather than “finishing one shift later”, which would probably sit better with employers reluctant to dish out such contracts in case “staff hang it out for more overtime”.
There’s still going to be a limit on overtime - over the 17 or 26 week reference period in any case - so what’s all the reluctance really about??
Ironically 4 on 4 off is exactly the type of pattern which would predictably create a dangerous body clock issue with drivers continuously trying to revert to sleeping at night to make use of the pointless 4 nights off.2 months nights 1 month off 2 months days - etc would be far more beneficial.Agency work not permanent obviously being the best way of delivering that type of rota among the numerous different types of operations day v night.
Having worked 15 years of permanent night trunking you really haven’t got a clue of the logistics involved.Let me guess you’re quite happy for your train driver mates to carry on working nights while crippling the road transport industry by applying all the usual double standards.As I said there is nothing wrong with night work just so long as you sleep properly during the day and you’re not switching from day shifts to night shifts in a way which dangerously affects the body clock.
The only problem then being quality of life issues in that time off is ruined because you can’t change your body clock from nights to days and back over a short period.In which case the example I gave fixes that in looking after the interests of both the industry and its workforce as usual in the form of a proper rota.Possibly even improved by doubling all those periods I gave to two months nights one month off,two months days etc etc.But what is certain is that the industry can’t possibly remain viable without plenty of night trunking type operations.Just as the rail transport and air transport operations involve massive amounts of essential night time movements.
I don’t know why this always goes back to the railways with you!
I haven’t said there is anything wrong with night work, in that I acknowledge there will always be some work that needs to be done at night and some who really are happy to do it.
It’s simply not something that the vast majority of people choose to do, it’s not considered physically healthy, it’s not typically socially healthy, and we can’t all be dragged into night work simply so the employers can save the cost of employing more day men to build trucks or warehouse bays or roads or whatever which increase the capacity to perform logistics work during the day.
Having worked 15 years of permanent night trunking you really haven’t got a clue of the logistics involved.Let me guess you’re quite happy for your train driver mates to carry on working nights while crippling the road transport industry by applying all the usual double standards.As I said there is nothing wrong with night work just so long as you sleep properly during the day and you’re not switching from day shifts to night shifts in a way which dangerously affects the body clock.
The only problem then being quality of life issues in that time off is ruined because you can’t change your body clock from nights to days and back over a short period.In which case the example I gave fixes that in looking after the interests of both the industry and its workforce as usual in the form of a proper rota.Possibly even improved by doubling all those periods I gave to two months nights one month off,two months days etc etc.But what is certain is that the industry can’t possibly remain viable without plenty of night trunking type operations.Just as the rail transport and air transport operations involve massive amounts of essential night time movements.
I don’t know why this always goes back to the railways with you!
I haven’t said there is anything wrong with night work, in that I acknowledge there will always be some work that needs to be done at night and some who really are happy to do it.
It’s simply not something that the vast majority of people choose to do, it’s not considered physically healthy, it’s not typically socially healthy, and we can’t all be dragged into night work simply so the employers can save the cost of employing more day men to build trucks or warehouse bays or roads or whatever which increase the capacity to perform logistics work during the day.
Ironically night trunk operations aren’t generally in place to make use of the relatively less populated roads that’s just a bonus.It’s all about time and your nightmare vision,of doubling the amount of the country buried under roads and warehouses,luckily isn’t going to work because what’s needed to abolish night work is a 48 hour day and a 14 day week.
Much better to just adapt the way we work to minimise those downsides and we won’t do that with the present system of either permanent night/day work or ridiculously and dangerously alternating shift patterns.So there we have it agency work actually wins out in that type of smart working environment.Providing the required flexibility to work between different night and day operations and a civilised amount of time off to adjust the body clock between night and day working.
Winseer:
There seems to be some consensus that it is changing shift, rather than “graveyard start times” that causes damage to health.
I feel sorry for those people who are 14:00-02:00 one week, and then 02:00-14:00 the next - for a salary at that.
We already have some “right” to not have our shift time altered by more than “two hours, either side” - but that doesn’t seem to apply to shift changes with a 48 hour gap.
What I’d like to know however is WHY is it deemed “Necessary” to have such health-buggering shift changes as part of one’s contract - when you would be better off having one person doing permanent say, 02:00-14:00 four-on-four-off with the other side doing exactly the opposite shift? That way, there’s the same number of jobs created, thus costing the firm “no extra” - but everyone knows what they are doing weeks and months and the ENTIRE YEAR in advance, to facilitate holiday and family event bookings etc…
“Overtime” - would always be “extra shifts” rather than “finishing one shift later”, which would probably sit better with employers reluctant to dish out such contracts in case “staff hang it out for more overtime”.
There’s still going to be a limit on overtime - over the 17 or 26 week reference period in any case - so what’s all the reluctance really about??
Ironically 4 on 4 off is exactly the type of pattern which would predictably create a dangerous body clock issue with drivers continuously trying to revert to sleeping at night to make use of the pointless 4 nights off.2 months nights 1 month off 2 months days - etc would be far more beneficial.Agency work not permanent obviously being the best way of delivering that type of rota among the numerous different types of operations day v night.
Erm… Nope. On my days off, I still like to be in bed by elevenses…
I’ve been pretty much flat out the past year, and the last time I had to put in an “early” shift at agency - was for my assessment/induction exactly a year ago.
I won’t do am starts - except on a “Needs must” basis. That’s it. No dodgy shift-changing all the time for me - ever!
Carryfast:
Ironically 4 on 4 off is exactly the type of pattern which would predictably create a dangerous body clock issue with drivers continuously trying to revert to sleeping at night to make use of the pointless 4 nights off.2 months nights 1 month off 2 months days - etc would be far more beneficial.Agency work not permanent obviously being the best way of delivering that type of rota among the numerous different types of operations day v night.
Erm… Nope. On my days off, I still like to be in bed by elevenses…
I’ve been pretty much flat out the past year, and the last time I had to put in an “early” shift at agency - was for my assessment/induction exactly a year ago.
I won’t do am starts - except on a “Needs must” basis. That’s it. No dodgy shift-changing all the time for me - ever!
If you’re trying to go from 11 pm ?,that obviously being mid morning for the purposes of your body clock,to then going to bed to sleep at that time and then revert to the former all within 4 days,you’re going to be a dangerous liability on the road at any time between around midnight to 6 am during the working week.The fact is to be able to do that you must still be in daytime mode through the whole 8 day period.
On that note returning to work after a holiday was sometimes the most difficult for me.I can remember having to stop at Chievely services on the first night back after a 3 week holiday,on the second return run back from Bristol to Feltham,at around 3 am,because I was too knackered to get any further.I can remember driving off the motorway and into the services and that was it I can’t remember parking it among the other trucks.But when I woke up a few hours later I had obviously somehow got the thing into one of the few spaces on auto pilot and I just fell asleep without even bothering to leave the driving seat and use the bunk.Then for a minute I couldn’t remember how I’d got there or why or my way out. I got back at around 8 am and called a lazy zb by the laughing guvnors and I think all the next day deliveries on there were a service failure got back too late for transhipment onto the C and D’s.
Winseer:
Erm… Nope. On my days off, I still like to be in bed by elevenses…
I keep the same night shift sleep pattern when I’m on my days off with the exception of when I’m going away for a week or whatever with the family. Many of the night drivers I work with go onto a day walker sleep pattern on a weekend. Personally I can’t do that any more as I just end up feeling like utter crap all of the time. I used to be able to flip between days and nights easily and would think nothing of working days and nights in the same week but as I’ve got older it has got harder and now I refuse to do it. If they want me to do a day run it is on the understanding I’m on days the whole week.
Winseer:
Erm… Nope. On my days off, I still like to be in bed by elevenses…
I keep the same night shift sleep pattern when I’m on my days off with the exception of when I’m going away for a week or whatever with the family. Many of the night drivers I work with go onto a day walker sleep pattern on a weekend. Personally I can’t do that any more as I just end up feeling like utter crap all of the time. I used to be able to flip between days and nights easily and would think nothing of working days and nights in the same week but as I’ve got older it has got harder and now I refuse to do it. If they want me to do a day run it is on the understanding I’m on days the whole week.
Yeh, that’s about it for me as well. Changing shift for me is like severe jet lag. It’s easier to sleep late on my days off, and I don’t bother going onto “days” unless I’m off work for two weeks with my family. I dunno about it getting harder as I get older, but I find driving in day traffic more stressful as I get older… Went down the M1 near luton yesterday, first time down that stretch during morning rush hour for more than a decade… F— me - isn’t it busier now!!
Winseer:
Erm… Nope. On my days off, I still like to be in bed by elevenses…
I keep the same night shift sleep pattern when I’m on my days off with the exception of when I’m going away for a week or whatever with the family. Many of the night drivers I work with go onto a day walker sleep pattern on a weekend. Personally I can’t do that any more as I just end up feeling like utter crap all of the time. I used to be able to flip between days and nights easily and would think nothing of working days and nights in the same week but as I’ve got older it has got harder and now I refuse to do it. If they want me to do a day run it is on the understanding I’m on days the whole week.
Yeh, that’s about it for me as well. Changing shift for me is like severe jet lag. It’s easier to sleep late on my days off, and I don’t bother going onto “days” unless I’m off work for two weeks with my family. I dunno about it getting harder as I get older, but I find driving in day traffic more stressful as I get older… Went down the M1 near luton yesterday, first time down that stretch during morning rush hour for more than a decade… F— me - isn’t it busier now!!
If I read it right you were saying you try to revert to a night time sleep pattern during the 4 nights off of a 4 on 4 off shift pattern ?. But then seem to agree that 2 or even 4 off isn’t enough to make that change.Which obviously makes 4 on 4 off on nights a liability not an asset.
As for the M1 let’s just say you didn’t want to be running late on the run back to Feltham in the morning from Dewsbury for example and that was 20 and even 30 years ago.Even from Milton Keynes Southbound was bad then it just got worse.So it’s anyone’s guess what it’s like now between around 6-8 am especially from Luton to the M25 let alone the M25 to Heathrow exit.
Spinonit:
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that tho, does? If you (company) are paying your workers better rates for less hours, there’s only a couple of outcomes; higher consumer prices, less workforce, and/or more zero hours contracts.
I don’t see why higher consumer prices is a problem. It isn’t the responsibility of workers on low wages to subsidise the low-cost purchases of rich consumers, and because the cost of production consists not just of wages but also capital and various forms of rent and unearned income, an increase in wages never causes an equal rise in consumer prices.
To give you an obvious example, doubling the wages of bricklayers does not make houses cost twice as much, because a significant part (perhaps the majority) of the cost of a house is the land whose price is determined by the law (and the existence of rent controls which favour the interests of workers above landowners), not by the cost of production (since plain land is not produced by workers anyway, it is a part of the resources of the natural world).
Indeed, with rented homes, the actual cost of production may have been small and repaid long ago, and the current rents are entirely those attributable to claims for unearned income by landlords and mortgage lenders.
Or looking at it a slightly different way, how about less money for the bosses so the workers get a living/decent wage. I’m sick to death of hearing that if the workers get more money it will instantly lead to an increase in prices, How about the bosses/shareholders take some responsiblity for the benefit of society in general, not just maximising their returns, even Henry Ford realised that giving workers real decent wages benefited everyone, when he put wages up, he sold more cars, his workers could afford to buy Ford cars, win win!
“A jobs exchange where Fred, an accountant living in Northampton, but working in Luton can swap jobs with Jane, an accountant living in Luton, but working in London, and Deirdre - an accountant living in London whom her office posts to Northampton most days”… Think about it…
SURELY the vast majority of “rush hour traffic” on our roads - are people that live in one town, but do a generic job in another - i.e. “commuters”…
We need better orgnaization of what companies call “HR” then eh■■?
Think of the money it would save everyone, upset on the roads averted, - not to mention the environmental damage that NO longer happens as a result of "culling thousands of basically unnecessary journeys each and every day?
But then seem to agree that 2 or even 4 off isn’t enough to make that change.Which obviously makes 4 on 4 off on nights a liability not an asset.