Lack of younger drivers

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

albion:

Rjan:
…

I wouldn’t disagree with that mostly beyond saying it is partly down to temperament. The 23 year old from before, he may have his ups and downs in employment, but basically he is the type of person who is going to land on his feet.

Agreed, but he was already professional soldier, and I was inclined to think that he probably had a variety of other options.

However the bosses aren’t trying to recruit young people with other options, because that means competing with the wages and conditions of skilled trades, professional careers, or even routine occupations where there may be prospects to move into supervisory or trusted staff positions.

At least, I infer that bosses aren’t trying to recruit young people with such other options, because then it would be obvious why they cannot attract them, since general haulage is blatantly uncompetitive on wages, conditions, and prospects.

They’re questioning why they can’t get young people out of warehouses or call centres and similar, where hourly rates tend to be worse than haulage, where conditions are similarly poor, and where it may be reasonably assumed that the vast majority of people in such places have no special qualities that will provide further prospects in those occupations.

Other people will always struggle and partly because they won’t take a chance on something new, often coupled with a sour, limited personality that limits their chances, though they never recognise it.

It’s not a case of young people being constitutionally unwilling to take a reasonable chance, it’s that if you’re in the sort of bottom-level occupations to which I previously referred, you’re not going to have the money to take chances, or to even meet the reasonable preconditions of taking a chance on haulage (such as having had a car driving licence for a few years, and a car).

And secondly, now that I’m 55, I realise more than ever, you can plan till you are blue in the face but that will get you only so far because you can only control so much. You cant control the multiple chances that occur every day that affect you to a greater or lesser degree. Throughout my business life I had a quote from Sir John Harvey Jones on my wall that started, ‘Planning is an unnatural process, far better to just do something…’, and I endorse that lack of overthinking. You want to drive a truck then just do it, give it a whirl and it’s got two chances.

I agree, follow your curiosity.

62

albion:
There was a piece in last weeks Times about how the Police were advising the Home Office that they were struggling to recruit millenials because they were surprised at the requirement to work weekends and nights. And they didnt like confrontation. :unamused:

It’s not just driving.

But you also see the same trends in policing, of falling wages and worsening conditions, at the same time as intensification of work and less autonomy.

Then you get bosses scratching their heads why they can’t recruit and retain like they used to.

It’s the same with prison officers as well. Cuts, privatisation, intensification, overcrowding, and then they wonder why recruitment and retention becomes poor.

63

Got started when I was 28- 30 now. After a series of minimum wage dead end jobs it was a good way for me to earn a better living. Company I got a job with (slight bit of nepotism as my Dad worked there) ended up fronting the cost for Class 1 training and tests- just had to pay them back over a 2 year period.
To be fair it has enabled me to get a mortgage, new car and live a better standard of life than I could have hoped for before. The hours are the same as minimum wage jobs such as kitchen work but the money is right.

Even had one of my mates follow me into it as it seems to be the best way someone with a good work ethic but no qualifications can earn a half decent living.

64

FerociousCod:
Got started when I was 28- 30 now. After a series of minimum wage dead end jobs it was a good way for me to earn a better living. Company I got a job with (slight bit of nepotism as my Dad worked there) ended up fronting the cost for Class 1 training and tests- just had to pay them back over a 2 year period.
To be fair it has enabled me to get a mortgage, new car and live a better standard of life than I could have hoped for before. The hours are the same as minimum wage jobs such as kitchen work but the money is right.

Even had one of my mates follow me into it as it seems to be the best way someone with a good work ethic but no qualifications can earn a half decent living.

Just curious, would you have done it out of your own pocket or taken on a debt, if you didn’t have a guaranteed job to start, with an inside view of that particular firm from the old man, all training paid for up-front by the company, and (I imagine) the old man on hand to show you the ropes and settle you in (and provide some camaraderie)?

Would your mate have done it without you acting in a similar role in relation to him?

Also, what are the working hours and pattern, and (if you’re willing to share) the rates?

And at what age did you get a car licence, and a car, and how did you pay for it?

It’s interesting to get a perspective on what people will go for, and what path they take.

65

Rjan:
Just curious, would you have done it out of your own pocket or taken on a debt, if you didn’t have a guaranteed job to start, with an inside view of that particular firm from the old man, all training paid for up-front by the company, and (I imagine) the old man on hand to show you the ropes and settle you in (and provide some camaraderie)?

Would your mate have done it without you acting in a similar role in relation to him?

Also, what are the working hours and pattern, and (if you’re willing to share) the rates?

And at what age did you get a car licence, and a car, and how did you pay for it?

It’s interesting to get a perspective on what people will go for, and what path they take.

You’re right, I would not have paid for it out of my own pocket- I appreciate that I came into it from a different position than most.

Car licence at 18, paid for by working at a fast food restaurant instead of going to university :unamused:

I’ve since actually moved on to work for a different company but I was on a 5-3 shift pattern averaging 12 hour days at £11.41 basic rate- it suited me fine and was a big change in cash from scraping £8p/h.

66

FerociousCod:

Rjan:
Just curious, would you have done it out of your own pocket or taken on a debt, if you didn’t have a guaranteed job to start, with an inside view of that particular firm from the old man, all training paid for up-front by the company, and (I imagine) the old man on hand to show you the ropes and settle you in (and provide some camaraderie)?

Would your mate have done it without you acting in a similar role in relation to him?

Also, what are the working hours and pattern, and (if you’re willing to share) the rates?

And at what age did you get a car licence, and a car, and how did you pay for it?

It’s interesting to get a perspective on what people will go for, and what path they take.

You’re right, I would not have paid for it out of my own pocket- I appreciate that I came into it from a different position than most.

Car licence at 18, paid for by working at a fast food restaurant instead of going to university :unamused:

I’ve since actually moved on to work for a different company but I was on a 5-3 shift pattern averaging 12 hour days at £11.41 basic rate- it suited me fine and was a big change in cash from scraping £8p/h.

Good stuff. It’s interesting to note that, even with an old man in haulage and a car licence and car at 18, it still took you until 28 to either tire of kitchens enough to consider haulage, or for a specific employer to become eager to train you up and take you on, and you had to immediately accept working 60 hour weeks including most weekends (and I assume early starts).

What have the long-term prospects been like? Have the hours got any better (without significant loss of hourly rate), or has pay gone up much further, now you’ve established yourself and moved on from your old man’s firm?

Also, what did the missus have to say about those two years with no evenings and weekends together (if indeed that has changed)?

67

Rjan:

albion:

Rjan:
…

I wouldn’t disagree with that mostly beyond saying it is partly down to temperament. The 23 year old from before, he may have his ups and downs in employment, but basically he is the type of person who is going to land on his feet.

Agreed, but he was already professional soldier, and I was inclined to think that he probably had a variety of other options.

However the bosses aren’t trying to recruit young people with other options, because that means competing with the wages and conditions of skilled trades, professional careers, or even routine occupations where there may be prospects to move into supervisory or trusted staff positions.

At least, I infer that bosses aren’t trying to recruit young people with such other options, because then it would be obvious why they cannot attract them, since general haulage is blatantly uncompetitive on wages, conditions, and prospects.

They’re questioning why they can’t get young people out of warehouses or call centres and similar, where hourly rates tend to be worse than haulage, where conditions are similarly poor, and where it may be reasonably assumed that the vast majority of people in such places have no special qualities that will provide further prospects in those occupations.

Other people will always struggle and partly because they won’t take a chance on something new, often coupled with a sour, limited personality that limits their chances, though they never recognise it.

It’s not a case of young people being constitutionally unwilling to take a reasonable chance, it’s that if you’re in the sort of bottom-level occupations to which I previously referred, you’re not going to have the money to take chances, or to even meet the reasonable preconditions of taking a chance on haulage (such as having had a car driving licence for a few years, and a car).

And secondly, now that I’m 55, I realise more than ever, you can plan till you are blue in the face but that will get you only so far because you can only control so much. You cant control the multiple chances that occur every day that affect you to a greater or lesser degree. Throughout my business life I had a quote from Sir John Harvey Jones on my wall that started, ‘Planning is an unnatural process, far better to just do something…’, and I endorse that lack of overthinking. You want to drive a truck then just do it, give it a whirl and it’s got two chances.

I agree, follow your curiosity.

I do keep saying this, some bosses. We aren’t one homogenous mass that think alike. I certainly dont recognise myself in a lot of descriptions of bosses on here, though I do accept I am different to most.

The 23 year old came to us via his mate that we took on age 24, also ex army where he got his class 1. He started off well, but compared to the 23 year old he wasnt great. Did they have options, not particularly. Neither of them could read or write well, so anything office or computer based was out, one was driving a van the other doing yard work cash in hand, and they both ran up against the under 25 insurance issue. Because we double manned so much we were far more relaxed as we could get feedback.

Yes haulage is a dead end if you want a career. Start as a driver, likely finish s a driver unless you move into the office or decide to retrain. In terms of prospects it’s difficult to see what else can happen and again it’s down to personality. Some people enjoy driving and want to do it. Some people take it because the options are limited. I’d rather work as a driver out 5 nights a week than do factory work. Some people dont want to get married and have kids, so being away is no issue. In real life I am friends with the wife of a driver on here that has trampled for the last 40 years and both of them are perfectly happy with the situation.

It’s my mindset, you want to do something then find a way of doing it. I dont expect anyone to give me a hand up. Yes there are barriers to entry for people in terms of cost, you either decide its not worth it or you take on a second job, get a 0% card, if you want to do something, you’ll do it.

FWIW, I think the idea that you can legally work 15 hours is ridiculous. I think the facilities are rubbish, though the way some drivers behave you can understand why things are basic. Unsurprisingly I think that all governments just view the taxation of wagons as a win because the general public perceive wagons as a nuisance at best and yet that revenue does not reflect the value to the UK economy.

As a random point, I do find it irritating to be lectured about how well I have it as an old (ahem) person by someone saying that they wont do long hours because they want a work/life balance. The only way I could do well was by putting hours in. I dont mind people wanting to work less, but dont moan about someone who didnt have any and finally gets to enjoy the work.

I think that covered the points ut I’m on a phone and long posts are difficult.

68

Well in my case I was brought up with lorries, a drivers son I travelled many miles with him in the fifties and early sixties and all I wanted to do was work with commercial vehicles when I left school aged 15. So I was taken on as an apprentice lorry mechanic and when old enough drove TK’s and BMC’s under three ton for test and mot etc. I missed out by a couple of years of getting a HGV licence on Grandfathers Rights but wasn’t bothered about that. Anyway I later took a fitters job at a quarry and they had their own training school so sent me aged 25 for a two week class 2 course which I passed, but no way would I have bothered if I had had to pay for it myself. Anyway after eight years I transferred to driving tippers with the same company as my back was suffering with fitting, then I discovered just how vastly different the wage was with driving the things compared to mending them! More money than I dreamed of, some days I made more money just in loading time than I did in an eight hour shift in the garage, and that was before I actually delivered a load! :open_mouth: I confess that I enjoyed it for the 20 or so years I was a driver with three different companies, wasn’t in the least bothered about how many hours I worked and even went in when there was no driving work to wash and grease ‘my’ lorry (sometimes unpaid, sad aren’t I!) as I just enjoyed being around the things! Then it all ended in 2002. :cry:

But, and a big but, as much as I loved lorries (still do) I wouldn’t have entertained paying to get my licence. I would do it all again AS IT WAS in a heartbeat but I was brought up with trucks and was all I wanted to do, however if I had been in a different trade then it would never have entered my head to chuck a steady job in and retrain as a driver. Really I can’t see the attraction for youngsters these days unless they are already part of a transport family? :confused:

Pete.

69

albion:

Rjan:
…

I do keep saying this, some bosses. We aren’t one homogenous mass that think alike. I certainly dont recognise myself in a lot of descriptions of bosses on here, though I do accept I am different to most.

And my reply is always the same, that I’m happy to make an exception for you!
:smiley:

70

CookieMonster:
I got started in HGV driving when I was 27, and ever since then I’ve been one of the, if not the youngest driver wherever I’ve worked.
Most people who go through HGV training are in their 30s or 40s, looking to change careers or after being made redundant.

I just can’t understand why there are so few younger people entering the profession, especially when there are so few other jobs where you can realistically expect to earn £30k a year at that age.

With all of the ways that the job is becoming easier, such as satnav, power steering, cruise control, automatic gearboxes etc, surely it should be a more attractive prospect?
So why are there so few younger drivers?
Is it because of listening to older, miserable sods complaining about how bad the job is?
Is it the hours?
Or the training costs?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Choice between

  1. decent money but unsocialable hours (nights)
  2. mediocre money but the nightmare of day multidrop
71

Im only 20 years old. Probably in the top 3 for youngest HGV drivers on here.

I passed class 2 and class 1 at the age of 19. Started my first job 2 weeks after passing C+E.

I think it was a nice achievement for such a young age.

72

newo:
Im only 20 years old. Probably in the top 3 for youngest HGV drivers on here.

I passed class 2 and class 1 at the age of 19. Started my first job 2 weeks after passing C+E.

I think it was a nice achievement for such a young age.

In what way.
The test is not hard.
The only real barrier is the cost.

Ye I’m cynical but I passed my test when I was in my early twenties so I feel I can be.

73

adam277:

newo:
Im only 20 years old. Probably in the top 3 for youngest HGV drivers on here.

I passed class 2 and class 1 at the age of 19. Started my first job 2 weeks after passing C+E.

I think it was a nice achievement for such a young age.

In what way.
The test is not hard.
The only real barrier is the cost.

Ye I’m cynical but I passed my test when I was in my early twenties so I feel I can be.

I get you view Adam, I passed when I was 21 and for me it was easy, was a shunter for a year before taking my tests and I was working 70hrs+ a week on nights unloading/loading cages from lorries. It meant I had plenty of money but little social life (Yeah I realise we don’t normally get an abundance of that driving lorries) so I did my tests just for the sake of it. Stopped me being stuck in warehouse jobs after dropping out of uni :wink:

74

Rjan:

CookieMonster:
I just can’t understand why there are so few younger people entering the profession, especially when there are so few other jobs where you can realistically expect to earn £30k a year at that age.

First thing, why would you expect many young people to be drawn in, when there are no vacancies and no additional demand for drivers?

Let’s not pretend secure, full-time jobs abound. The only firms recruiting, are those whose conditions are so poor that they must constantly backfill - those who do take a punt on this game in their 20s, go into these jobs, leave again, and tell all their friends how crap it is.

The only people asking this question about young drivers, are asking it from the perspective of “why can’t we get more young drivers whose expectations of wages and conditions are lower than the drivers we already have”!

Let’s face facts. There are very few young drivers because there is no demand for them, and thus employers do not offer the hourly rates and conditions necessary to draw young people in, just as they do not offer the wages and conditions to fully mobilise those who already have licences.

The idea that most new entrants will start on £30k is not representative - in fact it is almost mendacious. You’d only earn that in a common Class 1 job if you did every hour God sends. You’re unlikely to earn that at all on common Class 2 work.

And if you did every hour God sends, and have given up all aspiration in your 20s of having or keeping a girlfriend, spending any time with your children, or having any friends, then what do you need £30k a year for?

£30k a year is only a good wage when you’re getting it for 37 hours a week, securely every week, doing office hours. Not for 65 hours a week starting as early as 4am, which is more extreme even than the Victorian mills.

Not singling this post out but it is perfect to use as my example:

I worked in factories and warehouses for ■■■■ money under conditions that were ridiculous and had the chance eventually to gain my Class 2, probably got lucky that I got a chance shortly after working in a class 2 job doing banked hours which are averaged at 42 over a 26 week period and I earn £33k a year doing that at 4 on 4 off with 20 days holidays too.
So that is my class 2 job and almost every class 1 job I have looked at is less pay and more hours, I am probably lucky but it from my experience it is the best thing I ever did, got out of dead end work, will never struggle to earn a living and have more rest days compared to worked hours I could ever have related to before, especially for the money and only doing on average 4 drops per shift, the majority of which is driving for 3-4 hours to first drop, doing another 3 drops within a 50ish mile radius over a 3 hour period including breaks then a 3-4 hour drive back to the depot, that’s all estimates but it is extremely close to that and I couldn’t be in a better Class 2 job in my opinion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

75

foresttrucker:

CookieMonster:
I got started in HGV driving when I was 27, and ever since then I’ve been one of the, if not the youngest driver wherever I’ve worked.
Most people who go through HGV training are in their 30s or 40s, looking to change careers or after being made redundant.

I just can’t understand why there are so few younger people entering the profession, especially when there are so few other jobs where you can realistically expect to earn £30k a year at that age.

With all of the ways that the job is becoming easier, such as satnav, power steering, cruise control, automatic gearboxes etc, surely it should be a more attractive prospect?
So why are there so few younger drivers?
Is it because of listening to older, miserable sods complaining about how bad the job is?
Is it the hours?
Or the training costs?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Choice between

  1. decent money but unsocialable hours (nights)
  2. mediocre money but the nightmare of day multidrop

Just to quote your post too, I start at between 3am-5am on my 4 days on between my two sets of 4 off, so that 4 on starting early isn’t much of a sacrifice for the gain of having 4 off either side of it [emoji1303]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

76

mrginge:

adam277:

newo:
Im only 20 years old. Probably in the top 3 for youngest HGV drivers on here.

I passed class 2 and class 1 at the age of 19. Started my first job 2 weeks after passing C+E.

I think it was a nice achievement for such a young age.

In what way.
The test is not hard.
The only real barrier is the cost.

Ye I’m cynical but I passed my test when I was in my early twenties so I feel I can be.

I get you view Adam, I passed when I was 21 and for me it was easy, was a shunter for a year before taking my tests and I was working 70hrs+ a week on nights unloading/loading cages from lorries. It meant I had plenty of money but little social life (Yeah I realise we don’t normally get an abundance of that driving lorries) so I did my tests just for the sake of it. Stopped me being stuck in warehouse jobs after dropping out of uni :wink:

Well I say well done to newo.

How many times do you get new passes saying they cant get a job, how many times do we hear youngsters dithering about what to do and this young lad gets off his backside, takes his test and finds a job.

Good luck newo and I suspect you’ll land on your feet at one of the better firms unless you are there already.

77

For me it was being spoken down to like something this 22 year old girl had stood in, the cost of the CPC, the fact that almost every decent job was being diluted by agencies and was a race to the bottom.
Some of the best 40 something aged drivers I know were trained by their dads, they were taught the old routes, the old ways and still have my respect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

78

Chris Cooke:

Rjan:

CookieMonster:
I just can’t understand why there are so few younger people entering the profession, especially when there are so few other jobs where you can realistically expect to earn £30k a year at that age.

First thing, why would you expect many young people to be drawn in, when there are no vacancies and no additional demand for drivers?

Let’s not pretend secure, full-time jobs abound. The only firms recruiting, are those whose conditions are so poor that they must constantly backfill - those who do take a punt on this game in their 20s, go into these jobs, leave again, and tell all their friends how crap it is.

The only people asking this question about young drivers, are asking it from the perspective of “why can’t we get more young drivers whose expectations of wages and conditions are lower than the drivers we already have”!

Let’s face facts. There are very few young drivers because there is no demand for them, and thus employers do not offer the hourly rates and conditions necessary to draw young people in, just as they do not offer the wages and conditions to fully mobilise those who already have licences.

The idea that most new entrants will start on £30k is not representative - in fact it is almost mendacious. You’d only earn that in a common Class 1 job if you did every hour God sends. You’re unlikely to earn that at all on common Class 2 work.

And if you did every hour God sends, and have given up all aspiration in your 20s of having or keeping a girlfriend, spending any time with your children, or having any friends, then what do you need £30k a year for?

£30k a year is only a good wage when you’re getting it for 37 hours a week, securely every week, doing office hours. Not for 65 hours a week starting as early as 4am, which is more extreme even than the Victorian mills.

Not singling this post out but it is perfect to use as my example:

I worked in factories and warehouses for [zb] money under conditions that were ridiculous and had the chance eventually to gain my Class 2, probably got lucky that I got a chance shortly after working in a class 2 job doing banked hours which are averaged at 42 over a 26 week period and I earn £33k a year doing that at 4 on 4 off with 20 days holidays too.
So that is my class 2 job and almost every class 1 job I have looked at is less pay and more hours, I am probably lucky but it from my experience it is the best thing I ever did, got out of dead end work, will never struggle to earn a living and have more rest days compared to worked hours I could ever have related to before, especially for the money and only doing on average 4 drops per shift, the majority of which is driving for 3-4 hours to first drop, doing another 3 drops within a 50ish mile radius over a 3 hour period including breaks then a 3-4 hour drive back to the depot, that’s all estimates but it is extremely close to that and I couldn’t be in a better Class 2 job in my opinion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Before I set up myself I did a few years in an office, freight forwarding to Eire. Start at 8, with luck finish at 7-8, once a week it would be 10-11pm finish.

Before that van driving, ridiculous hours, before that a few years forkie/loading Euro groupage tilts and deep sea containers. Start at 7am, I did more than one 24 hour day and it was really hard work.

Long hours appear in all sorts of jobs.

79

foresttrucker:

CookieMonster:
I got started in HGV driving when I was 27, and ever since then I’ve been one of the, if not the youngest driver wherever I’ve worked.
Most people who go through HGV training are in their 30s or 40s, looking to change careers or after being made redundant.

I just can’t understand why there are so few younger people entering the profession, especially when there are so few other jobs where you can realistically expect to earn £30k a year at that age.

With all of the ways that the job is becoming easier, such as satnav, power steering, cruise control, automatic gearboxes etc, surely it should be a more attractive prospect?
So why are there so few younger drivers?
Is it because of listening to older, miserable sods complaining about how bad the job is?
Is it the hours?
Or the training costs?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Choice between

  1. decent money but unsocialable hours (nights)
  2. mediocre money but the nightmare of day multidrop

A whole world of jobs out there in the industry, just because someone can gain a HGV licence in a matter of a week’s course and then go on to get a class 1 licence after a couple of days tuition, doesn’t mean they are suddenly A1 top rate drivers able to cherry pick from the best jobs, like in any other industry they are newby starters and will have to earn their own reputations and make their own contacts in the industry in order to better themselves.
Lorry driving might look like a handy instant career path to £30+k wages, but to work up to the better jobs paying more than that for sensible hours is going to take some time and they’ll have to earn their own spurs.

Its possible a high number of the youngsters out have unrealistic ideas of what they should be earning and what sort of work they should be doing 2 weeks after passing their tests.

80

I agree juddian but there are Also so many ■■■■■■ firms that ruin it for new drivers.
I.e firms that pay day rate for maxing hours. Then fine you for not hitting targets by deducting it from your bonus which is technically part of your hourly rate etc etc.

I just worked at a firm that docks wages for every delivery note not ticked by the customer £10 a pop.