Load security

[meistre]

chester:

Meistre:
Yes as long as it’s not a custom’s bonded seal…hence if a container is sealed, then the driver is not responsible for the load inside it, only the box itself…

So if a box is carrying class 1 explosives, as long as it’s in a box anyone can carry it.
Iam. Sure every driver has a duty to check what he/ she is carrying.

I once helped a guy on the A34 who had a JCB mini fork lift halfway hanging out his back doors of a container, he hadn’t checked the load because it was sealed.
If that mini JCB had fell out and a family had driven straight into it. Would that seal get that driver off in court I wonder?

Christ No!!! The box should be very CLEARLY labelled as to it’s ADR contents. That’s a very serious No-No and people get hung drawn and quartered for such stunts…that’s breeching loads of regs including international maritime law…

[own_account_driver]

chester:

Meistre:
Yes as long as it’s not a custom’s bonded seal…hence if a container is sealed, then the driver is not responsible for the load inside it, only the box itself…

(Yes I know it should be marked up as, but them markers can easily fall off) all loads must be checked before departure.

So if a box is carrying class 1 explosives, as long as it’s in a box anyone can carry it.
Iam. Sure every driver has a duty to check what he/ she is carrying.

I once helped a guy on the A34 who had a JCB mini fork lift halfway hanging out his back doors of a container, he hadn’t checked the load because it was sealed.
If that mini JCB had fell out and a family had driven straight into it. Would that seal get that driver off in court I wonder?

I was not aware of any exemptions to the driver’s ultimate responsibility for load security either.

[wheelnutt]

Youngy:
By enforcing these rules so harshly vosa are putting honest firms to a disadvantage over firms that will pull a double stacked trl with no restraint and take the risk of getting done just to get three jobs a day in.

No, on the contrary, by pulling guys like these VOSA is helping us that do run legit. I do hope that they stop you guys a few more times, maybe then you and your boss will get the message. It is guys like you that are blatantly ignoring both the law and common sense that gives us a bad name.

Some of us take our time and make sure a load is secure, while others cut corners at every step.

Youngy:
the company got a fine and traffic light affected due to an insecure load (one level of pallets).

Let’s hope your company has learned its lesson now before they either kill someone, drop a load on the motorway or go to full red.

Youngy:
This has put the [zb] up our place they are now saying we have to open every trl or swap body and if every pallet is not strapped then we have to strap them. If any driver is now caught driving a load that is not strapped disaplinary action will follow. I can only think this is going to hit our rates even harder

So you come on here admitting that you are breaking the law and expect sympathy from those of us that don’t run bent?

Well done VOSA.

[weeto]

chester:

weeto:
Does VOSA have the authority to break seals on trailers etc?

Iam not quoting any legality here, this is knowledge off top of my head.

If they suspect that the load is a danger then of course they can break seals.
A seal is a company procedure. A driver is responsible for load and vehicle. If a driver can’t break a seal to check that the said load is in a fit state to take on the public highway then how can that driver know the state if the load■■?

Even TIR seals can be broken, just get customs to re-seal before you leave port etc.

To much of if the eye can’t see attitude in the haulage game nowadays. To many folks just closing curtains and cracking on.

The thing is, VOSA asked the driver to break the seal, the driver should not of broken the seal, if they wanted to see inside the trailer they should have done it themselves,the driver doesnt have the authority to break them!

[weeto]

Meistre:

weeto:

Youngy:
The firm I work for do a lot of imported trls and swap body containers. One of our drivers got pulled by the hitlers in there ford galaxy. They asked him to brake the seal and open it up. To cut a long story short they fined him £100 and the company got a fine and traffic light affected due to an insecure load (one level of pallets). This has put the [zb] up our place they are now saying we have to open every trl or swap body and if every pallet is not strapped then we have to strap them. If any driver is now caught driving a load that is not strapped disaplinary action will follow. I can only think this is going to hit our rates even harder as if a driver has to spend an hour strapping a load then how can you make the rates that these trl importers pay actually pay. By enforcing these rules so harshly vosa are putting honest firms to a disadvantage over firms that will pull a double stacked trl with no restraint and take the risk of getting done just to get three jobs a day in.

Does VOSA have the authority to break seals on trailers etc?

Yes as long as it’s not a custom’s bonded seal…hence if a container is sealed, then the driver is not responsible for the load inside it, only the box itself…

Can you tell me were this info came from, that VOSA have the right to open a sealed trailer?
I wouldnt take one off or let them take one off a loaded trailer until they proved they had the authority to remove it!

[chester]

weeto:

chester:

weeto:
Does VOSA have the authority to break seals on trailers etc?

Iam not quoting any legality here, this is knowledge off top of my head.

If they suspect that the load is a danger then of course they can break seals.
A seal is a company procedure. A driver is responsible for load and vehicle. If a driver can’t break a seal to check that the said load is in a fit state to take on the public highway then how can that driver know the state if the load■■?

Even TIR seals can be broken, just get customs to re-seal before you leave port etc.

To much of if the eye can’t see attitude in the haulage game nowadays. To many folks just closing curtains and cracking on.

The thing is, VOSA asked the driver to break the seal, the driver should not of broken the seal, if they wanted to see inside the trailer they should have done it themselves,the driver doesnt have the authority to break them!

Yeah you have a point there! Why didn’t VOSA/DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency) which they are now known, break the seal. Surely somebody has to be happy with the load at some point to take out on the roads?

So you have a driver, and VOSA/DVSA who have a truck/lorry on a public highway and non of them know the state of the load in question.
Mexican stand off obviously ensues because no-one has any balls nowadays to make a direct decision.

I have a good tendency to make decisions other people can’t ie if Iam not happy with a load it doesn’t go.

[chester]

weeto:
driver doesnt have the authority to break them!

Then how does that driver know what he is being held in charge of on the carriageway!

A driver is responsible for the vehicle and load on a public highway

Just because Traffic managers, and traffic planners tell drivers they aren’t allowed to break seals, don’t believe them creatures. Have a look in legalities in our trade before believing any codswallop!

[olog_hai]

There was a VOSA checkpoint around the back of Tower Bridge DLR station in London yesterday which seemed to be pulling wagons and checking loads. They had a Coopers DAF rigid in there with both curtains open going over his straps (which he seemed to have plenty of), and there was also a 7.5t scaffold flatbed behind, which seemed to be a little lighter on the strap front.

Funny place to have the check as I doubt its a heavily used route for HGVs.

[limeyphil]

It’s not a case of drivers having the “authority” to break a seal.
The driver has a Duty to make sure that the load is safe and will not endanger lives. This takes precedence over company policy or any legislation.
I think when people say “i don’t have the authority to do this”. What they mean is i don’t care and can’t be arsed.

VOSA and the police have been hell bent on putting fear into people for the heinous crimes associated with tachograph legislation.
It’s about time they put their efforts into the important issues regarding load security.

[youngy]

wheelnutt:

Youngy:
By enforcing these rules so harshly vosa are putting honest firms to a disadvantage over firms that will pull a double stacked trl with no restraint and take the risk of getting done just to get three jobs a day in.

No, on the contrary, by pulling guys like these VOSA is helping us that do run legit. I do hope that they stop you guys a few more times, maybe then you and your boss will get the message. It is guys like you that are blatantly ignoring both the law and common sense that gives us a bad name.

Some of us take our time and make sure a load is secure, while others cut corners at every step.

Youngy:
the company got a fine and traffic light affected due to an insecure load (one level of pallets).

Let’s hope your company has learned its lesson now before they either kill someone, drop a load on the motorway or go to full red.

Youngy:
This has put the [zb] up our place they are now saying we have to open every trl or swap body and if every pallet is not strapped then we have to strap them. If any driver is now caught driving a load that is not strapped disaplinary action will follow. I can only think this is going to hit our rates even harder

So you come on here admitting that you are breaking the law and expect sympathy from those of us that don’t run bent?

Well done VOSA.

Firstly this is a forum I didn’t come on here for sympathy actually I just wanted to provoke a discussion on something which is causing confusion in our line of work ie seals and who is responsible. Secondly I can tell you now I take the law very seriously wether that is drivers hours load security or roadworthiness ect. So next time don’t be so ignorant and just get involved in a discussion instead of getting on your high horse. Thank you

[weeto]

chester:

weeto:
driver doesnt have the authority to break them!

Then how does that driver know what he is being held in charge of on the carriageway!

A driver is responsible for the vehicle and load on a public highway

Just because Traffic managers, and traffic planners tell drivers they aren’t allowed to break seals, don’t believe them creatures. Have a look in legalities in our trade before believing any codswallop!

He can ask to have seal cut and replaced to check the load before he takes the trailer off the terminal, if that request is denied, his only opttion is to refuse to take it.

[truckyboy]

Youngy, i sympathise with you, for i feel that all of those who are slating you off, have at some time, taken a tautliner-tilt- container out of the docks, and those same drivers have driven along the rows, checked the numbers are right, then got under it, fixed the lights on, etc, then driven out, we have all done it, the only problem is, Vosa are a different organisation today, they have to power to take money from a driver/company, and affect the way the company operates.
In your circumstances, it has been stated that the T/M, has told all drivers they will be on a disciplinary if they dont conform to the new rules of checking, all loads and making sure they are secured, now that is a direct order, and if it means delays, or breaking of seals, then so be it, for if the customers complain, the driver and the company have a genuine grievance, with those across the pond. If you look at the procedure across the pond, then one will be asking, who is going to pay for the extra straps, how will we get them back etc, its all extra cost. As for the seals, not a problem, take off the seal, hand it in to the delivery point, and let them moan, and if Vosa want to break a seal, they are within their rights to do so, they are in charge of the road network with regard to load safety, unless, that seal happens to be a customs seal, in which case only customs can officially break and replace it.

But as annoying as it may be, as time consuming it may be, it is always the drivers responsibility for the safety, and security of his load, and its contents.

[meistre]

truckyboy:
Youngy, i sympathise with you, for i feel that all of those who are slating you off, have at some time, taken a tautliner-tilt- container out of the docks, and those same drivers have driven along the rows, checked the numbers are right, then got under it, fixed the lights on, etc, then driven out, we have all done it, the only problem is, Vosa are a different organisation today, they have to power to take money from a driver/company, and affect the way the company operates.
In your circumstances, it has been stated that the T/M, has told all drivers they will be on a disciplinary if they dont conform to the new rules of checking, all loads and making sure they are secured, now that is a direct order, and if it means delays, or breaking of seals, then so be it, for if the customers complain, the driver and the company have a genuine grievance, with those across the pond. If you look at the procedure across the pond, then one will be asking, who is going to pay for the extra straps, how will we get them back etc, its all extra cost. As for the seals, not a problem, take off the seal, hand it in to the delivery point, and let them moan, and if Vosa want to break a seal, they are within their rights to do so, they are in charge of the road network with regard to load safety, unless, that seal happens to be a customs seal, in which case only customs can officially break and replace it.

But as annoying as it may be, as time consuming it may be, it is always the drivers responsibility for the safety, and security of his load, and its contents.

I have to go with this ^^^

I was asked by a police officer to break a seal once, and I agreed providing he signed off on the POD as a seal replacement and initialled the replacement seal (I used to carry spare seals in the cab).

Maybe this could be an option for you.

[weeto]

truckyboy:
Youngy, i sympathise with you, for i feel that all of those who are slating you off, have at some time, taken a tautliner-tilt- container out of the docks, and those same drivers have driven along the rows, checked the numbers are right, then got under it, fixed the lights on, etc, then driven out, we have all done it, the only problem is, Vosa are a different organisation today, they have to power to take money from a driver/company, and affect the way the company operates.
In your circumstances, it has been stated that the T/M, has told all drivers they will be on a disciplinary if they dont conform to the new rules of checking, all loads and making sure they are secured, now that is a direct order, and if it means delays, or breaking of seals, then so be it, for if the customers complain, the driver and the company have a genuine grievance, with those across the pond. If you look at the procedure across the pond, then one will be asking, who is going to pay for the extra straps, how will we get them back etc, its all extra cost. As for the seals, not a problem, take off the seal, hand it in to the delivery point, and let them moan, and if Vosa want to break a seal, they are within their rights to do so, they are in charge of the road network with regard to load safety, unless, that seal happens to be a customs seal, in which case only customs can officially break and replace it.

But as annoying as it may be, as time consuming it may be, it is always the drivers responsibility for the safety, and security of his load, and its contents.

The problem is, in euro land they have a good practice guide, which I might add is a comprehensive guide on load security, were as VOSA only has a load matrix thingy, which doesn’t even show how that load should be secured, that’s if it actually needs securing, and here lies the problem! A trailer loaded in Germany may not need to be strapped there but, VOSA in there wisdom may decide that it does and could end up fining the driver who pulls the trailer over here.
Just to add, the good practice guide over there is good enough to fight a case in the courts, whereas VOSA won’t even accept it’s contents! But I’m sure the EU courts would find in favour of the driver if it came to it.
Drivers and operators seem to shy away on appealing VOSA’s decisions.

[rhythm_thief]

I pull a double deck curtainsider every single night, loaded up with pallets of all shapes and sizes. I’ve been doing this for years and have very rarely strapped stuff down. I cross strap anything that looks like it might topple over backwards, and I throw a ratchet strap over stuff like generators or bundles of steel rods, but I never strap the vast majority of pallets. Nothing has ever fallen off, or even leaned on the curtain, and most of our trailers have load bearing curtains fitted.
I appreciate that if I’m ever stopped I’ll be in trouble (and that by posting this I’ve just made it more likely that it’ll happen* ), but it all begs the question … how can it be intrinsically unsafe if I’ve been doing it this way for years without anything falling off? None of my loads ever seem insecure to me and they all arrive at their destination safely. I know that VOSA’s word is law and all the rest of it, but is there any argument to be made for just using common sense and driving according to what’s on the trailer, as I do?

*Best be squeaky clean for the next few weeks …

[truckyboy]

There are many reasons for the answers above, and all of them make sense, but as Bob Dylan once said/sang The times they are a changing what we used to do in the past, is no longer applicable today, we all carry on doing things the way we have always done them, that is until something major happens, then everybody panics, and everything changes. What Vosa tries to do i imagine, is to stop a catastrophe before it happens, up to a while ago, drivers used to carry a JCB on the trailer,with a couple of ropes, then it became straps, but nobody strapped the arm, till one day it swung out, decapitated someone, so now all arm, buckets etc, have to be strapped. We all know our capabilities, we all know a bag of sand wont move, we all know a 20ton steel beam aint going nowhere, but the rules havev been put in place to protect us, and the public and innocent passers by.
Now just cast you mind back a couple of posts ago, and theres a driver who killed himself, why, because although we all know, what to do when picking up a trailer, or dropping one, but time and time again, these accidents keep occurring, no matter how much training, and as i`ve always said, in this industry, you never stop learning, so all we can do is bear in mind the training we have had, bear in mind the consequences if something did go wrong, and take note that, us as professional drivers and knights of the road, do not want to be blamed, when it all goes ■■■■ up, so lets start by doing the job the way it should be done…keep safe…keep your licence…keep your money in your pocket.

[own_account_driver]

Rhythm Thief:
I pull a double deck curtainsider every single night, loaded up with pallets of all shapes and sizes. I’ve been doing this for years and have very rarely strapped stuff down. I cross strap anything that looks like it might topple over backwards, and I throw a ratchet strap over stuff like generators or bundles of steel rods, but I never strap the vast majority of pallets. Nothing has ever fallen off, or even leaned on the curtain, and most of our trailers have load bearing curtains fitted.
I appreciate that if I’m ever stopped I’ll be in trouble (and that by posting this I’ve just made it more likely that it’ll happen* ), but it all begs the question … how can it be intrinsically unsafe if I’ve been doing it this way for years without anything falling off? None of my loads ever seem insecure to me and they all arrive at their destination safely. I know that VOSA’s word is law and all the rest of it, but is there any argument to be made for just using common sense and driving according to what’s on the trailer, as I do?

*Best be squeaky clean for the next few weeks …

Any driver with any real competency is perfectly capable of assessing what is and isn’t adequately secured. The vast majority of well wrapped palletised goods, loaded sensibly, in curtainsiders require no additional securing and in my view the process of drivers standing in busy yards doing so presents more risk to personal injury than it prevents.

The only enthusiasts on here are tedious training industry vested interests, that make their parasitical living off the back of ths type of nonsense, and drivers that love another excuse to not take a truck out through a combination of laziness and a sense of decision-making self-importance.

Much like DCPC, none of them have any coherent arguments to support why it’s needed and simply resort to smearing anyone that disagrees with it as not taking road safety seriously.

[ttx_boy]

OVLOV JAY:
How the hell can you secure pallets inside a box. They have very limited lashing points that would probably buckle with a ratchet. The idea of that load security is to keep the load on the bed and intact in a roll over. The load is the box. Nothing will come out of the box so as long as the locks keep it on the skell, it’s secure

You don’t have to secure the load if it’s in a box.

[ttx_boy]

weeto:

Youngy:
The firm I work for do a lot of imported trls and swap body containers. One of our drivers got pulled by the hitlers in there ford galaxy. They asked him to brake the seal and open it up. To cut a long story short they fined him £100 and the company got a fine and traffic light affected due to an insecure load (one level of pallets). This has put the [zb] up our place they are now saying we have to open every trl or swap body and if every pallet is not strapped then we have to strap them. If any driver is now caught driving a load that is not strapped disaplinary action will follow. I can only think this is going to hit our rates even harder as if a driver has to spend an hour strapping a load then how can you make the rates that these trl importers pay actually pay. By enforcing these rules so harshly vosa are putting honest firms to a disadvantage over firms that will pull a double stacked trl with no restraint and take the risk of getting done just to get three jobs a day in.

Does VOSA have the authority to break seals on trailers etc?

VOSA don’t have the authority to break seals but they will put a prohibition on your vehicle until it is opened and they get to have a look inside.

[punchy_dan]

Can’t this problem be avoided by putting a padlock on the doors or wire ,just tell them you don’t have the keys ,surely they won’t try to cut a lock or even have choppers ? .