.
Rob K:
:lol:
Why can’t you guys just agree to disagree and move on? Neither side is going to back down and if you don’t do something this thread will be on page 1214 by this time next year and still active
.
Now guys, say slowly after me
Mark “Carryfast I don’t agree with you so let’s just agree to differ”
Carryfast “Mark et all, I don’t agree with you guys so let’s just agree to differ”There, easy innit !
I don’t give a toss one way or the other, BTD and Carryfast are the main protaganists of this thread, I may add some fuel to the fire to get Carryfast all fired up, but I only do that for the entertainment value 
as I’ve said in almost every post, it won’t happen, so it’s just a schoolboy dream and I know Caryfast has had the gaffer tape & Meccano out, making Scandinavian style wagon and drags from his Corgi models and when he’s not on here, he’s pushing them round his kitchen making air brake noises
newmercman:
Rob K:
:lol:Why can’t you guys just agree to disagree and move on? Neither side is going to back down and if you don’t do something this thread will be on page 1214 by this time next year and still active
Now guys, say slowly after me
Mark “Carryfast I don’t agree with you so let’s just agree to differ”
Carryfast “Mark et all, I don’t agree with you guys so let’s just agree to differ”There, easy innit !
I don’t give a toss one way or the other, BTD and Carryfast are the main protaganists of this thread, I may add some fuel to the fire to get Carryfast all fired up, but I only do that for the entertainment value
Even a corgi model of a scandinavian drawbar outfit made out of gaffer tape and meccano would be better than that zb trailer that started it all.
Holy crap… We agreed on something!!! 
Mark, you forgot the vroom vroom noises though…
bobthedog:
Carryfast, why would the majority of UK fleet tractors need to be made to Super B specs? In your scenario, all hauliers, well people like you that will work for nothing, would have to go buy 6 wheeled rigids with drawbar hitches to replace their tractors… Also, most design train weights are over 50 tonnes anyway. You are, as normal, talking bollox.
so where does the “its either an A or a B-train” scenario come into the equasion? also, I don’t think the nay-sayers have ever siin either an a or a b maneuver in central stockholm or helsinki, I for one haven’t seen one get stuck yet.
milodon:
bobthedog:
Carryfast, why would the majority of UK fleet tractors need to be made to Super B specs? In your scenario, all hauliers, well people like you that will work for nothing, would have to go buy 6 wheeled rigids with drawbar hitches to replace their tractors… Also, most design train weights are over 50 tonnes anyway. You are, as normal, talking bollox.so where does the “its either an A or a B-train” scenario come into the equasion? also, I don’t think the nay-sayers have ever siin either an a or a b maneuver in central stockholm or helsinki, I for one haven’t seen one get stuck yet.
milodon I think bobthedog’s question concerning tractor units was as usual a misunderstanding on his part because I never said any thing about tractor units being the issue in the context of B trains.It’s just the fact that B trains work with a totally different,inherently inferior, princible of directly coupling second or more semi trailers directly onto another semi trailer instead of using a drawbar dolly to couple them with,thereby imposing extra loads onto the already loaded lead trailer axles in addition to which his arguments,concerning the handling of B trains versus A trains and/or drawbar outfits,seem unrealistic especially when we’ve got zetorpilot’s posts to confirm the advantages of the type of typical scandinavian drawbar outfits which I’m trying to make the case for using throughout Europe instead of the legal artic outfits and drawbar outfits which we have to use at present.Effectively the only difference between what we can legally use now would be using a six wheeler rigid using a converter dolly to pull a 45 foot semi trailer instead of a tractor unit.My case is that the outfit would handle no worse,possibly even better,than the artic but the payload and productivety would be far better.However bobthedog seems to think that by coupling up the same trailers,as we use at present,to rigids instead of tractor units,the handling characteristics would be changed to the point of impossibility in European conditions because of the overall length difference.So he then jumped to the (erroneous) conclusion that a B train outfit would be better.Which I say is bs.The relevant argument and comparison in this case is just the one between the stupid design of the proposed larger type of semi trailer which started the topic and pulling our present length 45 foot trailers with a rigid instead which would not only provide far more efficiency in load deck space but far better efficiency in payload weights too.In addition to that the driving characteristics of that type of drawbar outfit would be far better than trying to increase the current capacity of 45 foot semi trailers by increasing the overhangs at each end which is the simplistic princible which the designers seem to have relied on to get round the fact that the EU authorities are’nt bright enough,(so far),to allow the better engineering princibles contained in the scandinavian drawbar outfit design by increasing the allowed overall lengths and overall gross train weights of drawbar outfits in Europe,to allow their use.But the issue of the comparison between B trains and A trains is a red herring in the context of that comparison and issue.
Carryfast your idea does have some merit, well except for the part where you try to undercut the Poles and run around for dinner money but the drawbar concept would work on line haul work, except for one small thing…the law
The Armatidge Proposal called for heavier 44tonne trucks back in the early 70s, we eventually got 44 tonnes nearly 30yrs later, so good luck mate
Ere Carryfast, is this you?
newmercman:
Carryfast your idea does have some merit, well except for the part where you try to undercut the Poles and run around for dinner money
But the ‘law’ would’nt allow them to use 18 metre artic outfits yet either. and if you’d read all of the reasoning which I’ve been trying to put forward that’s my point.
newmercman:
Ere Carryfast, is this you?
No that’s the designer of that zb longer semi trailer after the brain surgeons had finished giving him a zb lobotomy.
bobthedog:
In the UK, a 77+’ combination, particularly with a rigid tractive unit and a 45’ trailer behind it will mean that the trailer will spend a lot of time out of the drivers immediate sightlines.
I thought that I wouldn’t need to post on this thread again, but there is yet another another misconception that I can’t let go uncorrected.
As the trailer is further away from the driver, it is effectively smaller in the mirrors, and while it might seem a bit paradoxical in fact visibility is at least as good as with an artic, if not in some ways better. As the trailer is further away, ie subtends a smaller angle from the point of view of the driver, it can be at a greater angle to the prime mover and remain completely visible compared with an artic.
I’ve even gone to the trouble of making a little sketch to illustrate the point, as it’s one of those things that’s very obvious to someone who has actual experience but a bit hard to visualise otherwise:
On tighter turns in town centres the rear of the trailer can go out of sight from the main mirror very briefly, but it remains at all times completely visible in the trailer mirror. I checked this very carefully on my shift last night.
Zetorpilot:
bobthedog:
In the UK, a 77+’ combination, particularly with a rigid tractive unit and a 45’ trailer behind it will mean that the trailer will spend a lot of time out of the drivers immediate sightlines.I thought that I wouldn’t need to post on this thread again, but there is yet another another misconception that I can’t let go uncorrected.
As the trailer is further away from the driver, it is effectively smaller in the mirrors, and while it might seem a bit paradoxical in fact visibility is at least as good as with an artic, if not in some ways better. As the trailer is further away, ie subtends a smaller angle from the point of view of the driver, it can be at a greater angle to the prime mover and remain completely visible compared with an artic.
I’ve even gone to the trouble of making a little sketch to illustrate the point, as it’s one of those things that’s very obvious to someone who has actual experience but a bit hard to visualise otherwise:
On tighter turns in town centres the rear of the trailer can go out of sight from the main mirror very briefly, but it remains at all times completely visible in the trailer mirror. I checked this very carefully on my shift last night.
Zetorpilot it’s obvious that there’s a lot of prejudice against drawbar outfits by those who’ve probably never even been a passenger in one let alone ever driven one.In most cases the times when the different points of even the present artic trailers are out of sight exceed those of a drawbar trailer even if it’s a 45 ft drawbar trailer of the same length as the artic. .It’s that old advantage of having two points of articulation at the coupling again and positioned nearer to the half way point of the overall outfit.In most cases at turns the angle between a tractor unit and a semi trailer is much greater than the one between a prime mover and a drawbar trailer.Also as you say the rear of the trailer is further away from the mirrors which widens the sighting angles even more.It’s a bit like the difference between an L shape and half of a Y.With the present short type of drawbar trailers even a 90 degree turn can be made while still having sight of what’s happening all the way to the end of the trailer and that advantage would still mostly remain much further along a 45 foot trailer than it does when that trailer is coupled up to a tractor unit and it’s anyone’s guess as to what you would actually see in the mirrors of a B train, pulled by a tractor unit,as it’s making a tight turn .But in this context the issue is what sight would the driver have of that zb great tail sweep and front overhang on that zb mickey mouse proposed longer semi trailer when it’s turning.