Tempest:
If Brexit is so good You Brexiteers should volunteer to be made redundant 1st.
I did! 
(and I wouldnât be moaning - if I got made redundant again, by this point either!)
Met and spoke to an Hard Left individual whoâs an old friend of mine yesterdayâŚ
Him: âThe money for the UK to be gotten from Brexit is all a lieâ.
Me : âWot? Do you mean there isnât any, or just there isnât any under the Conservatives?â
Me: âLetâs put it another way: Iâm assuming you believe the lie that the ÂŁ350m on the side of the bus was a lie?â
Him: Huh?
Me: âLetâs get this straight. In todayâs politics, you dress up bully to look like the truth, and vice-versa. If the actual figure was so much as a million away from ÂŁ350m exactly, then it could be argued to be a lie - correct?â
Me: âSo, if itâs say, ÂŁ348m per week, then by the Leftâs reckoning - thatâs jolly good value to be thrown at Brussels each week, weâll get a fraction of it back as ârebateâ and funding for art projects, some channelled science research into this New age Religion of âMan Madeâ Climate change, and perhaps some legal spendings for the human rights representation for genders 34 through 37, and other such politically correct rubbish at this time?â
Me: âThe thought of securing that money for Parliament and future governments to spend FIRST, and worrying about turning over the government in control of spending that amount only AFTER weâve secured it - hadnât occured to you?â
Put it another way. Iâd LOVE to see a Labour government take over. They are by far, the very best at spending money in this country - and always have been. I get that.
I just donât want a Labour government that borrows to pay itâs civil service bills and/or raises taxes for ordinary working people. Thatâs what it will always be though, without harnessing the magic money tree, and hence why I donât vote Labour so farâŚ
It seems that far too many remainers have been lied to, in that in order to keep the Conservatives out of power (when theyâre IN power - so thatâs working well, isnât it?) itâs worth denying our own citizens, including the very benefit scroungers, immigrants, criminal rights, and others whoâd stand to gain some of that excess cash - everything forever in a vain attempt to keep us in austerity long enough to trigger what? - A Leftist uprisingâ â ? Sorry bud - if there were ever any âLeftist Uprisingâ, then the Nationalists would crush it, simply because they consist of people willing to fight and die for their country, against a far larger number of pacifists who wouldnât even fight their way out of a paper bag for their own menageries!
Get Brexit Done. If itâs not done - both Conservative AND Labour - will never be elected with a majority again. There wonât be a third party with enough seats large enough to go into coalition with either. Endless zombie governmentsâŚ
âŚIF we donât get Brexit done, and then work out what to spend all that surplus on AFTER that.
Remainers - please tell me why we âdonât want that money againâ. If it was âto keep the Conservatives Outâ when we donât have that money, and the Conservatives are in power until we DO - Then WTF are you all playing at? Youâre not just shooting yourselves in the feet - but forcing the rest of us to stand all around you whilst you do it! 
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Whatâs with âstinking urban estatesâ?
Provide the vast majority of people with housing of a good enough standard and theyâll be happy to look after it. Collect rubbish once a month instead of once a week, stop street cleaning and make a dirty environment and those living there wonât take any pride and wonât look after the place.
Failing to repair broken windows in buildings makes breaking the next one less of a deal. Leaving spray paint graffiti on buildings gives a level of acceptance and encourages more.
So yes, we need more housing, and not just basic boxes either.Stinking not meant in the literal sense.
Over development creating an urban hell breeds the type of contempt youâre referring to.As does so called âaffordableâ housing only ghettoes.IE development needs to be done sympathetically on the basis of maintaining the character of and close access to the rural environment and not wrecking that environment.By that standard of housing the counties surrounding London have reached their limit if not very close to it.
While whatever the arguments over the so called need for âmoreâ housing ( have you ever seen an estate agent over run with more customers than available houses for sale ).When itâs the wages and decent jobs needed to afford the available housing stock thatâs the problem.Not forcing ever more amounts of urbanisation into the South Eastern corner of the country while others parts remain an underdeveloped wasteland.
While itâs clear that the present housing policy is based on developers taking advantage the greed of âfirst time buyersâ looking for a cheap house with an inbuilt profit margin so that they can trade up to a better place at the next buyerâs expense.
People with âmiddle of the roadâ houses - cannot get someone lower down with enough of a mortgage to buy them. Thus, they are either forced to drop their sale price OR they give up, and put it out to let instead. There have been around a dozen properties put up for sale in my street in the past year, for example. Two of them are still displaying âfor saleâ boards nearly a year on, and the others were all put up for rent, having had their for sale boards taken down. The going rate around here is ÂŁ900pcm btw. The mortgage payments for a 2% mortgage is about that as well, so itâs not that people cannot afford the mortage payments - they cannot get the bloody 2% mortgages that donât exceed what theyâve got as deposits! To get a cheap mortgage now, youâre looking at LTVs of 50-60% - rather than 75-95% as would be fairly straightforward to get 10 years ago, even just after the credit crunch. House prices have been stagnant throughout that decade, simply because you cannot borrow money to bid up prices any longer! The property is worth what an incoming BTL landlord will pay for it! If the property is immaculate - youâll get the asking price. If itâs less, youâll need to drop the price to shift it. If itâs anything else? - It wonât sell at all, and itâll be put out to rent. Thatâs the Property market today!
Also the inference that the government intends to over supply the housing market with more urbanisation,especially in the south east,to the point where theyâll collapse it causing a house price deflation spiral.What could possibly go wrong.Massive urbanisation creating over supply of housing and turning semi rural areas into more City suburbs if not inner city environments.Where only the lowest paid really want to live and an exodus of the existing population to less developed areas of the country and resulting house price crash of the existing housing stock and the new estates.Leaving their builders with a load of new now virtually worthless stock to offload and the banks with a massive negative equity mountain â â â â â â â in the existing stock.Isnât that something like what happened in Spain and Ireland.Thatâll work.
Winseer:
Met and spoke to an Hard Left individual whoâs an old friend of mine yesterdayâŚHim: âThe money for the UK to be gotten from Brexit is all a lieâ.
Me : âWot? Do you mean there isnât any, or just there isnât any under the Conservatives?â
Me: âLetâs put it another way: Iâm assuming you believe the lie that the ÂŁ350m on the side of the bus was a lie?â
Him: Huh?Me: âLetâs get this straight. In todayâs politics, you dress up bully to look like the truth, and vice-versa. If the actual figure was so much as a million away from ÂŁ350m exactly, then it could be argued to be a lie - correct?â
Me: âSo, if itâs say, ÂŁ348m per week, then by the Leftâs reckoning - thatâs jolly good value to be thrown at Brussels each week, weâll get a fraction of it back as ârebateâ and funding for art projects, some channelled science research into this New age Religion of âMan Madeâ Climate change, and perhaps some legal spendings for the human rights representation for genders 34 through 37, and other such politically correct rubbish at this time?â
Me: âThe thought of securing that money for Parliament and future governments to spend FIRST, and worrying about turning over the government in control of spending that amount only AFTER weâve secured it - hadnât occured to you?â
Put it another way. Iâd LOVE to see a Labour government take over. They are by far, the very best at spending money in this country - and always have been. I get that.
I just donât want a Labour government that borrows to pay itâs civil service bills and/or raises taxes for ordinary working people. Thatâs what it will always be though, without harnessing the magic money tree, and hence why I donât vote Labour so farâŚIt seems that far too many remainers have been lied to, in that in order to keep the Conservatives out of power (when theyâre IN power - so thatâs working well, isnât it?) itâs worth denying our own citizens, including the very benefit scroungers, immigrants, criminal rights, and others whoâd stand to gain some of that excess cash - everything forever in a vain attempt to keep us in austerity long enough to trigger what? - A Leftist uprisingâ â ? Sorry bud - if there were ever any âLeftist Uprisingâ, then the Nationalists would crush it, simply because they consist of people willing to fight and die for their country, against a far larger number of pacifists who wouldnât even fight their way out of a paper bag for their own menageries!
Get Brexit Done. If itâs not done - both Conservative AND Labour - will never be elected with a majority again. There wonât be a third party with enough seats large enough to go into coalition with either. Endless zombie governmentsâŚ
âŚIF we donât get Brexit done, and then work out what to spend all that surplus on AFTER that.Remainers - please tell me why we âdonât want that money againâ. If it was âto keep the Conservatives Outâ when we donât have that money, and the Conservatives are in power until we DO - Then WTF are you all playing at? Youâre not just shooting yourselves in the feet - but forcing the rest of us to stand all around you whilst you do it!
The truth is they know that we are paying billions in net contributions.In addition to subsidising the EU in the form of the massive trade deficit and in addition the foreign aid scam which is the EU free labour market.
They consider that a price well worth paying because they view the EU as being âtheirâ country and is where their loyalties sit.Not the expendable province of the UK and thereby they put the interests of the EU over those of the UKâs as part of that loyalty.
So May,Corbyn,Cable and Sturgeon are all allied in an obvious agenda to derail Brexit.If the electorate isnât prepared to vote for UKIP then what.While itâs equally obvious that both the Con and Lab Leave vote wonât desert their respective scammer ideologically remain Parties and leaderships until they realise the level of the deception which May and Corbyn are foisting on the country and itâs too late and Brexit is sabotaged beyond the point of any return.With the tactic being an obvious cross party agenda of delay and playing for time and keeping us tied to the EU until the Cons deliberately commit political suicide at the next election.So as to purge themselves of any Leave tendency and the country is then under the jackboot of that cross Party remain coalition.
While if the government had the slightest intention of delivering Brexit then it would be Hoey not Starmer as shadow Brexit minister and supposed Leavers not remainers at the top of the Cons and weâd be out by now.No Customs Union/Partnership,no ECJ,no further payments,no âtransition periodâ,no ifs no buts.
Winseer:
People with âmiddle of the roadâ houses - cannot get someone lower down with enough of a mortgage to buy them. Thus, they are either forced to drop their sale price OR they give up, and put it out to let instead. There have been around a dozen properties put up for sale in my street in the past year, for example. Two of them are still displaying âfor saleâ boards nearly a year on, and the others were all put up for rent, having had their for sale boards taken down. The going rate around here is ÂŁ900pcm btw. The mortgage payments for a 2% mortgage is about that as well, so itâs not that people cannot afford the mortage payments - they cannot get the bloody 2% mortgages that donât exceed what theyâve got as deposits! To get a cheap mortgage now, youâre looking at LTVs of 50-60% - rather than 75-95% as would be fairly straightforward to get 10 years ago, even just after the credit crunch. House prices have been stagnant throughout that decade, simply because you cannot borrow money to bid up prices any longer! The property is worth what an incoming BTL landlord will pay for it! If the property is immaculate - youâll get the asking price. If itâs less, youâll need to drop the price to shift it. If itâs anything else? - It wonât sell at all, and itâll be put out to rent. Thatâs the Property market today
I could post numerous adverts around here in which people are trying to flog poky 2 bed terrace or semis or even flats and maisonettes in zb over developed Greater London areas for as close a price as they can get to something like a decent 3 bed semi or even detached in a nice Green Belt area in Surrey.Ironically and conveniently the estate agents getting away with describing Greater London as Surrey 
in a desperate and dodgy attempt to assist such moves.Thatâs the reality of the âhousing ladderâ.IE a big unrealistic subsidised upward move scam at the next mug âfirst time buyersââ expense and so it goes on.Until the lower ends of that âhousing ladderâ run out of profit potential.At which point the prospective freeloading social climbers start shouting for the developers to build more âaffordableâ starter homes to provide the required profit potential for more such moves and all the better if those homes are built in a nice outside of London area to give them a head start.Ironically the demands in question turning those areas into the same over developed crap holes that everyone is trying to avoid and get away from.
Meanwhile added to that is the cluster zb contained within the contradiction of the government obviously inferring that it will over supply the housing market with the intention of deflating it.Which would obviously result in a house price crash caused by the combination of those selling up and running away from the resulting urbanisation of previously nice areas and the increased new build supply.Leaving the builders and banks with a load of depreciating stock and negative equity exposure.Thatâll work.
Weâve already had quite enough âTransition Periodâ being forced to wait until March 2019. Because we keep on paying in the meantime, everyone else is going to drag their feet knowing that âAnother day of nothing done=Another ÂŁ50m into Brussels coffersâ.
I still maintain that defaulting the payments (need the civil service on board to do thisâŚ) would result in the EU reacting quickly, in booting us all the way out practically overnight.
Why?
If the money flow stops - then the EU are still paying umpteen British MEPs their wages, expenses, etc. for starters.
As Farage is on record saying âThe day we MEPs get sacked - will be the happiest of my life!â
Trick there, is WE MEPS not âMe, all by myselfâ which has already been attempted a couple or three times of course.
It is thought by Remainers and the Hard Left that âThe EU gives us a little back of the billions this country pays it.â If we leave the EU, the Tory scum would use that money to lower taxes, and the Leftists causes far and wide - would be lost forever.
A complete misconception of course.
Get the brexit complete, then kick the Tories into touch.
The public are NEVER going to vote for a majority Remainer party again. Theresa May had enough Remainers to lose her majority, and only Ex-UKIP voters plus students temporarily shifting their votes to Corbyn - pushed the Labour poll up last year.
Their performace in the council elections last week, whilst OK was hardly âAwesomeâ. Normally in council elections, turnout is low (as it was last week as well) and the effect of the protest vote is thus more pronounced.
Labour, should have done a lot better - and the Libdems should have done a lot more poorly.
Meanwhile, in the House of Lords - there are far too many Libdem peers there, 100% remainers that they are.
As it stands at present, the more establishment feet are dragged in getting Brexit done - the more likely that weâll continue lumbering from one crisis to another, this weeks one being âout of control violent crimeâ and âYou canât arrest anyone of colour, because itâs against their yuman rightsâ â â â â â â â â .
Being finally out of the EU would solve all of these problems, and yes - I would tolerate a Labour government ONCE the money is secured. But Iâd tolerate NO further âRemainerâ governments ever again.
The EU has set itself on a course against America now, already having become Hostile to Russia, and other more minor sovereign states around the world.
We stay in the EU, and we can rely on the EU to take us to WWIII, be it against Russia, China, or now America.
Are the EU going to insist on the UK sending troops to defend Iran from Israeli/American aggression?
Are the EU going to insist on bending the knee to Borgia-like Kiev - and invading East Ukraine on Kievâs behalf, thus provoking a war with Russia?
Are the EU going to keep bleeding Britain, France, Italy, and even Germany dry - merely to chase policially correct causes like the Islamic Immigrants rights to molest our women, steal our benefits, hog our shortage of housing, and not even renounce Islam along the way? They are not even European citizens to start with FFS. The EU sets up all kinds of lofty rules that we must obey, but others outside who hate us all - can break with impunity?
The EU as a political entity is a demon. I donât give a toss about âWhat about so-and-so leader somewhere else where it doesnât affect me and mineâ, so spare me the speeches slagging off Trump, Netenyahu, Orbin, Putin, et al whoâve only got in common that they are of the Right, and that friendship with such leaders would be good for the UK, rather than Bad for it.
If our government wants to make enemies - then letâs start with Saudi Arabia, since they fund that damnable so-called âReligionâ and run it like a business, with their holy sites, etc.
If itâs wrong for Saddam Hussein to gas a village full of people, and we respond by killing a million plus innocents in that same country - then how about a Regime Change war vs anywhere that has Militant Islam running it? Left Wing version like Turkey/Iran or Right Wing like Saudi Arabia - I care not.
Islam is our enemy - not âRight Wing Leadersâ of nuclear powers! 
Winseer:
Weâve already had quite enough âTransition Periodâ being forced to wait until March 2019. Because we keep on paying in the meantime, everyone else is going to drag their feet knowing that âAnother day of nothing done=Another ÂŁ50m into Brussels coffersâ.I still maintain that defaulting the payments (need the civil service on board to do thisâŚ) would result in the EU reacting quickly, in booting us all the way out practically overnight.
I donât know why Brexiteers keep working themselves into a tizzy about the fact that the UK has not defaulted on its contribution to collective projects. The reality of default is simply that other states may default suddenly on their obligations, and the UK state wonât be trusted again for at least a generation. Bear in mind that for countries like Germany, they pay in even more on the net basis that Brexiteers refer to.
The public are NEVER going to vote for a majority Remainer party again. Theresa May had enough Remainers to lose her majority, and only Ex-UKIP voters plus students temporarily shifting their votes to Corbyn - pushed the Labour poll up last year.
Their performace in the council elections last week, whilst OK was hardly âAwesomeâ.
It wasnât astounding, but it showed appreciable progress for Labour - and showed appreciable deterioration for the Tories (who were already in a very distant second place from 2014). Also, have you forgotten that nearly half of the country voted Remain? I say that simply to remind you not to get carried away. There are many, like me, who support Corbynâs Brexit strategy, but are vehemently opposed to a right-wing Brexit and wouldnât for a second stand for a party espousing yours or Carryfastâs views on the subject.
Normally in council elections, turnout is low (as it was last week as well) and the effect of the protest vote is thus more pronounced.
But thatâs even worse, because low turnouts favour both older and more conservative voters, so if Labour is doing well under a low turnout, that is even more catastrophic for the Tories.
Labour, should have done a lot better - and the Libdems should have done a lot more poorly.
Itâs easy to argue that naturally Tory areas like Kensington and Chelsea ought to have fallen to Labour, if voters in that constituency had any conscience, but the fact that it hasnât isnât an indictment of Labour - itâs simply a reflection of the class division, where even a council that has caused citizens to be roasted to death, retains support because those who died were not representative of the class of most people in that area. It shows that the rich are indeed waging a class war.
Also, the LibDems are still more or less at their nadir - still garnering some of the lowest results for their party in a generation.
this weeks one being âout of control violent crimeâ and âYou canât arrest anyone of colour, because itâs against their yuman rightsâ â â â â â â â â .
So, you donât think the spike in crime is anything to do with the fact that the Tories have cut police numbers dramatically since 2010?
Are the EU going to insist on the UK sending troops to defend Iran from Israeli/American aggression?
I would look at it the other way, the EU will be free from being lumbered with US/Israeli aggression. Remember, the 1973 oil crisis that Carryfast harps on about, was at its root due to UK support for Israel. It was attributed to Wilson in the 60s that the UK was kept out of the Vietnam war, which became an American-led quagmire just as Afghanistan and Iraq have.
The EU as a political entity is a demon. I donât give a toss about âWhat about so-and-so leader somewhere else where it doesnât affect me and mineâ, so spare me the speeches slagging off Trump, Netenyahu, Orbin, Putin, et al whoâve only got in common that they are of the Right, and that friendship with such leaders would be good for the UK, rather than Bad for it.
If our government wants to make enemies - then letâs start with Saudi Arabia, since they fund that damnable so-called âReligionâ and run it like a business, with their holy sites, etc.If itâs wrong for Saddam Hussein to gas a village full of people, and we respond by killing a million plus innocents in that same country - then how about a Regime Change war vs anywhere that has Militant Islam running it? Left Wing version like Turkey/Iran or Right Wing like Saudi Arabia - I care not.
Islam is our enemy - not âRight Wing Leadersâ of nuclear powers!
I disagree. It is âright wing leadersâ that have created the very problem with Islamic fundamentalism - often by supporting it militarily, as the US did with Osama Bin Laden.
Rjan:
have you forgotten that nearly half of the country voted Remain? I say that simply to remind you not to get carried away. There are many, like me, who support Corbynâs Brexit strategy, but are vehemently opposed to a right-wing Brexit and wouldnât for a second stand for a party espousing yours or Carryfastâs views on the subject.I would look at it the other way, the EU will be free from being lumbered with US/Israeli aggression. Remember, the 1973 oil crisis that Carryfast harps on about, was at its root due to UK support for Israel. It was attributed to Wilson in the 60s that the UK was kept out of the Vietnam war, which became an American-led quagmire just as Afghanistan and Iraq have.
You seem to forget that nearly half isnât as much as more than half.The fact that all too obvious Remainers like you and Starmer form Corbynâs supposed idea of so called âBrexitâ,by definition means Remain not Brexit at all.Donât you think that the more than half will be more âvehementâ than your bunch of treacherous remainer losers in that regard.Let me guess now youâll say that the Leave vote wasnât voting for Leave at all they actually wanted to remain which is basically your and Starmerâs position.While itâs clear that your bs âleft wing Brexitâ is actually just a Socialist remainer plot to infiltrate and hijack the Leave process to create the Remain result that the Remainers couldnât get democratically.Nothing new there in the Socialist MO.
As for your anti Israeli rant.Youâre just showing your true typically anti semitic Socialist colours to add to your ideologically Soviet Socialist ones.In trying to re write history to show that it was Israel that was the aggressor in 1973 and not the scum bag Arabs and their commy backers.While youâd have obviously happily stood by while your preferred Arab rabble invaded Israel and then slaughtered the population which it had pledged to do since 1947 if not before.Anti Semitism together with an opposing weird predisposition and liking for the ethnic Arabic groups historically being ideologically linked with Socialism.Nothing new there whether it was Stalin,Breshnev,Hitler or the piece of zb Livingstone.
As for the Vietnam War,like the Korean War,it was always going to be a pointless exercise unless the US and its allies were willing to also take on China.By which point the Globalists already saw more of an opportunity in taking advantage of the exploitative Communist system.Rather than bothering to fight with it any further.On that note you seem to have conveniently forgotten that Heathâs Con administration also obviously chose not to join the Australians in Vietnam either.With good reason as Nixonâs and then Reaganâs grovelling sell out to the Chinese proved.Both being an insult to all those who lost their lives fighting against the Chinese backed VC aggressors.No surprise Socialism again supporting the aggressor then re writing history with Socialist propaganda to make it all our fault just like in the case of the Arab Israeli wars.
As for Remainers letâs get this right.They want a pro radical Saudi Wahabbist and a pro,or sometimes anti,Iranian revolutionary and pro Turkish opportunist Islamic and anti moderate Alawite Assad,anti Israeli,anti US,anti perceived Russian Nationalist,pro Chinese ( who actually support Russia ) foreign policy.Or have I missed something.
Carryfast:
You seem to forget that nearly half isnât as much as more than half.
But youâre missing my point in its context, which is Winseer saying that the public will ânever againâ vote for a Remain party. I simply say, donât get carried away in hubris.
The fact that all too obvious Remainers like you and Starmer form Corbynâs supposed idea of so called âBrexitâ,by definition means Remain not Brexit at all.
Youâre quite right that it does not mean your vision of Brexit. It is an anti-neoliberal agenda, based on clamping down on undercutting.
Donât you think that the more than half will be more âvehementâ than your bunch of treacherous remainer losers in that regard.
Who is being âtreacherousâ? Iâm not wringing my hands over the referendum result.
Let me guess now youâll say that the Leave vote wasnât voting for Leave at all they actually wanted to remain which is basically your and Starmerâs position.While itâs clear that your bs âleft wing Brexitâ is actually just a Socialist remainer plot to infiltrate and hijack the Leave process to create the Remain result that the Remainers couldnât get democratically.Nothing new there in the Socialist MO.
Youâre quite right, Labour is there to âhijackâ the mendacious right-wing Brexit driven by the loons in the Tory party, deprive it of its support, and instead give an outlet to ordinary people who simply want an end, for example, to the bossesâ use of migrants to undercut pay and conditions (which does, incidentally, involve leaving the single market).
As for your anti Israeli rant.Youâre just showing your true typically anti semitic Socialist colours to add to your ideologically Soviet Socialist ones.
So is being critical of Israeli politcs now âanti-semiticâ?
In trying to re write history to show that it was Israel that was the aggressor in 1973 and not the scum bag Arabs and their commy backers.
I didnât say Israel was the aggressor in 1973. I countered Winseerâs suggestion that being unyoked from American foreign policy would be a bad thing, because it has simply been one disaster after another.
While youâd have obviously happily stood by while your preferred Arab rabble invaded Israel and then slaughtered the population which it had pledged to do since 1947 if not before.Anti Semitism together with an opposing weird predisposition and liking for the ethnic Arabic groups historically being ideologically linked with Socialism.Nothing new there whether it was Stalin,Breshnev,Hitler or the piece of zb Livingstone.
The nub of the problem in Israel is that it is the Israelis who have consistently invaded, expanded, and expropriated against international law. All attempts at controlling their more extreme political elements have been vetoed by the US. The mess with Iran at the moment is yet another example.
And I thought as a ânationalistâ you preferred to keep out of international matters, and let other nations do what they do?
As for the Vietnam War,like the Korean War,it was always going to be a pointless exercise unless the US and its allies were willing to also take on China.
Itâs a pointless exercise because itâs pure capitalist aggression against the ideology of other (perfectly successful) nations, nothing to do with helping ordinary people in those places.
As for Remainers letâs get this right.They want a pro radical Saudi Wahabbist and a pro,or sometimes anti,Iranian revolutionary and pro Turkish opportunist Islamic and anti moderate Alawite Assad,anti Israeli,anti US,anti perceived Russian Nationalist,pro Chinese ( who actually support Russia ) foreign policy.Or have I missed something.
On the contrary, Iâm not supporting arms sales to Saudi Arabia. On Syria we have, over the arc of the civil war, both supported and bombed both sides. On Israel, it needs a firm hand to bring peace, not indulgence and unqualified bankrolling. And Iâm not anti-US, Iâm simply anti-neoliberal. As for Russia and China, they are in general stable, modern, progressive regimes whose excesses we are more than capable of controlling and whose authoritarian and illiberal elements we are more than capable of bettering.
Rjan:
But youâre missing my point in its context, which is Winseer saying that the public will ânever againâ vote for a Remain party. I simply say, donât get carried away in hubris.Youâre quite right that it does not mean your vision of Brexit. It is an anti-neoliberal agenda, based on clamping down on undercutting.
Who is being âtreacherousâ? Iâm not wringing my hands over the referendum result.
Youâre quite right, Labour is there to âhijackâ the mendacious right-wing Brexit driven by the loons in the Tory party, deprive it of its support, and instead give an outlet to ordinary people who simply want an end, for example, to the bossesâ use of migrants to undercut pay and conditions (which does, incidentally, involve leaving the single market).
So is being critical of Israeli politcs now âanti-semiticâ?
I didnât say Israel was the aggressor in 1973. I countered Winseerâs suggestion that being unyoked from American foreign policy would be a bad thing, because it has simply been one disaster after another.
The nub of the problem in Israel is that it is the Israelis who have consistently invaded, expanded, and expropriated against international law. All attempts at controlling their more extreme political elements have been vetoed by the US. The mess with Iran at the moment is yet another example.
And I thought as a ânationalistâ you preferred to keep out of international matters, and let other nations do what they do?
Itâs a pointless exercise because itâs pure capitalist aggression against the ideology of other (perfectly successful) nations, nothing to do with helping ordinary people in those places.
On the contrary, Iâm not supporting arms sales to Saudi Arabia. On Syria we have, over the arc of the civil war, both supported and bombed both sides. On Israel, it needs a firm hand to bring peace, not indulgence and unqualified bankrolling. And Iâm not anti-US, Iâm simply anti-neoliberal. As for Russia and China, they are in general stable, modern, progressive regimes whose excesses we are more than capable of controlling and whose authoritarian and illiberal elements we are more than capable of bettering.
Ironically,as Iâve said,I think that Winseer has naively way under estimated the strength of the Remain agenda.Especially with the Leave vote spread out across Constituency boundaries.With the Remain vote being stronger than Leave when counted under the flawed UK electoral system based as it is on concentration of votes.Rather than the aggregate in the case of the referendum and ironically the MEP PR voting system.
Assuming that you supposedly donât want âmyâ idea of Brexit ( Leave means Leave ) then how are you supposedly going to deliver your supposed anti undercutting agenda.When the fact is the there canât possibly be any difference between Moggâs or Farageâs or any other version of the definition of Leave.The only difference,as Winseer rightly says,is what we do âafterâ the full return of sovereignty.IE Benn,Shore,Powell and now Hoey and seemingly Mogg are all agreed on the issue of âsovereigntyâ.While your lot are clearly deliberately trying to confuse the issue of what we âdoâ with the that sovereignty âafterâ weâve got it,with watering down that sovereignty and with it the definition of Leave,using the diversionary red herring of so called left v so called right Brexit.IE youâre clearly all about Remain in all but name not a Bennite v Moggite Brexit after the fact.As would be expected of ideological Remainers pretending to be for âBrexitâ.The idea that youâre supposedly against any âCustoms Unionâ being no more believable as part of that.Bearing in mind that keeping that part of our EU membership alive is clearly a part of the Remainers agenda including Starmerâs as being their life line to keeping that Remain dream alive.The fact is Socialists canât/wonât do Brexit because they are ideologically opposed to what can only be the ideologically Nationalist position of secession.Which is why you voted Remain not Leave and no reason to think that you ( or Starmer ) could or would ever possibly change your position in that regard.Which is why itâs Starmer and not Hoey running the show.
As for Israel itâs âbecauseâ Iâm a Nationalist that I support Israelâs right to exist including itâs right to defend itself.With the establishment of buffers like the Golan etc,to defend itself against historic Arab aggression,being part of that right to defence.
As for the motives of China thereâs no way that they need their current amount of military spending and hardware just to defend themselves.Thatâs clearly an offensive capability with the implications of that,combined with a country which canât feed its unsustanable levels of over population,being obvious.
While the EU is clearly running a pro Saudi policy including deliberately flooding Europe with Wahabbist colonisation.Let alone the cluster zb of its other contradictory anti Assad,pro Iran,anti Russia,foreign policies.Not that Israel or the US or Assad or Russia are immune from such zb wittery in that regard,in the contradiction between them seeing any common ground between Alawite Syria v Islamic Revolutionary Iran.Or Israeli/US pro Erdogan,pro Saudi,anti Alawite,anti Iran policy. 
When the simplest explanation,that radical Islam is playing off Assad and Russia v the US etc while China is more of a threat to us now than it was between 1945-70,is probably the best.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
Winseer:
The best solutions to all this - would be the simplest ones. âTurn the clock backâ if no one can come up with a better idea.
Whatever solution might eventually dawn on our useless politicians - itâll still be â â â â â â â millions of people off, either way.Best then, we put back the original â â â â -off then.
Bring back the Hard Border, and if need be - tear up the Good Friday Agreement.
If we cannot move forward to leave the EU, then let us at least slam into reverse - and back out.
At present, the Lords have now told May we cannot leave the EU with âNo Dealâ which means all the EU have to do to scupper Brexit - is never offer us a deal.
But whereâs your democratic mandate for tearing up the Good Friday Agreement and going back to war? And donât bother to argue that the British people voted for that in the referendum - the people of NI certainly didnât. The implication of the referendum result is just as consistent with ceding âspecial statusâ and having a border in the Irish Sea, but in truth people simply hadnât considered the issue beforehand.
As a Loyalist Protestant married to a Catholic of Irish ancestory - I donât recall ever being asked if I bloody well WANTED a âGood Friday Agreementâ in the first place, that amounted to a surrender to the IRA and their demands. Tearing up that good friday agreement right now - would represent no better or worse than what Trump has just done with the Iranian treaty.
Iâd applaud any politician with the balls to do such a think, just as in time - Trumpâs move to take the tide out on this damnable EU/Liberal/Lefty/Islam pact - will one day go down in HIstory as a âgreat momentâ. Yup, the more they push at us formerly moderate rights - the more to the Right weâll retreat to!It was never considered because the so called âborderâ that youâre referring to âalreadyâ exists on both sides of the Irish sea and the Irish land border for ânon CTA statusâ traffic just as it will exist after Brexit.With the border in question actually being strengthened as an EU member state.But you already know that.
The headache of Brexit is that NI unexpectedly voted Remain at the local level, which should mean nothing, since NI is still part of the UK - but everyone on both sides has seized upon to mean that âNI is now the logjam to stop Brexitâ. Nope. Just tear up the Good Friday agreement, put the hard border back, and if the EU want to have nothing more to do aith ANY of the constituent parts of the UK - then leave them to their alliance with all those others on the long-term wrong side of history.express.co.uk/news/uk/267834 ⌠r-migrants
While you and your liar remainer cronies are effectively saying that the Good Friday agreement was effectively dependent on the UK staying within the EU or the EEA and that non EU membership by either Eire or UK also means an iron curtain at the Irish border by default.Exactly where is that written within any of the relevant treaties ?.
The party that completes Brexit to the Brexiteerâs satisfaction - will enjoy a long honeymoon period in office with a thumping majority in the 2022 election.
Thing is, that will NOT be the Conservatives - should they fail to get Brexit done by then at the latest.
Itâs time the Left Remainers woke up to the simple fact that the Magic Money Tree is theirs for the taking - but being in opposition as they are, they feel they need to scupper the Tories completing Brexit, to deny them this honeymoon period.
Fair enough. Trouble is, if you shout against Brexit long enough, despite being a 40 year plus Eurosceptic - people rightfully wonder âWhoâs side is this Corbyn guy really on?â
If you lefties keep coming up with the same old propaganda, then I guess after a while you start to believe it yourselves. It doesnât mean anyone not âhard-of-thinkingâ canât make head nor tail of it though.
Stalling Brexit to try and bring down the Tories - is totally unecessary - since whoâs gonna vote Labour if Brexit isnât completed by the next election?
If Labour are going to complete Brexit - then their plan on how they will achieve this âmiracleâ - needs to be laid out NOW, so the opposition can truly be called a government in waiting.
Itâs fair to say that a lot of UKIP voters from 2015 - went over to Corbynâs Labour at the election last year.
This shocked a lot of people - that UKIP could âLend their voteâ over like this. Perhaps the perception was âItâs a safe protest voteâ, since Corbyn was odds-on to lose 50-100 seats. That he ended up gaining seats, getting 40% of the poll - and STILL not winning - comes down to the same mathematics that allowed Macronâs people across the channel to categorically state that âLe Pen is guaranteed to win the first round, and guaranteed to lose the secondâ. The critical mass was in too early, and the divisive nature of what âVoting Rightâ represents in France - is turned on itâs head compared to this country, where itâs seen as the wise old that are the idiots, and the unwise (left-wing-brainwashed) young in our education establishments - that are against stuff for WHAT reason was it? They believe some lies once put out as propaganda, but now believed as Canon Law.
FFS. Stop listening to people, and start making observations of your own instead.
That people like me fear a Civil War, but wouldnât shy away from a war vs the EU as a political entity - should be taken just a little more seriously, lest one ends up leading to the other.
âTell old Pharaoh - Let my people go!â
The EU cannot succeed without the support of the Right. That theyâve already made the Right their enemy - just prevents them from gaining critical mass in their polls any longer. The pendulum has swung to itâs greatest extent, and itâs backswing will take out everyone who tries to catch this âfalling knifeâ.
The NHS continues to get worse. That meants whatever is âdone and dustedâ already - clearly isnât going to be saving the NHS.
Either we stop, right in the middle of the flames, or we keep on walking.
Itâs the Remainers who are stuck in the past. The recent past that is.
Fancy believing that we cannot turn the clock back to Hard Borders, Customs checks, Different Currencies, and NO EU ruling it all!
Whatâs it for? What does it achieve for those very people whoâs cash is relied upon?
A vote is only one personâs voice. â â â â off an entire majority though, no matter how small - and we then face the choices of either more civil strife, leading to Civil War - OR we all admit that the EU as a âGreat Experimentâ is OVER. There just are not enough wealthy people paying in compared to the entitled that keep on taking out.
Weâve had decades of opporunity to get âTax Reformâ done - but in the new Post-Truth information age - weâre fast approaching the day when âTaxationâ itself - is no longer enforceable.
âCivil Disobedienceâ will always be more effective when done by those that can and do.
The Left donât have a plan beyond âGet Elected.â.
The Rightâs plan beyond being elected isnât much better it seems. Is it more than just âPrevent the Left getting inâ? They could do that easily by getting things done, including some Left flagship policies. That they donât, exposes that they donât have much of a plan either of course. The Centerists have tried to appeal to those disillushioned by both sides, but after a while - even former centerists like me woke up - and realize weâd been had by shifty politicanâs lies on all sides - ALL ALONG. Iâll judge in future, by what I see getting done. NOT by the Rhethoric, which seems to go on and on rather too long, considering itâs a crock of â â â â â on both sides all too often. 
Winseer:
As a Loyalist Protestant married to a Catholic of Irish ancestory - I donât recall ever being asked if I bloody well WANTED a âGood Friday Agreementâ in the first place, that amounted to a surrender to the IRA and their demands. Tearing up that good friday agreement right now - would represent no better or worse than what Trump has just done with the Iranian treaty.
Iâd applaud any politician with the balls to do such a think, just as in time - Trumpâs move to take the tide out on this damnable EU/Liberal/Lefty/Islam pact - will one day go down in HIstory as a âgreat momentâ. Yup, the more they push at us formerly moderate rights - the more to the Right weâll retreat to! [/colo
The Irish question is a contradiction from the point of the Irish civil war in which so called Nationalists couldnât get their heads around the idea that the right to self determination works both ways.To Sinn Feinâs naive support for Remain, based on the non existent,but what would be the correct,idea of a Confederal,as opposed to a Federal,Europe.Although to be fair until now I didnât realise that they were actually standing for a Confederal Europe which would be a game changer regarding my own Leave vote too.Which explains what Iâd wrongly thought was a contradiction in their position between Irish Nationalism v EU rule.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_Fein#EU
However without that possibility then surely their position can only be Leave.On that note Iâd guess that the Northern Irish Remain vote is irrelevant and void being based on a misrepresentation as to what it was actually voting for.IE an EU that doesnât and never will exist.So there we have it a large part of the NI Remain vote is based on a contradiction regarding what it was actually voting for.That being a Confederation of Sovereign Nation states not a Federation of subservient non sovereign states.
On that note the Leave side would do a lot better in honouring the Good Friday agreement.While also explaining to the Sinn Fein vote that without the possibility of a Confederal Europe its Remain position contradicts its own Party line and ideological position.IE Remain is mutually exclusive with Sinnâs Feinâs goals.While Leave in the form of hard Brexit certainly isnât mutually exclusive with the ongoing good faith of the Good Friday agreement.
Unless that is Sinn Fein is actually just another Socialist rabble masquerading as Nationalists like the SNP.Which would explain the lie of a Party that says one thing in its mission statement.While standing for the exact opposite in the form of selling out Irish Nationalism to the EUSSR and whoâs idea of a Confederal Europe actually means a Federal Socialist Europe.In which case what if any supposed âsovereignâ European state citizen doesnât want to follow Sinn Feinâs bs climate change and pro immigration line.Or whose idea of Nationalism means the right of Israel to exist and defend itself,or the right of the Loyalist Community in NI to not have to be absorbed into Eire but wants to remain part of the UK.Or for that matter how does the idea of âa Minister for Europeâ fit the idea of National sovereignty ?.If it looks and sounds and flies like a lying Socialist duck then itâs a duck.
Carryfast:
On that note Iâd guess that the Northern Irish Remain vote is irrelevant and void being based on a misrepresentation as to what it was actually voting for.
So, do you think that a vote won because of a misrepresentation, or lie is not a valid vote?
I admire the principle, but in the real world, that means very little, sad to say. How many politicians would survive long if their votes were withdrawn when the lies and false promises were discovered?
Franglais:
Carryfast:
On that note Iâd guess that the Northern Irish Remain vote is irrelevant and void being based on a misrepresentation as to what it was actually voting for.So, do you think that a vote won because of a misrepresentation, or lie is not a valid vote?
I admire the principle, but in the real world, that means very little, sad to say. How many politicians would survive long if their votes were withdrawn when the lies and false promises were discovered?
In this case itâs a clearly stated contradiction on the one hand ( rightly ) saying that they want a Confederal Europe made up of âindependentlyâ governed âsovereignâ states.While on the other saying that they want âaâ âministerâ for Europe running the show and we âmustâ all tow Sinn Feinâs,typically Socialist,global warmist,pro immigration line.Which makes a mockery of the idea of âsovereigntyâ and independence and each state doing its own thing.Let alone the idea of Ireland for the Irish when they want to join Merkel in flooding the place with an Islamic demographic to take the place over from the Brit Loyalist one.IE these muppets are obviously all about pushing European Socialism and Blairite globalism not Irish Nationalism.Thatâs the fault of their vote base being obvious Socialists masquerading as Nationalists when it suits them.Not anything to do with any actual lies being told.
When the expected line of any Nationalist Party and vote worth its salt would be Sinn Fein standing on both sides of the border for âbothâ Irexit âandâ Brexit and maintaining the Good Friday agreement as part of that.
At least until such time as Europe sees sense in going for a Confederal Europe and in which national sovereignty means and does what it says.
Carryfast:
In this case itâs a clearly stated contradiction on the one hand ( rightly ) saying that they want a Confederal Europe made up of âindependentlyâ governed âsovereignâ states.While on the other saying that they want âaâ âministerâ for Europe running the show and we âmustâ all tow Sinn Feinâs,typically Socialist,global warmist,pro immigration line.Which makes a mockery of the idea of âsovereigntyâ and independence and each state doing its own thing.Let alone the idea of Ireland for the Irish when they want to join Merkel in flooding the place with an Islamic demographic to take the place over from the Brit Loyalist one.IE these muppets are obviously all about pushing European Socialism and Blairite globalism not Irish Nationalism.Thatâs the fault of their vote base being obvious Socialists masquerading as Nationalists when it suits them.Not anything to do with any actual lies being told.
I would put the issue this way. Most of Sinn Feinâs support is not driven by any true ânationalistâ agenda, but by resistance to Tory rule at Westminster and the right-wing Unionists generally, and a series of grievances (both recent and ancient) against the British state.
Itâs the same with the SNP - they are wildly popular in Scotland and have thrown up some of the best politicians of the current generation, and yet when it came down to it their ânationalistâ agenda was beaten comfortably in the Scottish independence referendum, and so too Scotland voted decisively to Remain in the EU referendum (their party ambition nowadays seems to be becoming an independent member state of the EU).
When the SNP was a centre-right nationalist party, it struggled to gain traction (itâs previous high-point in October 1974 was mostly at the expense of the Tories) but now that it has established a track record as a centre-left party, voters have said yes please to its left wing agenda whilst leaving the nationalist family heirloom firmly on the shelf. The fundamental source of itâs broader ânationalistâ appeal today is opposition to the Tories at Westminster, nothing more than that. Until Corbyn was elected, the SNP was clearly to the left of Scottish Labour, and their landslide in 2015 was clearly at the expense of the vestiges of New Labour.
When the expected line of any Nationalist Party and vote worth its salt would be Sinn Fein standing on both sides of the border for âbothâ Irexit âandâ Brexit and maintaining the Good Friday agreement as part of that.
Indeed, and yet once upon a time Sinn Fein was clearly in favour of Irish reunification (this seems to be downplayed nowadays). The obvious implication is that they are not a nationalist party. They are simply a left-wing, anti-Tory party.
At least until such time as Europe sees sense in going for a Confederal Europe and in which national sovereignty means and does what it says.
The EU more or less is a confederation, with the mere ambition to be a union.
Rjan:
I would put the issue this way. Most of Sinn Feinâs support is not driven by any true ânationalistâ agenda, but by resistance to Tory rule at Westminster and the right-wing Unionists generally, and a series of grievances (both recent and ancient) against the British state.Itâs the same with the SNP - they are wildly popular in Scotland and have thrown up some of the best politicians of the current generation, and yet when it came down to it their ânationalistâ agenda was beaten comfortably in the Scottish independence referendum, and so too Scotland voted decisively to Remain in the EU referendum (their party ambition nowadays seems to be becoming an independent member state of the EU).
When the SNP was a centre-right nationalist party, it struggled to gain traction (itâs previous high-point in October 1974 was mostly at the expense of the Tories) but now that it has established a track record as a centre-left party, voters have said yes please to its left wing agenda whilst leaving the nationalist family heirloom firmly on the shelf. The fundamental source of itâs broader ânationalistâ appeal today is opposition to the Tories at Westminster, nothing more than that. Until Corbyn was elected, the SNP was clearly to the left of Scottish Labour, and their landslide in 2015 was clearly at the expense of the vestiges of New Labour.
When the expected line of any Nationalist Party and vote worth its salt would be Sinn Fein standing on both sides of the border for âbothâ Irexit âandâ Brexit and maintaining the Good Friday agreement as part of that.
Indeed, and yet once upon a time Sinn Fein was clearly in favour of Irish reunification (this seems to be downplayed nowadays). The obvious implication is that they are not a nationalist party. They are simply a left-wing, anti-Tory party.
At least until such time as Europe sees sense in going for a Confederal Europe and in which national sovereignty means and does what it says.
The EU more or less is a confederation, with the mere ambition to be a union.
Which can only be confirmation what Iâve said a Socialist Party masquerading as Nationalists.When what they really mean is that they only recognise democracy that is to the advantage of Socialism and hide under the banner of Nationalism and National sovereignty and secession when it suits them to remove themselves from any agenda that they percieve as going against Socialism.While expecting everyone else to kow tow to any type of perceived Socialist majority which they can gerrymander by selectively imposing foreign Federal rule on the country when it suits them and then taking advantage of secession when it doesnât.
As for a âConfederationâ of independent Sovereign states,which Sinn Fein are âclaimingâ that they stand for ( Conditional or Contra take your pick Federation meaning the right to agree to disagree in the form of national state sovereignty and by definition the sovereign right of opt out or substitution over decision making within the Federation ) no that is totally different to the unconditional âUnionâ of subservient non sovereign states,subject to Commissioner ( Politburo ) and QMV cross state rule which is the definition of a Federation and what weâve got in the case of the EU and what Sinn Fein like every other Remainer is âactuallyâ knowingly supporting.To the point where âtheyâ are willing to lie about what they actually stand for if they think that it will further their ultimate goal of a Socialist EU that actually rules us all,rather than a Nationalist Ireland.On that note no thanks as a Nationalist both English and Irish I view the Soviet Union,or the obvious plan for an EUSSR,as being even worse than Lloyd Georgeâs/Churchillâs or Thatcherâs UK.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
On that note Iâd guess that the Northern Irish Remain vote is irrelevant and void being based on a misrepresentation as to what it was actually voting for.So, do you think that a vote won because of a misrepresentation, or lie is not a valid vote?
I admire the principle, but in the real world, that means very little, sad to say. How many politicians would survive long if their votes were withdrawn when the lies and false promises were discovered?
BOTH sides mis-represented stories in the run-up to the referendum. By far the most of the âbogusâ elements - came from the Remain ESTABLISHMENT however, which quite frankly - Iâm amazed Leave managed to hold onto the 52% poll at against such headwinds of the Media and Government establishment pushing their brand of misleading the public over what must have sounded like âa voice crying in the wildernessâ of Vote Leaveâs efforts.
Whilst the Remainers like to bang on about the ÂŁ350m on the side of the bus being a âlieâ, we also got told that Farageâs âBreaking Pointâ poster was âwrongâ (Was it?) and Cameron, would respect and implement what he decided⌠Making the actual declaration on the ballot paper itself a âlieâ. He not only âdidnât do the deedâ - He didnât impress on anyone else in the conservative party to do it either! Theresa May might as well have declared âBecause we lost seats in the election, weâd decided to not implement the results. Those Tories whoâve been voted out can re-take their seats in the commons, and those newbie elects that thought they would be sitting down on the green benches for the first time - can just go quietly into the night.â
The trouble with âDemocracyâ is that Mobile technology combined with the Internet - has given everyone a voice that can afford either or both access points to the media, aka âSocialâ media in particular.
Weâve all got different ways of thinking, different skill sets, differing opinions, and different beliefs - BUT we all use the same MONEY.
The Referendum result should have been about MONEY first and foremost.
By the start of business Monday 27th June, we should across that weekend - stopped the payments to Brussels, and honoured any payments owed for goods in transit, whilst at the same time expecting a reciprocal arrangement from Brussels. I.e. they stopped the rebates, and honoured payments for their goods in transit to us.
THIS would have been a smooth âTransitionaryâ arrangement to âkeep on paying for the GOODS AND SERVICES ONLYâ rather than âPaying the club membership moniesâ as it were.
Iâm sure even the most avid gambler among you would baulk at the chance to âPay ÂŁ10 to enter Ladbrokes, and claim your free ÂŁ5 bet at the counter. Wow Wee!â
If we cannot enter Ladbrokes for Free - we donât want your stinking ÂŁ5 â â â â â â â â â bet - thanks very much!
(For those that donât gamble, any âFree Betâ usually has to be bet on something that you either wonât likely win on, like âThe winner of the Grand Nationalâ OR the âfree betâ is taken off the winning return - thus if you bet on a long-odds-on favourite, you might get to collect a few pence from the cashier - as your total return on that free bet.
It ainât worth it even as a âFreestyleâ bet of course. Paying ÂŁ10 for a ÂŁ5 voucherâ â ?
Thatâs what paying money to Brussels to be the member of a trading club that we actually lose money on already - does for the UK.
If these payments were halted, then the trade would have continued on autopilot in reality, because Remainers wouldnât want to stop their access, whilst even the most â â â â â â â â Brexiteers - wouldnât object to âfull access continuingâ - providing the UK ceases paying for it via the Brussels contributions any more!
This notion that âWe must pay, and continue to payâ is the sort of deal we would have expected from Hitler, had he successfully invaded in 1940.
The Jews might like to dress up the â â â â Menace as being all about them, but in actual fact they lost 6m to the Slav (read: Eastern European) losses being around 10 times that number.
Hitler, more than anything else - wanted to get rid of those who blocked him politically. If the same thing were to happen in this country as in Germany, then the modern equivalent today would be Asian business leaders, shopkeepers, and local pillars of the community taking the modern place of the 1940âs Jews, and âResisting Taxpayersâ taking the place of the Slavs from 1940. This notion that Hitler was âRightâ rather than âHard Leftâ has been pushed way into the background, as is the simple fact that the Jews were NOT the â â â â âs âMain Victimsâ.
If we donât learn from the history - we will be repeating it in this country, but with Right Wingers being the Victims trying to resist the encroachment of âRobber Baronâ Liberal Socialism, which is nothing like Proper socialism, in that those running the show - are not being taxed to death by their own warped system!
What do Right Wingers want? - Value for the money they spend, mostly via taxes.
What do Left Wingers want? - TO destroy the Right, and everything they stand for.
Which one is Hitler most like?
Thereâs no âRight Wing Hostilityâ in "Not wanting to pay higher taxes so Joe Lazy Barsteward can get more benefits/faster track access to NHS treatment/free prescriptions/free council tax/free accommodation, and even the ability to go on holiday at the drop of a hat, because one doesnât have to worry about being told âNoâ when you submit a holiday form.
What was the main think âRemainersâ got out of their side of the argument?
âSystem working well. Iâm alright jack, and I donât care that 52% of people who vote donât care for what I think rocks, because their pain is my joy.â
Any âHostilityâ is entirely from the Left To the Right, using the traitor center as a lightening rod. 
Proper âConservatismâ has almost become an underground movement these days.
The âConservative Partyâ have shyed away from National issues, shyed away from Financial Prudence, Shyed away from Taxpayer Concerns, and even shyed away from aiming at a more equal society. (Positive Discriminiation - merely puts the boot on the other foot.)
Proper âConservativeâ Law and Order would chuck you in jail for commiting a crime be it White on Black, Black on Asian, Asian on Hispanic, or Hispanic on White. You donât get thrown into jail faster because youâre white, or totally ignored in your crime because youâre not⌠But thatâs exactly what weâve now become. âChip-On Shoulderâ Ethnics always demanding their pound of flesh out of us whities. Itâs like treading on eggshells for us white workers these days! You can get fired for saying something politically incorrect to even others of your own rank in the workplace!
We Rights need to stop letting the centerists set us up against the Lefts of course.
If you combined âRaceâ issues with âIdealogyâ - you end up with this absurd scenarioâŚ
âI am Black - on the Right side.â
Carryfast:
Which can only be confirmation what Iâve said a Socialist Party masquerading as Nationalists.
But you make it sound so underhand, when really the voters well-understand the the nature of these parties. Both the SNP and Sinn Fein have undergone evolution over their lifetimes, but as I say the defining feature of their supporters is not an ideology of nationalism (in any sense you understand it), but as mere anti-Westminster parties. Plaid Cymru is the same. They are all antibodies to what has been the predominantly right-wing politics of England, and their shared cultural heritage has allowed that resistance to crystallise around supposedly nationalist parties, but the ânationalismâ doesnât really go much deeper than that.
With the possible exception of Sinn Fein, it is probably going too far to say they are âsocialistâ parties, but there is a tinge of âsocialism in one countryâ to all of them - their demands for home rule and devolved powers is mainly so that they can implement a more left-wing agenda than that of the Tory-dominated British government, and to provide political structures and a platform to fight back against the Tories.
When what they really mean is that they only recognise democracy that is to the advantage of Socialism and hide under the banner of Nationalism and National sovereignty and secession when it suits them to remove themselves from any agenda that they percieve as going against Socialism.
Youâre on the right track but I donât think you have it quite right. All of these regional parties contain (or did once contain) fundamentalists who are(/were) hard-line ânationalistsâ. But theyâve never had substantial electoral support or political prominence on that basis. What they have morphed into is left-wing parties, who rattle the sabre of secession whenever that left-of-Tory agenda is threatened or stymied - not purely as a bluff, but as a genuine threat that they are not going to continue participating in a union governed by the right-wing tendencies of the Home counties (which is really the main rump of Tory support nowadays - left-wing parties have a stonking margin over the Tories in all cities including London, in the North generally, in Wales, in Scotland, and in Northern Ireland).
While expecting everyone else to kow tow to any type of perceived Socialist majority which they can gerrymander by selectively imposing foreign Federal rule on the country when it suits them and then taking advantage of secession when it doesnât.
The truth is that the country overall is more left-wing than it is right-wing, and like I say when it is broken down geographically, all regions except the âSouthâ of England (basically, the area beneath a line drawn from the Wash to the Severn, excluding London) are decisively left-wing by significant margins.
If there was a system in GB of proportional representation rather than constituencies, Labour and the SNP combined would have outdone the Tories marginally in seats in 2017, then there would be the LibDems with another 8% of seats (and they are generally considered to be to the left of the Tories, even if not by much), and then another 7% of seats would be represented by minor parties that are, on the whole, left-wing splinter parties.
Winseer:
Whilst the Remainers like to bang on about the ÂŁ350m on the side of the bus being a âlieâ, we also got told that Farageâs âBreaking Pointâ poster was âwrongâ (Was it?) and Cameron, would respect and implement what he decidedâŚ
If I remember correctly, Farage himself disowned the ÂŁ350m a week claim. There is one thing I will say about Farage is that he could perhaps frequently be accused of misrepresentation by omission, and he certainly associates with crooks and liars, but when put on the spot he is usually frank - he does appear to have that integrity (and of course as a one-man show he is only ever accountable for himself).
By the start of business Monday 27th June, we should across that weekend - stopped the payments to Brussels, and honoured any payments owed for goods in transit, whilst at the same time expecting a reciprocal arrangement from Brussels. I.e. they stopped the rebates, and honoured payments for their goods in transit to us.
THIS would have been a smooth âTransitionaryâ arrangement to âkeep on paying for the GOODS AND SERVICES ONLYâ rather than âPaying the club membership moniesâ as it were.
The problem with that idea is that half the British working class would also have been laid off over the weekend, and the entire Brexit agenda would have sunk to the bottom of the sea immediately as soon as a large number of people lost even a single dayâs pay. Even Hitlerâs Enabling Act took a couple of months to implement. You really should get out of the habit of thinking that this was a realistic idea - itâs not how a multi-trillion pound economy such as ours can be run, and the more you talk nonsense to yourself the more unreasonable and remote the real world seems.
This notion that âWe must pay, and continue to payâ is the sort of deal we would have expected from Hitler, had he successfully invaded in 1940.
The reality is, it took both world superpowers running at full steam, a variety of resistance movements in almost every European nation, plus the British economy on an total war footing that left almost everything utterly worn out by the end of the war and lumbered it with 60 years of war debts, just to bring Hitler to his knees. Youâre living in the clouds when you imagine that if Britain defaulted on its (modest and freely-entered-into) obligations for just the next couple of years, that it would be their problem rather than ours.
This notion that Hitler was âRightâ rather than âHard Leftâ has been pushed way into the background, as is the simple fact that the Jews were NOT the â â â â âs âMain Victimsâ.
One of Hitlerâs main victims was the âhard leftâ, and whilst the Jews werenât his only victims, it is still fair to say that as a group they were one of the main victims - and perhaps unlike socialists who were direct targets of the â â â â regime, Jews as a religious group were purely scapegoats (and the main figures in the â â â â regime put it on record that this was the case). Even in respect of the stereotype of Jews as international financiers (which was not true even then), the reality is that wealthy Jews were untouched (having had the means and the forewarning to flee or bribe their way out), and it was mainly working class Jews that suffered who could not be considered responsible for anything whatsoever.
Thereâs no âRight Wing Hostilityâ in "Not wanting to pay higher taxes so Joe Lazy Barsteward can get more benefits/faster track access to NHS treatment/free prescriptions/free council tax/free accommodation, and even the ability to go on holiday at the drop of a hat, because one doesnât have to worry about being told âNoâ when you submit a holiday form.
If youâre against laziness, then you are primarily against shareholders collecting dividends in exchange for idleness, or idle beneficiaries who inherit wealth and family trusts, and you are also primarily for a policy of full employment, both of which are left-wing policies, not right-wing ones. You probably donât hear about these wealthy idlers however, because you probably donât reside in the same areas and social circles as they do, and you donât read the sorts of papers that constantly make an example of them.
You and Carryfast by far have some of the most wild and confused views about what âleftâ and ârightâ are in the political context.