More media HGV bashing

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Erm, does my lorry do £39,675.50 in damage a year to the roads then? Christ, I didn’t realise it was that high.

That number includes:

£1800 a quarter in VAT paid to HMRC (Approx)
£0.5795 per litre of diesel a week based on 750l a week used. Conservative as most weeks Ill put in about 1000l.
£9,875 in employer and employee tax and NI contributions for a single driver on a salary of £30,000 a year.

Note I haven’t included VED, O-Licence charges, MOT fees, £500 a year in tolls per vehicle for the dartford and severn bridges.

But even if Ms. Delusional was right, there is noting to be done about it because as Albion said above, increasing the cost for lorries to use the road will also in crease the cost of getting plant and materials to the resurfacing site which means that we will then be accused of jacking up the prices of essential works, no doubt by Ms Delusional, and all for personal gain! Not at all because we’ve been attacked again by ungrateful whelps who don’t care how it gets to the shelves, provided we do it for free and without murdering baby seals.

Oh dear, I think Ms. Delusional may have hit one of my buttons.

22

Some interesting wee nuggets in there.
Only a quick Saturday morning coffee top up produced this:

“Only a third (34 per cent) of HGVs are full in terms of load volume.”
So, to increase load volume we should fill tautliners top-to bottom and front-to-back, then.
That`ll go well with brick hauliers.

“Almost another third (30 per cent) are driving around completely empty – a figure that’s been growing for some years”
That isnt good obviously. And it always has been a problem backloading fuel tankers hasnt it?
But to be less flippant, it seems empty running has increased from 27% 2006 to 30% 2016. assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -2016.pdf7.
Why? It is in no “general” hauliers interest to run vehicles empty unnecessarily> maybe its more specialist vehicles in use? If you have a mesh sided truck with a crane for our bricks, you want tha vehicle back to load more bricks. You wont want it doing timber backloads. Maybe there is less general work and more specialization now?
Containers often go back empty to port. Part of our trade deficit problem of course.
Without suggesting reasons for this increase in empty running it`s difficult to see what point is being made?

“unnecessary lorry journeys to feed our shopping habits”
Amen to that. We only do what is asked of us by society, as others have already said. You dont buy it, we wont haul it.

“Germany had similar empty lorry levels to the UK. In Austria, per km charging for trucks reduced the percentage of empty vehicles from 21 per cent to 16 per cent. Average loads grew by 0.6 tonnes, to 14,7 tonnes, between 1999 and 2004.”
Correlation is not causation.
Wasn` that when The eastern Eu countries were joining the EU, with a corresponding increase in trade? So with more loaded trucks transiting Germany there is a possible cause for said decrease in empty running.

“In fact HGVs only cover one ninth of their road damage costs.”
2014/15
Highways Agency (only) spending £663m
Local Roads (2017) £1,900m
Fuel duty receipts (total) £27,000m
About one third of fuel is used by trucks, so £9,000m

Truck fuel duty £9,000m
Road cost £2,500m
Hhmmm.

I haven`t been trawling around the net, cherry-picking figures, those came up on a quick search. Links below.

racfoundation.org/wp-conten … e_2013.pdf
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … t_2012.pdf
localgov.co.uk/Road-mainten … cade/44564

Coffee drunk, crumpets toasted and eaten…lovely.

Edit-typo

23

In fact our latest report, which uses government values

When the full costs of HGVs are taken into account that equates to a £6bn a year taxpayer subsidy.

And the Rail industry gots £4bn in subsidies last year, plus nearly another £1bn for HS2.

Which I’m sure will work out far more per freight tonne/mile and passenger/mile than goverment money spent on the road network.

24

Franglais:
“Almost another third (30 per cent) are driving around completely empty – a figure that’s been growing for some years”

I imagine that the percentage of empty running of freight trains is more than the 30% this silly girl quotes for road, unless they count a train of emoty containers as ‘loaded’.

The railfreight industry is not half as environmentally-friendly as it may like to think. It uses diesel engines for hundreds of miles when there are perfectly usable electric wires strung up, and at the same time there is a yard full of electric locomotives in Crewe that are slowly rotting away. Its most dominant type of diesel locomotive is powered by a two-stroke that uses decades-old basic technology. There are locomotives with 1950s-era engines still in use, the kind that produce a cloud of smoke that would put any Gardner to shame when opened up. And what’s more, several of these heaps of ■■■■ have been pulled from preserved lines, rebuilt and put back into service over recent years.

Were it minded to, the RHA or similar could pick the railfreight lobby up on any of the above, but that would be too easy, and take time away from the more noble cause of expecting the taxpayer to subsidise low wages for drivers.

25

Only one solution which will keep the Truck bashers and the railways happy, build a rail line to all premises in the Uk. Simples.

26

I probably only load back about 10% of the time at the most, and that’s usually something coming back for repair from the place we delivered to.

I’m not going to load some poor paying freight on a specialised truck with two UK paid drivers, that then takes forever to offload meaning I miss out on a decent load, and then takes five months to get paid. I used to backload but gave up in the mid 2000s when the rates dropped so much it became more sensible to bring trucks back into the UK empty.

27

albion:
I probably only load back about 10% of the time at the most, and that’s usually something coming back for repair from the place we delivered to.

I’m not going to load some poor paying freight on a specialised truck with two UK paid drivers, that then takes forever to offload meaning I miss out on a decent load, and then takes five months to get paid. I used to backload but gave up in the mid 2000s when the rates dropped so much it became more sensible to bring trucks back into the UK empty.

Specialized vehicle, with specialist trained crew, (who even work in the rain!) makes perfect sense to come back empty.

28

I buy them rain proof jackets franglais, living the dream and all that gubbins :smiley:

29

albion:
I buy them rain proof jackets franglais, living the dream and all that gubbins :smiley:

You spoil them lads. :laughing:

30

muckles:

albion:
I buy them rain proof jackets franglais, living the dream and all that gubbins :smiley:

You spoil them lads. :laughing:

And I tell them. :wink: They’ve even got a pay rise this week. Without asking. I’m going soft :smiling_imp:

31

Franglais:
Some interesting wee nuggets in there.
Only a quick Saturday morning coffee top up produced this:

“Only a third (34 per cent) of HGVs are full in terms of load volume.”
So, to increase load volume we should fill tautliners top-to bottom and front-to-back, then.
That`ll go well with brick hauliers.

“Almost another third (30 per cent) are driving around completely empty – a figure that’s been growing for some years”
That isnt good obviously. And it always has been a problem backloading fuel tankers hasnt it?
But to be less flippant, it seems empty running has increased from 27% 2006 to 30% 2016. assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -2016.pdf7.
Why? It is in no “general” hauliers interest to run vehicles empty unnecessarily> maybe its more specialist vehicles in use? If you have a mesh sided truck with a crane for our bricks, you want tha vehicle back to load more bricks. You wont want it doing timber backloads. Maybe there is less general work and more specialization now?
Containers often go back empty to port. Part of our trade deficit problem of course.
Without suggesting reasons for this increase in empty running it`s difficult to see what point is being made?

“unnecessary lorry journeys to feed our shopping habits”
Amen to that. We only do what is asked of us by society, as others have already said. You dont buy it, we wont haul it.

“Germany had similar empty lorry levels to the UK. In Austria, per km charging for trucks reduced the percentage of empty vehicles from 21 per cent to 16 per cent. Average loads grew by 0.6 tonnes, to 14,7 tonnes, between 1999 and 2004.”
Correlation is not causation.
Wasn` that when The eastern Eu countries were joining the EU, with a corresponding increase in trade? So with more loaded trucks transiting Germany there is a possible cause for said decrease in empty running.

“In fact HGVs only cover one ninth of their road damage costs.”
2014/15
Highways Agency (only) spending £663m
Local Roads (2017) £1,900m
Fuel duty receipts (total) £27,000m
About one third of fuel is used by trucks, so £9,000m

Truck fuel duty £9,000m
Road cost £2,500m
Hhmmm.

I haven`t been trawling around the net, cherry-picking figures, those came up on a quick search. Links below.

racfoundation.org/wp-conten … e_2013.pdf
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … t_2012.pdf
localgov.co.uk/Road-mainten … cade/44564

Coffee drunk, crumpets toasted and eaten…lovely.

Edit-typo

I’m going to have to disagree with you there…crumpets are bloody awful! Way too much commonsense in the responses here…Franglais and Albion for PM and Chancellor! After we’re finally out that is… :wink:

32

albion:

muckles:

albion:
I buy them rain proof jackets franglais, living the dream and all that gubbins :smiley:

You spoil them lads. :laughing:

And I tell them. :wink: They’ve even got a pay rise this week. Without asking. I’m going soft :smiling_imp:

The way youre going youll soon be thrown out of the “Greedy Capitalist Employers Club”.
You`ll tell us next given up watering down their beer!
youtube.com/watch?v=SybZrbeBQ3I

33

I’m worrying about your musical taste now!

T&E, Franglais can’t be PM, he’ll call another referendum and make us vote until we get it right. :laughing:

34

madmackem:
Apparently, we are not paying our way. Note the job that the article author does. A nice unbiased view :open_mouth:

citymetric.com/transport/he … rging-3806

I think France,Belgium was right when introduced toll motorway.More truck driving miles that more pay.Now Stobart truck do 100000 miles every years by motorway but some farmer truck do 10000 but all tax same .

35

Andrejs:

madmackem:
Apparently, we are not paying our way. Note the job that the article author does. A nice unbiased view :open_mouth:

citymetric.com/transport/he … rging-3806

I think France,Belgium was right when introduced toll motorway.More truck driving miles that more pay.Now Stobart truck do 100000 miles every years by motorway but some farmer truck do 10000 but all tax same .

Same road tax true. But with higher mileage trucks, they burn more fuel so pay more duty that way.
Toll motorways can create a situation where vehicles avoid those roads, and run on less suitable routes so causing more congestion and pollution. You can force trucks on main routes by extensive use of weight limits on minor roads, but that can cause overly long diversions etc. Taxing fuel also encourages use of more efficient, and so less polluting, engines too.
I`m not a fan of Brexit on the whole, ( :open_mouth: ) but when it arrives maybe we can limit fuel imports on vehicle tanks, just like pre EC days? No coming in with a thousand litres and leaving with a hundred after paying no duty.

36

muckles:

the Rail industry gots £4bn in subsidies last year, plus nearly another £1bn for HS2.

In addition to untaxed train fuel costs v road fuel taxation.Strange how the Labour party is always shouting about corporate tax evasion when it suits it but obviously not when it doesn’t suit ASLEF.In addition to the corporate rail lobby’s obviously bent figures which under play the level of subsidy and legalised tax evasion enjoyed by itself and its customers v road transport users in that regard.

37

Franglais:
Taxing fuel also encourages use of more efficient, and so less polluting, engines too.

Fuel tax in this case actually just encourages customers to use the least taxed option ( rail ) thereby leaving the NHS etc short of cash and more haulage company closures.

In addition to it being a regressive tax in which high earners are having a laugh at the expense of the low paid.While also creating the situation of those minimising their tax exposure by using the least fuel possible while their demand for services goes up.So who then pays for the shortfall in tax revenues ?.Oh wait they increase fuel tax more.Which means less trucks on the road and more drivers on the dole and people using even less fuel and having less to spend which means less economic growth.Great idea.

38

albion:
I’m worrying about your musical taste now!

T&E, Franglais can’t be PM, he’ll call another referendum and make us vote until we get it right. :laughing:

I have Mr F down as an honourable gentleman, not the parliamentary kind though! Not yet, anyway. I’m in no doubt he would respect the will of the people! :grimacing:

39

Franglais:

Andrejs:

madmackem:
Apparently, we are not paying our way. Note the job that the article author does. A nice unbiased view :open_mouth:

citymetric.com/transport/he … rging-3806

I think France,Belgium was right when introduced toll motorway.More truck driving miles that more pay.Now Stobart truck do 100000 miles every years by motorway but some farmer truck do 10000 but all tax same .

Same road tax true. But with higher mileage trucks, they burn more fuel so pay more duty that way.
Toll motorways can create a situation where vehicles avoid those roads, and run on less suitable routes so causing more congestion and pollution. You can force trucks on main routes by extensive use of weight limits on minor roads, but that can cause overly long diversions etc. Taxing fuel also encourages use of more efficient, and so less polluting, engines too.
I`m not a fan of Brexit on the whole, ( :open_mouth: ) but when it arrives maybe we can limit fuel imports on vehicle tanks, just like pre EC days? No coming in with a thousand litres and leaving with a hundred after paying no duty.

Yes must reduces some diesel tax and another duty but do tool motorway.Stobart,Culina and more truck who work 2 shift per day now more cheap that farmer truck who do i delivery every second day.Plus big company use more motorway,new truck.They have some time 10-12 mpg.But small company use old truck who can do just 8 mpg.

40

Carryfast:

Franglais:
Taxing fuel also encourages use of more efficient, and so less polluting, engines too.

Fuel tax in this case actually just encourages customers to use the least taxed option ( rail ) thereby leaving the NHS etc short of cash and more haulage company closures.

In addition to it being a regressive tax in which high earners are having a laugh at the expense of the low paid.While also creating the situation of those minimising their tax exposure by using the least fuel possible while their demand for services goes up.So who then pays for the shortfall in tax revenues ?.Oh wait they increase fuel tax more.Which means less trucks on the road and more drivers on the dole and people using even less fuel and having less to spend which means less economic growth.Great idea.

If youre saying that more regressive taxation is a short term fix for the wealthy, and will ■■■■■■■ the country whilst the rich move offshore? Youre also saying the NHS is under funded? Then I reckon youre probably right. I would expect that others would agree too. Its up to Govs to gather tax equitably, and allocate tax revenues sensibly.
So, we`ll all be voting for J.C. soon then?

And on a more serious note, users will choose (often, but not exclusively) that which benefits them in the short term.
Travelers choose the cheapest (money and time) option. They wont look at how much ticket price is going in tax, surely? They look at price. Govs subsidising rail and bus fares means less cars on the road and easier cheaper journeys for the rest of us. Road fuel tax going to rail isnt such a bad idea really. Get single occupancy commuter cars off the road to free the highway for traffic that has little choice but to be there.