I-shifts & other auto box attrocities

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
481

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Looking at the I-shift spec sheet again, it appears that, by changing up three gears at 1950rpm, you get about 950rpm in the next gear. This may be a good compromise, giving you some of the improved acceleration (and maybe a small fuel saving)

:open_mouth: :confused: :unamused:

Maybe if it’s just a unit running solo and you’re in a hurry to get somewhere to collect a loaded trailer. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Or a once off to join a busy motorway before settling down for 400 miles on the limiter. We ain’t doing quater mile drag races all day long.

482

well as lenny says is dayly work in finland to drive 60 gross,and it,s thrue every instuctor in this country thell us to go to driving speed as fast as possible to save fuel,20 years ago they said like carryfast,time and engines change :smiley: :smiley: and every day road load motor and driver make a combination of how to do it best :smiley: cheers benkku

483

bma.finland:
well as lenny says is dayly work in finland to drive 60 gross,and it,s thrue every instuctor in this country thell us to go to driving speed as fast as possible to save fuel,20 years ago they said like carryfast,time and engines change :smiley: :smiley: and every day road load motor and driver make a combination of how to do it best :smiley: cheers benkku

No one is saying don’t get up to speed as fast as possible.But using the whole rev range and as few gears as possible to do it will cost fuel.

20 years ago they said the same as 20 years before that,at least in the case of powerful turbocharged engines,where running them up to peak power is going to cost more money in fuel,than the work which the engine does between peak torque and peak power is worth in most cases.The laws of physics say that nothing has changed.Including those 90% of drivers who think that using all the rev range between the start of the torque curve to peak power foot to the boards with as few gear changes as possible is the most economical way to drive a truck. :open_mouth: :unamused:

Ironically the result of all that is that drivers like fly sheet have now been lumbered with autos which seem to be able to be driven in just the same way. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

484

kr79:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Looking at the I-shift spec sheet again, it appears that, by changing up three gears at 1950rpm, you get about 950rpm in the next gear. This may be a good compromise, giving you some of the improved acceleration (and maybe a small fuel saving)

:open_mouth: :confused: :unamused:

Maybe if it’s just a unit running solo and you’re in a hurry to get somewhere to collect a loaded trailer. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Or a once off to join a busy motorway before settling down for 400 miles on the limiter. We ain’t doing quater mile drag races all day long.

I think that’s what I’ve been saying driving a truck isn’t the same thing as getting an empty rigid or a tractor unit up to speed as fast as possible.If it’s loaded then there are no one offs.

485

Carryfast:
No one is saying don’t get up to speed as fast as possible.But using the whole rev range and as few gears as possible to do it will cost fuel.

20 years ago they said the same as 20 years before that,at least in the case of powerful turbocharged engines,where running them up to peak power is going to cost more money in fuel,than the work which the engine does between peak torque and peak power is worth in most cases.The laws of physics say that nothing has changed.Including those 90% of drivers who think that using all the rev range between the start of the torque curve to peak power foot to the boards with as few gear changes as possible is the most economical way to drive a truck. :open_mouth: :unamused:

Ironically the result of all that is that drivers like fly sheet have now been lumbered with autos which seem to be able to be driven in just the same way. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Do you totally ignore what people have posted :question: Or are you really just a wind up :question:

Kevin has proven the theory that giving it some welly will actually lower fuel consumption and decrease journey times, V8 Lenny agrees with him as he adopts the same methods, the science of it all agrees too, yet here you are with your literary diarrhea again :unamused:

90% of drivers do not run the engine to max rpms and then shift to the highest possible gear, so where you get that figure from I have no idea :unamused: If 90% of drivers did do that then the numbers, that have been proven, would make the 10% the liability and therefore the need for AMTs would not exist :open_mouth:

You seem to inhabit a strange world where you have all the answers and everyone else is wrong :unamused:

So just in case everyone else in the industry, from drivers to designers is wrong, please tell us all how we should be doing it, start out with your ideal vehicle spec and then tell us all how we should drive it, in your own words though please, the youtube videos are a PITA if you’re reading the forum off your smart phone :wink:

486

It would be nice to hear what the manufacturers would say about these comments.I`m sure they put the green band on the rev counter as an indication to where the needle should be for fuel efficient driving.The driver trainers i have heard about tell you to keep the needle in the green and block change ,i asked 1 about the autos 1 day and the fact that they hold onto a gear at times too long and he told me i was accelerating too fast and the revs were too high to get the next gear,he told me to let up on the accelerator to slow the thing down and it would change up .I will stick to my own style of driving keeping in the green where possible and avoiding autos like the plague

487

I bet the ideal vehicle will be double drive. :smiley:

What the assessor guy said rungs true ramone. Apparently these autos can adapt to different driving styles. Now after the last few days my truck can’t decide who’s driving either Lewis Hamilton or miss daisy and easing off the throttle was encouraging down changes. Hopefully it will settle down tomorrow.

488

newmercman:

Carryfast:
No one is saying don’t get up to speed as fast as possible.But using the whole rev range and as few gears as possible to do it will cost fuel.

20 years ago they said the same as 20 years before that,at least in the case of powerful turbocharged engines,where running them up to peak power is going to cost more money in fuel,than the work which the engine does between peak torque and peak power is worth in most cases.The laws of physics say that nothing has changed.Including those 90% of drivers who think that using all the rev range between the start of the torque curve to peak power foot to the boards with as few gear changes as possible is the most economical way to drive a truck. :open_mouth: :unamused:

Ironically the result of all that is that drivers like fly sheet have now been lumbered with autos which seem to be able to be driven in just the same way. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Do you totally ignore what people have posted :question: Or are you really just a wind up :question:

Kevin has proven the theory that giving it some welly will actually lower fuel consumption and decrease journey times, V8 Lenny agrees with him as he adopts the same methods, the science of it all agrees too, yet here you are with your literary diarrhea again :unamused:

90% of drivers do not run the engine to max rpms and then shift to the highest possible gear, so where you get that figure from I have no idea :unamused: If 90% of drivers did do that then the numbers, that have been proven, would make the 10% the liability and therefore the need for AMTs would not exist :open_mouth:

You seem to inhabit a strange world where you have all the answers and everyone else is wrong :unamused:

So just in case everyone else in the industry, from drivers to designers is wrong, please tell us all how we should be doing it, start out with your ideal vehicle spec and then tell us all how we should drive it, in your own words though please, the youtube videos are a PITA if you’re reading the forum off your smart phone :wink:

I’ve already done that.730 Scania with 18 speed fuller.Just don’t drive the thing by running it up to peak power using as few gears as possible to get it up to speed.If kr has proved that’s not the case and it’s better to just give it some welly between 950 rpm up to around 2,000 I’ve yet to see the fuel consumption figures which would prove it.But let me know if they’re out there. :unamused:

I think you’re confusing actual fuel flow rates,in the sense of what goes to the injectors compared to what gets returned to the tank under full load between peak torque and peak power,with SFC,but that’s a totally different issue that’s obviously not worth getting into here. :unamused: :wink:

489

well must say after having a car crash and smashing my arm, i love my fm i shift to bits, wish i had it with two good arms :smiley: :smiley:
let everyone have a 10 speed spicer as part of the test, then see how many pass it :laughing: :laughing:

490

Carryfast:
I think you’re confusing actual fuel flow rates,in the sense of what goes to the injectors compared to what gets returned to the tank under full load between peak torque and peak power,with SFC,but that’s a totally different issue that’s obviously not worth getting into here. :unamused: :wink:

So you don’t understand them, is that what you’re saying :question:

The fuel used to calculate an SFC figure is the fuel consumed, the clue is in the name Specific Fuel Consumption so it is a measurement of the fuel that is consumed which means that it is the amount of fuel that reaches the injector nozzle, not how much is pumped from the tank :bulb:

So we have your choice of lorry, now tell us why you chose that and how should we drive it and the reasons why :question:

491

newmercman:

Carryfast:
I think you’re confusing actual fuel flow rates,in the sense of what goes to the injectors compared to what gets returned to the tank under full load between peak torque and peak power,with SFC,but that’s a totally different issue that’s obviously not worth getting into here. :unamused: :wink:

So you don’t understand them, is that what you’re saying :question:

The fuel used to calculate an SFC figure is the fuel consumed, the clue is in the name Specific Fuel Consumption so it is a measurement of the fuel that is consumed which means that it is the amount of fuel that reaches the injector nozzle, not how much is pumped from the tank :bulb:

So we have your choice of lorry, now tell us why you chose that and how should we drive it and the reasons why :question:

I think I do understand but tell me more I’m interested in this theory of holding onto gears up to peak power before upshifting the thing.

So are you saying that the flow rate is less,the same,or (a lot) more at peak power than it is at peak torque and if it’s less at peak torque then is it worth the extra fuel to hold onto the gear and take it on up to peak power before upshifting it or not :question: .

I’ve told you my choice of lorry.I’ve also told you how I’d drive it by using a multi speed transmission as the closest thing you’ll get to a CVT and keeping the engine running as near to peak torque as possible because that’s more fuel efficient than running it up to peak power.Which probably explains why they put the green band of the rev counter around the torque peak not the power peak. :bulb:

But if you know different I’d be interested to find out when that situation changed and wether that green band has been changed on all the truck rev counters in line with that theory. :open_mouth: :wink:

492

All this tecko stuff gives me a headache, all my driving life ( for a living since1969) Ive driven by feel & sound not looking at dials & my use of diesel has never been questioned, in fact few weeks ago was 13th out of 180 on fuel economy & driving style (telematics said so) & I am on a job & finish so not condusive to economic driving. I would think that most drivers good & bad will prob be the same its only journos & anoracks that would bother talking about peak touqre power etc, Drivers drive how they drive :unamused:

On autos i wouldn`t agree either about just being a steering wheel attendant because just like Eaton twin spilltter , range change, merc eps,etc etc, you stiil have to learn their traits :exclamation:

Fysheet seems to have disapeared his original post was I shift & other, I dont think he was looking for Driving lessons especialy as it posted on the old codgers forum, we dont do conflict on here we just mull over old times, maybe the post just be moved to the pro forum so more of the tecko guys could join in :bulb:

493

greek:
All this tecko stuff gives me a headache, all my driving life ( for a living since1969) Ive driven by feel & sound not looking at dials & my use of diesel has never been questioned, in fact few weeks ago was 13th out of 180 on fuel economy & driving style (telematics said so) & I am on a job & finish so not condusive to economic driving. I would think that most drivers good & bad will prob be the same its only journos & anoracks that would bother talking about peak touqre power etc, Drivers drive how they drive :unamused:

On autos i wouldn`t agree either about just being a steering wheel attendant because just like Eaton twin spilltter , range change, merc eps,etc etc, you stiil have to learn their traits :exclamation:

Fysheet seems to have disapeared his original post was I shift & other, I dont think he was looking for Driving lessons especialy as it posted on the old codgers forum, we dont do conflict on here we just mull over old times, maybe the post just be moved to the pro forum so more of the tecko guys could join in :bulb:

Nobody is giving driving lessons, we’re discussing the merits of various driving styles, there’s some science involved as a means of supporting various opinions, but you can either choose to read those parts or skip through them :bulb:

You say that the thread should be removed as it doesn’t fit in with your idea of the forum, yet it is on this old codgers forum and it’s now on page 17, so that tells me that it’s popular enough amongst the old codgers, as far as I know, the only one on here who is not yet well past the halfway post on this mortal coil is KR79 and he is admittedly not into the science, although he’s learning from it, the rest of the posters (except me :laughing: ) are a bunch of silly old gits who love their lorries, that’s why they’ve taken the time throughout their lives to learn all the good information and now they take the time to come onto this forum and share it with the rest of us :wink:

The internet is just the same as the TV, if you don’t like what you see, switch channels and find something you do like, no point staying on a channel you don’t like and moaning all the way through it, unless the missus is forcing you to watch something :laughing:

And just to rub salt into your wounds, you’re the first one in seventeen pages to mention telematics :open_mouth: You big anorak :laughing: :laughing:

494

Blimey this is getting well beyond me. Does it matter how much fuel flows its what’s in the tank at the end of the day or not in the tank that matters. Your a better man than me 18 gears on a 730 you will have a left arm like Popeyes changing gear like that.
Anyway in my humble Volvo 380 at 32 Ton so not to shabby the green band is between 1000 and 1500 rpm. But as an indicator of economy I find the turbo boost gauge more useful. Yes keep it in the green When you are up to speed but don’t waste time getting there in the first place.

495

Hi, All ,

H’mmm a 730 Scania and a 18 speed Fuller. I reckon with a 730 you would , with the power you’ve got , need about 8 of them , at most.

I don,t know about Popeyes arm but I don.t think your arm would stop moving and it’s to be hoped you’ve got an air assisted clutch cos you’d finish up with a left leg like a Sumo wrestler.
NOW a 730 and an I-Shift , that I can live with , it really would be a case of sit back and let it get on with it . Well I can dream!

Cheers Bassman

496

Stick the new merc giga space cab on it and I’d say that would be my perfect tractor.

497

kr79,

Do you not think that that is going over the top a wee bit, now if you was a lottery winner??
What you said about the I-Shift, they do adapt to different driving styles, but I would think with the experiments you have been doing , your’s won’t know if it’s coming or going !!

Cheers Bassman

498

No it has been a bit odd to make matters worse I’m running between hackney and mile end so not realy getting to flex its legs to settle it back down.

499

Bassman:
Hi, All ,

H’mmm a 730 Scania and a 18 speed Fuller. I reckon with a 730 you would , with the power you’ve got , need about 8 of them , at most.

I don,t know about Popeyes arm but I don.t think your arm would stop moving and it’s to be hoped you’ve got an air assisted clutch cos you’d finish up with a left leg like a Sumo wrestler.

Everyone seems to be confusing the benefits,of having lots of close ratios available,and the idea that having an 18 speed box means using every single gear between 1’st and 18’th. :open_mouth: :unamused: :confused: :wink:

The fact is driving a 620 let alone a 730 by using as few gears as possible over a rev range between 950 rpm-2,000 would probably result in a fuel bill which would cost more than the rate for the job. :open_mouth: :laughing:

Whereas using ‘enough’ of those 18 gears to keep the thing in a very narrow rev range,as close as possible to the centre of it’s torque plateau,would probably be as,if not more,productive and fuel efficient as using a 450 powered wagon at 40-44 t gross let alone 60 t gross which is where the government (should be) looking to create more efficiency in the industry. :bulb:

500

I think you will find newmercman I have contributed to the early part of the post on automatics, but you & the encyclopedia of everything trucking (cf) to me have gone off track IMHO with long winded waffles, so Il take me wounded self away :cry: oops, before I go you stated that one or two would be learning from the post you could be right, but there is one that comes to mind hasnt learned a thing he knows it all :unamused:
Right finaly I`m off but looking forward to your next pic post of one of your trips that side of the pond I enjoyed that first one you did.