Is this legal

[wheel_nut]

It was much easier in the days of the "man from the ministry popping in for a brew, the traffic commissioner or the procurator fiscal ringing for a chat, or even when they got a new title of Vehicle Inspectorate.

Don’t get confused between the old and the new, but some of these regulations make interesting reading:

Transport Act 1968

Permitted driving time and periods of duty.
– (1) Subject to the provisions of this section, a driver shall not on any working day drive a vehicle or vehicles to which this Part of this Act applies for periods amounting in the aggregate to more than ten hours.
(2) Subject to the provisions of this section, if on any working day a driver has been on duty for a period of, or for periods amounting in the aggregate to, five and a half hours and–
(a)
there has not been during that period, or during or between any of those periods, an interval of not less than half an hour in which he was able to obtain rest and refreshment; and
(b)
the end of that period, or of the last of those periods, does not mark the end of that working day,
there shall at the end of that period, or of the last of those periods, be such an interval as aforesaid.
(3) Subject to the provisions of this section, the working day of a driver–
(a)
except where paragraph (b) or (c) of this subsection applies, shall not exceed eleven hours;
(b)
if during that day he is off duty for a period which is, or periods which taken together are, not less than the time by which his working day exceeds eleven hours, shall not exceed twelve and a half hours;
(c)
if during that day–
(i) all the time when he is driving vehicles to which this Part of this Act applies is spent in driving one or more express carriages or contract carriages; and
(ii) he is able for a period of not less than four hours to obtain rest and refreshment,
shall not exceed fourteen hours.
(4) Subject to the provision of this section, there shall be, between any two successive working days of a driver, an interval for rest which–
(a)
subject to paragraph (b) of this subsection, shall not be of less than eleven hours;
(b)
if during both those days all or the greater part of the time when he is driving vehicles to which this Part of this Act applies is spent in driving one or more passenger vehicles, may, on one occasion in each working week, be of less than eleven hours but not of less than nine and a half hours;
and for the purposes of this Part of this Act a period of time shall not be treated, in the case of an employee-driver, as not being an interval for rest by reason only that he may be called upon to report for duty if required.
(5) Subject to the provisions of this section a driver shall not be on duty in any working week for periods amounting in the aggregate to more than sixty hours.
(6) Subject to the provisions of this section, there shall be, in the case of each working week of a driver, a period of not less than twenty-four hours for which he is off duty, being a period either falling wholly in that week or beginning in that week and ending in the next week; but–
(a)
where the requirements of the foregoing provisions of this subsection have been satisfied in the case of any week by reference to a period ending in the next week, no part of that period (except any part after the expiration of the first twenty-four hours of it) shall be taken into account for the purpose of satisfying those requirements in the case of the next week; and
(b)
those requirements need not be satisfied in the case of any working week of a driver who on each working day falling wholly or partly in that week drives one or more stage carriages if that week is immediately preceded by a week in the case of which those requirements have been satisfied as respects that driver or during which he has not at any time been on duty.
(7) If in the case of the working week of any driver the following requirement is satisfied, that is to say, that, in each of the periods of twenty-four hours beginning at midnight which make up that week, the driver does not drive a vehicle to which this Part of this Act applies for a period of, or periods amounting in the aggregate to, more than four hours, the foregoing provisions of this section shall not apply to him in that week, except that the provisions of subsections (1), (2) and (3) shall nevertheless have effect in relation to the whole of any working day falling partly in that week and partly in a working week in the case of which that requirement is not satisfied.
(8) If on any working day a driver does not drive any vehicle to which this Part of this Act applies–
(a)
subsections (2) and (3) of this section shall not apply to that day, and
(b)
the period or periods of duty attributable to that day for the purposes of subsection (5) of this section shall, if amounting to more than eleven hours, be treated as amounting to eleven hours only.

3820/85 EEC Regulations.

Council Regulation (EEC) No. 3820/85 of 20 December 1985 lays down, inter alia, requirements in respect of driving periods, breaks and rest periods. The sixteen charges are variously based on the following provisions of the Regulation 3820/85:

"Article 6.1 The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period,’ shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to ten hours. . . .

Article 7.1 After four-and-a-half hours’ driving, the driver shall observe a break of a least 45 minutes, unless he begins a rest period.

Article 8.1 In each period of 24 hours, the driver shall have a daily rest period of at least 11 consecutive hours, which may be reduced to a minimum of nine consecutive hours not more than three times in any one week, on condition that an equivalent period of rest be granted as compensation before the end of the following week. . . .

Article 8.2 During each period of 30 hours when a vehicle is manned by at least two drivers, each driver shall have a rest period of not less than eight consecutive hours."

Article 15 of Regulation 3820/85 is also material. It provides:

"Article 15.1 The transport undertaking shall organise drivers’ work in such a way that drivers are able to comply with the relevant provisions of this Regulation and of Regulation (EEC) No. 3821/85.

Article 15.2 The undertaking shall make periodic checks to ensure that the provisions of these two Regulations have been complied with. If breaches are found to have occurred, the undertaking shall take appropriate steps to prevent their repetition."

561/2006

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:102:0001:0013:EN:PDF

[repton]

Harry Monk:
So I need to take more break in the afternoon because I took a longer break in the morning.

Or have I mis-interpreted it?

You’re exactly right, by the letter of the law you have taken “too much” break. Doesn’t make a lot of sense really but that’s the way it is…

Paul

[repton]

Santa:
If I worked 3 hours and then took a 2 hour break, could I use the last 15 mins of that break as the first 15 mins of a second 45 min break? (so that I could do 10hrs driving), or would it be necessary to have done some driving to split the break? (ie drive round the yard).

No you couldn’t. The only way to make that work would be to move the truck so it recorded some driving time somewhere between 1h16min and 1h45min into the 2h break (i.e. timed to ensure the first bit of the break is at least 45min and the second part is between 15 and 44min so as to count as the first part of a split break).

Paul

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:
3820/85 EEC Regulations.

Council Regulation (EEC) No. 3820/85 of 20 December 1985 lays down, inter alia, requirements in respect of driving periods, breaks and rest periods. The sixteen charges are variously based on the following provisions of the Regulation 3820/85:

Article 7.1 After four-and-a-half hours’ driving, the driver shall observe a break of a least 45 minutes, unless he begins a rest period.

The requested document does not exist. - EUR-Lex

The only reason that anyone could’nt ‘interpret’ that as meaning exactly what it says is because they want to drive an artic through the spirit of the law as it stood resulting in drivers driving for 8.5 hours + with just 30 minutes break.

[wheel_nut]

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
3820/85 EEC Regulations.

Council Regulation (EEC) No. 3820/85 of 20 December 1985 lays down, inter alia, requirements in respect of driving periods, breaks and rest periods. The sixteen charges are variously based on the following provisions of the Regulation 3820/85:

Article 7.1 After four-and-a-half hours’ driving, the driver shall observe a break of a least 45 minutes, unless he begins a rest period.

The requested document does not exist. - EUR-Lex

The only reason that anyone could’nt ‘interpret’ that as meaning exactly what it says is because they want to drive an artic through the spirit of the law as it stood resulting in drivers driving for 8.5 hours + with just 30 minutes break.

And in the newer 561/2006 regulations article 7 says exactly the same:

Article 7
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall
take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes,
unless he takes a rest period.

However in 3820/85 that 45 minutes was allowed to be split into 3x15, 20+25 15+30 or even 30+15.

In 561/2006 the same 45 minutes can only be split 15 + 30 in that order. No one wanted to “drive an artic through the spirit of the law as it stood” they were correctly following the legislation of the day.

Both sets of rules were designed to be flexible for operators and drivers alike, and not every transport company had a simple schedule like 4 hours each way or equal timings like a night trunk.

You also have to remember that in those days the driver was in full control of his day or trip or week, he wasn’t pestered every eight minutes by a phone call or a computer asking him why he is off route.

[coffeeholic]

Santa:
On the same theme:

If I worked 3 hours and then took a 2 hour break, could I use the last 15 mins of that break as the first 15 mins of a second 45 min break? (so that I could do 10hrs driving), or would it be necessary to have done some driving to split the break? (ie drive round the yard).

Breaks for the tacho regs interrupt periods of driving so that wouldn’t work.

Santa:
BTW: In the OP I don’t see how the driver “saved” any time. He still had 45 mins break - whether he took it at the yard or at his destination

Me neither. The only thing I can think of is that when tipping he can only squeeze in a 30 minute break and then has to move of the bay, meaning he would have to take a further 30 minutes. By taking 15 minutes before he sets off he avoids having to take a second 30 minutes with a nett saving of 15 minutes.

[coffeeholic]

Today I ignored the spirit of the law and went with what the regs allow instead.

Moved from overnight parking area to trailer on bay which clocked 2 minutes driving. Coupled up and as I still had the red light I stuck it on break after a grand total of 12 minutes work. Sixteen minutes later I got the green light and then drove for 4 hours 27 minutes and took a 30 minute break. I then did a further 1 hour 37 minutes driving before another break while on the train. So six hours and six minutes driving with just a 30 minute break and if VOSA don’t like it they can do one as it is legal. If I hadn’t been heading home and had to catch the train I would likely have gone in excess of 8 hours with only 30 minutes break but the train screwed that.

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
3820/85 EEC Regulations.

Council Regulation (EEC) No. 3820/85 of 20 December 1985 lays down, inter alia, requirements in respect of driving periods, breaks and rest periods. The sixteen charges are variously based on the following provisions of the Regulation 3820/85:

Article 7.1 After four-and-a-half hours’ driving, the driver shall observe a break of a least 45 minutes, unless he begins a rest period.

The requested document does not exist. - EUR-Lex

The only reason that anyone could’nt ‘interpret’ that as meaning exactly what it says is because they want to drive an artic through the spirit of the law as it stood resulting in drivers driving for 8.5 hours + with just 30 minutes break.

And in the newer 561/2006 regulations article 7 says exactly the same:

Article 7
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall
take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes,
unless he takes a rest period.

However in 3820/85 that 45 minutes was allowed to be split into 3x15, 20+25 15+30 or even 30+15.

In 561/2006 the same 45 minutes can only be split 15 + 30 in that order. No one wanted to “drive an artic through the spirit of the law as it stood” they were correctly following the legislation of the day.

Both sets of rules were designed to be flexible for operators and drivers alike, and not every transport company had a simple schedule like 4 hours each way or equal timings like a night trunk.

You also have to remember that in those days the driver was in full control of his day or trip or week, he wasn’t pestered every eight minutes by a phone call or a computer asking him why he is off route.

But using the split break option ‘should’nt’,under the ‘spirit’ of the regs,result in any driving time,counted from/to any point, which involves a period which exceeds 4.5 hours without a 45 minutes of break time in it.It was exactly that argument which the MOT lost and which resulted in such examples as 8.5 hours+ of driving time with just 15 or 30 minutes break during it.However you look at flexibility the rules governing breaks and driving time are meant to work according to the simple 45 minutes break during every period involving 4.5 hours of driving time unless you finish the shift before the 4.5 hours are exceeded.Except the EU idiots did’nt see it that way.

[wheel_nut]

Carryfast:
But using the split rest option ‘should’nt’,under the ‘spirit’ of the regs,result in any driving time,counted from/to any point, which involves a period which exceeds 4.5 hours without a 45 minutes of break time in it.It was exactly that argument which the MOT lost and which resulted in such examples as 8.5 hours+ of driving time with just 15 or 30 minutes break during it.However you look at flexibility the rules governing breaks and driving time are meant to work according to the simple 45 minutes break during every period involving 4.5 hours of driving time unless you finish the shift before the 4.5 hours are exceeded.Except the EU idiots did’nt see it that way.

You are not using the split rest option at all, rest is when you are free to play with yourself etc. 3 hours uninterrupted plus 9 hours every day is quite legal

You are allowed to take 45 minutes break in two ways, either a full 3/4 hour break or 15 minutes followed by 30 minutes.

Where you are going wrong is thinking the drivers make the rules, we don’t, we just study them and utilise what we are given.

Before the EU idiots we had the UK idiots who thought it perfectly OK to drive for 5.5 hours with 30 minutes break for refreshment or recuperation

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:

Carryfast:
But using the split rest option ‘should’nt’,under the ‘spirit’ of the regs,result in any driving time,counted from/to any point, which involves a period which exceeds 4.5 hours without a 45 minutes of break time in it.It was exactly that argument which the MOT lost and which resulted in such examples as 8.5 hours+ of driving time with just 15 or 30 minutes break during it.However you look at flexibility the rules governing breaks and driving time are meant to work according to the simple 45 minutes break during every period involving 4.5 hours of driving time unless you finish the shift before the 4.5 hours are exceeded.Except the EU idiots did’nt see it that way.

You are not using the split rest option at all, rest is when you are free to play with yourself etc. 3 hours uninterrupted plus 9 hours every day is quite legal

You are allowed to take 45 minutes break in two ways, either a full 3/4 hour break or 15 minutes followed by 30 minutes.

Where you are going wrong is thinking the drivers make the rules, we don’t, we just study them and utilise what we are given.

Before the EU idiots we had the UK idiots who thought it perfectly OK to drive for 5.5 hours with 30 minutes break for refreshment or recuperation

Sorry ‘rest’ got in there by mistake meant split break option .
But EU idiots in this context meant them overturning what the UK ones had,for once,got right for a change.No one’s disputing the fact that you can split breaks but you could’nt do it in such a way where you could exceed 4.5 hours of driving time without having 45 minutes of break time.It would be interesting to find out if you could find that case which the MOT lost concerning the issue.

[coffeeholic]

Carryfast:
It would be interesting to find out if you could find that case which the MOT lost concerning the issue.

I can’t remember the name of the haulage company involved in that case but I’m pretty sure they transported chickens and may have had the word chicken or chickens in their name.

[moomooland]

ady1:
amazing,youve got every firm moaning about cost of fuel,monitoring drivers fuel,fuel bonuses and this firm allows there driver to drive round the yard 3 times before he starts his trunk ,doesnt anyone say anything to him about hisn obvious wasting of fuel

“Think its just a matter of time before management spot what’s going on like you say a total waste of fuel.”

Thanks for everyone’s comments i will be on that run next week and i will certainly be having my full 50 minute break up there.
I still think its ridiculous to have a 15 minute break after just staring your shift any one with any sense would save it for a full break after a 4hr 20min drive.

Regards Paul

[shaunebabe]

i think youll find for any break to count you have to have driven at least 1 hour 30 min

[coffeeholic]

shaunebabe:
i think youll find for any break to count you have to have driven at least 1 hour 30 min

Not true, that’s just a driver’s myth. For a break to count as a break from driving for the tacho regulations you just have to have done some driving and one minute is some driving.

[wheel_nut]

Coffeeholic:

Carryfast:
It would be interesting to find out if you could find that case which the MOT lost concerning the issue.

I can’t remember the name of the haulage company involved in that case but I’m pretty sure they transported chickens and may have had the word chicken or chickens in their name.

Was that Sun Valley Chickens which became Cargill?

[coffeeholic]

Wheel Nut:

Coffeeholic:

Carryfast:
It would be interesting to find out if you could find that case which the MOT lost concerning the issue.

I can’t remember the name of the haulage company involved in that case but I’m pretty sure they transported chickens and may have had the word chicken or chickens in their name.

Was that Sun Valley Chickens which became Cargill?

No, I remembered it the other day and it was Mayfield Chicks.

[wheel_nut]

Coffeeholic:
No, I remembered it the other day and it was Mayfield Chicks.

And lo, it appeared as if by trickery

geebee45:
Reef said:

And why does the driving time need to be reset after 45 mins has been taken that is a needless part of programming in my opinion

Basically the way that driving time and break requirements were to be interpreted was decided by a European Court ruling in the 1993 - Mayfield Chicks - where the Court ruled that once a break time of 45 minutes has been reached, the driving undertaken previously will be discounted as far as the 4.5 hour limit is concerned.

So you drive for two hours, have a break for 15 minutes drive for two hours, have a break of 30 minutes. Once you have completed the second break you start a new 4.5 hour driving period.

The driving done before the break still counts towards the ‘daily driving total.’

In this example you would need another break of 45 minutes after completing the second 4.5 hrs if you wanted to carry on to complete the daily driving total of nine or ten hours.

The Merc dashboard and digital tachos have been programmed to take this ruling into account. Only problem is that in Digital Tacho Regulation (1360/2002) they lumped ‘break’ and ‘availability’ as being the same thing, which they are not. Hence, the tacho will count any period of break or availability that is 15 minutes or more and add them together, if the results total 45 minutes or more then the driving timer is reset.

[coffeeholic]

Wheel Nut:

Coffeeholic:
No, I remembered it the other day and it was Mayfield Chicks.

And lo, it appeared as if by trickery

geebee45:
Reef said:

And why does the driving time need to be reset after 45 mins has been taken that is a needless part of programming in my opinion

Basically the way that driving time and break requirements were to be interpreted was decided by a European Court ruling in the 1993 - Mayfield Chicks - where the Court ruled that once a break time of 45 minutes has been reached, the driving undertaken previously will be discounted as far as the 4.5 hour limit is concerned.

So you drive for two hours, have a break for 15 minutes drive for two hours, have a break of 30 minutes. Once you have completed the second break you start a new 4.5 hour driving period.

The driving done before the break still counts towards the ‘daily driving total.’

In this example you would need another break of 45 minutes after completing the second 4.5 hrs if you wanted to carry on to complete the daily driving total of nine or ten hours.

The Merc dashboard and digital tachos have been programmed to take this ruling into account. Only problem is that in Digital Tacho Regulation (1360/2002) they lumped ‘break’ and ‘availability’ as being the same thing, which they are not. Hence, the tacho will count any period of break or availability that is 15 minutes or more and add them together, if the results total 45 minutes or more then the driving timer is reset.

I did a half-arsed attempt to find a link to the original ruling but couldn’t find anything, didn’t think of searching on here.

[carryfast]

Coffeeholic:

Wheel Nut:

Coffeeholic:
No, I remembered it the other day and it was Mayfield Chicks.

And lo, it appeared as if by trickery

geebee45:
Reef said:

And why does the driving time need to be reset after 45 mins has been taken that is a needless part of programming in my opinion

Basically the way that driving time and break requirements were to be interpreted was decided by a European Court ruling in the 1993 - Mayfield Chicks - where the Court ruled that once a break time of 45 minutes has been reached, the driving undertaken previously will be discounted as far as the 4.5 hour limit is concerned.

So you drive for two hours, have a break for 15 minutes drive for two hours, have a break of 30 minutes. Once you have completed the second break you start a new 4.5 hour driving period.

The driving done before the break still counts towards the ‘daily driving total.’

In this example you would need another break of 45 minutes after completing the second 4.5 hrs if you wanted to carry on to complete the daily driving total of nine or ten hours.

The Merc dashboard and digital tachos have been programmed to take this ruling into account. Only problem is that in Digital Tacho Regulation (1360/2002) they lumped ‘break’ and ‘availability’ as being the same thing, which they are not. Hence, the tacho will count any period of break or availability that is 15 minutes or more and add them together, if the results total 45 minutes or more then the driving timer is reset.

I did a half-arsed attempt to find a link to the original ruling but couldn’t find anything, didn’t think of searching on here.

So my memory is still as sharp as it was .I can still remember saying what a bunch of zb’s when I heard the ruling at the time and I still have’nt changed my mind.

[andy187]

Done similar other day.
start at 2pm get keys, digi in, vehicle checks done.

Drive round yard find trailer still on bay. Shunter says about 20 mins then i can hitch up.
So on break grab coffee had 17 mins break.

14.40 hitch up and do 4 hours driving to Penrith, swap trailers have half hour break back to yard in 3 and a half
back home by 11 pm

Paid for 9