ROG:
Welcome to TrucknetUK gpc273
Good to have an examiner on board (if you are not kidding).
DSA examiner - LGV? PCV? Car? M/C?
Rog, I do all tests less M/C. Far to cold in winter for that.
Anytime I can offer assistance Iām only to happy.
Anytime I can offer assistance Iām only to happy.
Thatās a very kind offer and I am sure it is well meant but the problem that I have found on many occasions is that all examiners have their own personal āfailā ppoints that dont always mastch up with the other examiners.
I got tired of telling my trainees that if you get examiner a then get your foot down but if you get examiner B then keep it a gentle sunday drive.
Examiner C likes plenty of mirrors while examiner D hates you getting anywhere near the kerb etc etc.
It would be great if you all sang from the same hymn sheet.But going back to the original post, If the gear change exersise is scrapped and they are now (so I hear) talking of not bothering with the braking exersise as all the trucks have ABS, and in my neck of the woods they do not do the Hill Start - as there are no hills on the test routes ā¦exactly why are we paying Ā£89 for a test??
I dont think we are geting our monies worth at all. Half the test is out of the window - so why not just chuck the driver out to work and let him learn the hard way - at the expense of all other road users.ā ā ?
I would like to see the test tightened up not slackened off.
There are enough accidents out there involving trucks without us adding more half trained drivers.
Possibly the ulimate question for you gpc273
How would you like the DSA LGV test to be carried out and what criteria would you include 
i would like to see a different approach to the reversing exercise, that more resembles what happens in the real world.
Maybe a replication of a RDC?, Has anyone ever put a vehicle in a situation such as the present test envisagesā ā ?
The current time for a cat C will increase to 70 minutes in the near future, canāt recall the exact date, but I can check when I go back to work. That will allow for a longer drive on the road, so as examiners weāll be able to use longer routes which gives us more time to look at a candidate.
I would also like to take delegated examiners out of testing completely as I donāt believe they are impartial enough.
Mothertrucker:
Anytime I can offer assistance Iām only to happy.
Thatās a very kind offer and I am sure it is well meant but the problem that I have found on many occasions is that all examiners have their own personal āfailā ppoints that dont always mastch up with the other examiners.
I got tired of telling my trainees that if you get examiner a then get your foot down but if you get examiner B then keep it a gentle sunday drive.
Examiner C likes plenty of mirrors while examiner D hates you getting anywhere near the kerb etc etc.
It would be great if you all sang from the same hymn sheet.But going back to the original post, If the gear change exersise is scrapped and they are now (so I hear) talking of not bothering with the braking exersise as all the trucks have ABS, and in my neck of the woods they do not do the Hill Start - as there are no hills on the test routes ā¦exactly why are we paying Ā£89 for a test??
I dont think we are geting our monies worth at all. Half the test is out of the window - so why not just chuck the driver out to work and let him learn the hard way - at the expense of all other road users.ā ā ?
I would like to see the test tightened up not slackened off.
There are enough accidents out there involving trucks without us adding more half trained drivers.
Whilst I canāt comment on how other examiners test I would say that we should be all singing of the same hymnsheet, but there will always be a human element involved.
I havenāt heard about the braking exercise but if it could be bought into line with the car test which is 1 in 3ā ā ?
If you donāt have any hills then the hillstart becomes another normal stop, but I donāt see why we carryout a downhill anymore. Take that away and give the candidate more driving time, which is coming for cat C.
I have followed this thread with interest and as a trainee having just failed my first test, I would like to throw my pennies worth in if I may?
To me the reversing was a good exercise in that it showed to the examiner that i could just do that and I thought getting it up straight would have been an adequate exercise. But, I could not see the point of getting the end inside the marked area, in real life surely someone would be there to see you in or if not then you wouldnāt be restricted to getting out of the vehicle just once?! To put matters even more farcial, the vehicle I used had a little marker on the wheel hub so i could line up the end properly, so if this is allowed by the test centre what was I achieving?
The gear change/hill start and downhill I would have thought would be again useful to the examiner as it again shows the correct use. So why get rid of the gear change? it surely shows to the examiner that the trainee is looking at his speed gauge and listening to the engine before taking action.
So thereās the thoughts of a traineeā¦please treat me kindly! 
Christian:
I have followed this thread with interest and as a trainee having just failed my first test, I would like to throw my pennies worth in if I may?To me the reversing was a good exercise in that it showed to the examiner that i could just do that and I thought getting it up straight would have been an adequate exercise. But, I could not see the point of getting the end inside the marked area, in real life surely someone would be there to see you in or if not then you wouldnāt be restricted to getting out of the vehicle just once?! To put matters even more farcial, the vehicle I used had a little marker on the wheel hub so i could line up the end properly, so if this is allowed by the test centre what was I achieving?
The gear change/hill start and downhill I would have thought would be again useful to the examiner as it again shows the correct use. So why get rid of the gear change? it surely shows to the examiner that the trainee is looking at his speed gauge and listening to the engine before taking action.So thereās the thoughts of a traineeā¦please treat me kindly!
Sorry mate but the reverse exercise isnt really that relistic of what you will find once you get the magic bit of paper. Ok it proves you can do it but out in the real world suddenly you have to reverse into yards from the road, get yourself in a tight area and need to turn round etc. soon have to learn blind side reversing of which you do none on the current test. But one bonus with the current isā¦ you pass then go learn on your own! LOL
gpc273:
The current time for a cat C will increase to 70 minutes in the near future, canāt recall the exact date, but I can check when I go back to work. That will allow for a longer drive on the road, so as examiners weāll be able to use longer routes which gives us more time to look at a candidate.
I would also like to take delegated examiners out of testing completely as I donāt believe they are impartial enough.
I have a favourite, if not completely true, saying - āThe DSA test for procedures, not safe drivingā 
An obvious comparison would be Australia where the examiner says to the candidate āI know that you can drive cos you got a car licence, so show me that you can handle this lorry safelyā. There are no procedures, just plain common sense safe driving and in most cases the āmarking sheetā is only there to assist the examiner to remember something, not as a test sheet.
The views of the instructor may also be ātaken into considerationā which is useful as the examiner may have a candidate who gives one safe drive but all through their training was dangerous or a candidate who was fantastic during training but went to pieces on a āTESTā.
Do you ever invisage the DSA/DfT going down the common sense safe driving route for those who are just upgrading their licences or do you think that the DSA/DfT will always be a law unto themselves
How about the C test having a commercial right turn reverse - it would be ātrue lifeā as many drivers have to turn around as part of their daily job
HPT - another stupid and ridiculous invention especially for seasoned drivers - it is of NO USE to them (and from what I can gather, not much use to new car drivers as they treat it as a video game 
) they learn NOTHING from it. The theory questions are good and increasing them is a good idea but PLEASE PLEASE scrap the HPT.
I would like to see the āHi matey, give me a safe & realistic driveā attitude rather than the present format. Lorry drivers DO inconvenience others at roundabouts to get on with their job BUT they do not act DANGEROUSLY in doing so - just one example of the DSA to REAL LIFE situations.
Be interested to receive you thoughts on the above - and anyone elses as well
To me the reversing was a good exercise in that it showed to the examiner that i could just do that and I thought getting it up straight would have been an adequate exercise. But, I could not see the point of getting the end inside the marked area, in real life surely someone would be there to see you in or if not then you wouldnāt be restricted to getting out of the vehicle just once?! To put matters even more farcial, the vehicle I used had a little marker on the wheel hub so i could line up the end properly, so if this is allowed by the test centre what was I achieving?
The reverse exercise is good enough to allow the trainee to demonstrate that he/she has the right idea about which way to steer and keep control of the trailer. Agreed that when out working this particular move will only be one of many, but the idea is to show the examiner that you do know how to shift the trailer safely from one point to another and put it wherever you want it.
in real life surely someone would be there to see you in or if not then you wouldnāt be restricted to getting out of the vehicle just once?! To put matters even more farcial, the vehicle I used had a little marker on the wheel hub so i could line up the end properly, so if this is allowed by the test centre what was I achieving?
What is a huge mistake is to presume that when out in the real world there will be a nice man to see you back and tell you when to stop
You are the driver, you asre responsible for reversing safely and you should be 100% certain that you can put that vehicle exactly where it needs to be and to rely on someone else is nothing less than irresponsible - unless you know and trust that person extremely well.
I personally would never rely on another persons judgement when either reversing, pulling out onto a road or in any other way when I am driving.
As for the marker on the wheel hub, you will find that all drivers have some sort of marker or guide line that they can use as a rule of thumb to tell them exactly where the far rear end of their trailer is.
The more experienced the driver the more little tricks of the trade they have to make life easier - and safer.
HPT - another stupid and ridiculous invention
I have heard that to pass the HPT the best thing to do is to click the mouse every 7 seconds. Apparantly this is fail safe
Does anybody have any ideas on this. (Will somebody please try it out and let me know?!)
Just curious 
I only passed my test at the begining of the month, but i agree it would make more sense to do it in a fully laden vehicle rather than empty one.
It`s not very realistic to expect the test to reflect on all the situations you will face in as a lgv driver. As in all careers, passing the exam is just the begining.
As for the HPT its a good idea imo. I keep reading people complaining that as an experienced driver their reactions are too quick too score in the window , maybe that because they click on a possible hazard not a developing hazard 
.
rog has it in one.i am out of the loop realy as i took my test in 73 pssed first time ,but for what its worth to drive truck you realy should be quite a good car driver ie road craft ect so as rog says put examiner in load her up give him a safe ride and bingo theres your ticket
forgott to add put dvds and hpt whatever they are in bin
gpc273:
So who are you ?Sorry Simon forgot to answer your first question, Iām a DSA examiner.
No incoming
Welcome to TruckNet UK.
I hope you understand why I asked the question.
After all, that was your first post.
gpc273:
Really? Guess you shouldnāt take everything at face value and dig a little deeper, eh?
I say it will, because it will, the official letters have already been sent out to examiners.
I DID dig deeper, by asking you how you know and could make that statement.
gpc273:
And I know of several trucks on LGV tests using 3 over 3 boxes. And a renault with a straight 6 with a splitter ( only 6 gears really) but the complexity meets the new regulations.
I take it thatāll be a 3 over 3 with splitter Giving a total of 12 forward ratios so complex enough for the new regs, the same as that Renault box.
Your interpretation of those boxes is that theyāre only a 6 ratio box (with a splitter).
The DSA seems to see them as 12 ratio boxes.
It would have been clearer if you had explained that in the beginning.
Simon:
Your interpretation of those boxes is that theyāre only a 6 ratio box (with a splitter).
The DSA seems to see them as 12 ratio boxes.
Depending on terminology, is it fair to say that both interpretations might be correct
Iām old enough to remember driving a beautiful (not 
) wee beastie called a Leyland Boxer. (Old HGV 3) That had 12 forward gears. IIRC, the trick was that it was a 6-speed gearbox with the āsplitterā function being performed elsewhere.
Again IIRC, that was known as an Eaton 2-speed axle.
Not having the current guidelines, Iād like to ask gpc273 whether a range-change is specifically required
Iād also like to ask gpc273 what is the DSAās view regarding double de-clutching
{ No need to get all excited guys, Iām not re-opening the old thread 
Iām just curious to know what the DSAās view is. }
dieseldave:
Simon:
Your interpretation of those boxes is that theyāre only a 6 ratio box (with a splitter).
The DSA seems to see them as 12 ratio boxes.Depending on terminology, is it fair to say that both interpretations might be correct
.
Yes Dave, however gpc, in his first post said
gpc273:
Who syas you have to have 8 gears, thats bull. Volvos (FLās I think) have only 6 gears, 3 over 3, and thats fine for test purposes. Its all about the range /splitter change
.
So it seems that he doesnāt accept that, although I could be reading him wrongly. 
dieseldave:
Iām old enough to remember driving a beautiful (not
Again IIRC, that was known as an Eaton 2-speed axle.Not having the current guidelines, Iād like to ask gpc273 whether a range-change is specifically required
Current Guidelines Simply say
The vehicle should have at least eight forward ratios
dieseldave:
Iād also like to ask gpc273 what is the DSAās view regarding double de-clutching{
I thought that had been dropped from the test some time ago, but it isnāt something I keep up with in particular, so could easily be errrrrm, differently correct (to plagiarise Coffeeholics phrase)
Simon:
Yes Dave, however gpc, in his first post saidgpc273:
Who syas you have to have 8 gears, thats bull. Volvos (FLās I think) have only 6 gears, 3 over 3, and thats fine for test purposes. Its all about the range /splitter change.
So it seems that he doesnāt accept that, although I could be reading him wrongly.
Now this is very interesting. 3 over 3 makes six, even at my abysmal standard of maths.
Iām fairly sure that gpc273 is right about the FL wendyhouse though.
IIRC, it was the 360hp FL10 that had the 3 over 3 box, whereas the 320hp version had a 4 over 4 box as in this pic:
The link you provided clearly says exactly what you quote below. I noticed that thereās no mention of how the 8 forward ratios are to be achieved ie. range-change or splitter. Six is clearly less than eight, so itāll be interesting to see gpc273ās response. Keeping an open mind tells me that the 6 gear rule might be mentioned in the letter to Examiners, to which we arenāt privy at the moment.
I noticed that the very bottom of the linked page says:
Page last updated: 24/08/2007
So the date of the letter might well be more recent.
I guess weāll have to keep watching this spaceā¦
Simon:
Current Guidelines Simply sayThe vehicle should have at least eight forward ratios
Simon:
dieseldave:
Iād also like to ask gpc273 what is the DSAās view regarding double de-clutching{
I thought that had been dropped from the test some time ago, but it isnāt something I keep up with in particular, so could easily be errrrrm, differently correct
I was trying to find out whether itās āallowed,ā rather than ārequired.ā Just in case a vehicle used for test has a tired gearboxā¦
Sorry for any unclarity or differently incorrectness 
Sorry Guys been away.
Simon, I probably didnāt explain it to well, the regs say at least 8 forward ratios.
The FL (aas an example) with 3 over 3 gives 12 forward ratios, the 6 full gears and as you can split high and low in each full gear, that makes the full 12 forward ratios.
I have had people on test double declutching, there isnāt a rule against it per se, what I would say though if its a modern vehicle why bother.
I have seen people ādoublingā with no problem at all and then others who due to test nerves etc get it completely Fād up. These have mostly been older guys who are upgrading.
I realise most schools wonāt teach it nowadays and its just the old ā ā ā ā ā and those with knackered trucks who pay it any heedā¦
Mothertrucker:
HPT - another stupid and ridiculous invention
I have heard that to pass the HPT the best thing to do is to click the mouse every 7 seconds. Apparantly this is fail safe
Does anybody have any ideas on this. (Will somebody please try it out and let me know?!)
That method would be detected as āmethod clickingā and give a zero score for each clip it was attempted on.
[
I have a favourite, if not completely true, saying - āThe DSA test for procedures, not safe drivingā An obvious comparison would be Australia where the examiner says to the candidate āI know that you can drive cos you got a car licence, so show me that you can handle this lorry safelyā. There are no procedures, just plain common sense safe driving and in most cases the āmarking sheetā is only there to assist the examiner to remember something, not as a test sheet.
The views of the instructor may also be ātaken into considerationā which is useful as the examiner may have a candidate who gives one safe drive but all through their training was dangerous or a candidate who was fantastic during training but went to pieces on a āTESTā.
Do you ever invisage the DSA/DfT going down the common sense safe driving route for those who are just upgrading their licences or do you think that the DSA/DfT will always be a law unto themselves
How about the C test having a commercial right turn reverse - it would be ātrue lifeā as many drivers have to turn around as part of their daily job
HPT - another stupid and ridiculous invention especially for seasoned drivers - it is of NO USE to them (and from what I can gather, not much use to new car drivers as they treat it as a video game ) they learn NOTHING from it. The theory questions are good and increasing them is a good idea but PLEASE PLEASE scrap the HPT.
I would like to see the āHi matey, give me a safe & realistic driveā attitude rather than the present format. Lorry drivers DO inconvenience others at roundabouts to get on with their job BUT they do not act DANGEROUSLY in doing so - just one example of the DSA to REAL LIFE situations.
Be interested to receive you thoughts on the above - and anyone elses as well
[/quote]
Rog,
Iām just a lowly examiner on the front line. I agree the test needs to move forward and be more in line with todays driving and roads. I know that there are talks to do this but i havenāt a clue when itāll happen.
Having never been to Austrailia I canāt compare, how busy are their roads? Do all their ADIās/ Instructors have the intregrity to deliver this? But in essence the test needs to reflect modern times.