newmercman:
The roundabout problems that you get with an auto shift are not the fault of the gearbox, but the driver
The computer cannot see, so it does what it thinks is correct, all of a sudden you stop slowing down and stick your right boot down and expect it to know what to do, it takes a bit of time to react, hardly the fault of the machine is it
I shift doesn’t seem to suffer from the problem. Im normally quite gentle on the throttle and I shift always seems to get the right gear. The zf in the MAN seems very slow and indecisive.
newmercman:
The roundabout problems that you get with an auto shift are not the fault of the gearbox, but the driver
The computer cannot see, so it does what it thinks is correct, all of a sudden you stop slowing down and stick your right boot down and expect it to know what to do, it takes a bit of time to react, hardly the fault of the machine is it
I shift doesn’t seem to suffer from the problem. Im normally quite gentle on the throttle and I shift always seems to get the right gear. The zf in the MAN seems very slow and indecisive.
I have tried all sorts of things with the zf Dafs at roundabouts to no avail,if you are loaded and trying to get out at a particularily busy roundabout then its pot luck ,down with the throttle gently or heavy and nothing ,then a surge of power then it wants to change up ,so you may say well put it in manual then,whats the point of having an auto in the first place ,the i shift is the best but i prefer to be in control of the gearbox.The computer shouldnt be in control so it shouldnt need to know what happening thats the job of the driver … or it used to be
Which is why there is a manual feature on the auto shifts, the manufacturers are aware of the limitations, that’s why they fit a manual button, you still have to think, you can’t just expect the lorry to do all the work for you
With the zf auto I found the best technique was to go on and off the throttle quickly then on the throttle as normal as some bright spark decided to block manual changes on the MAN I hads ecu.
newmercman:
Which is why there is a manual feature on the auto shifts, the manufacturers are aware of the limitations, that’s why they fit a manual button, you still have to think, you can’t just expect the lorry to do all the work for you
It really amazes me how many drivers can waffle about how they can drive this box and that box and were prepared to figure them out when presented with them. Learning all the tricks like bunny hopping a twinny etc and refining technnique. Yet give them an auto and they seem to just go into stoopid mode and sit here grumbling about how they don’t work
Learn them, play with them and you’ll get the best out of a product that makes your day more relaxing and less physical.
I drive an I shift and love it. Rarely need to slip into manual mode from one end of Europe to the next. I had a DAF on trial last week and although it’s not up to the I shift in terms of shift speed and brains, it took no more than a bit of experimentation after picking it up and running to load to figure out what and when I would need to do to maximise things. I toddled over to Holland and back, running wide, including a fair bit of national running with those lovely Dutch half assed curbed roundabouts etc etc and never found myself stranded, stuck or looking stoopid. Even inching under a crane was done easily enough. Although it lacks the clutch control finesse of my Volvo, it’s learn-able and manageable. All in all it was a very relaxing drive
newmercman:
Which is why there is a manual feature on the auto shifts, the manufacturers are aware of the limitations, that’s why they fit a manual button, you still have to think, you can’t just expect the lorry to do all the work for you
It really amazes me how many drivers can waffle about how they can drive this box and that box and were prepared to figure them out when presented with them. Learning all the tricks like bunny hopping a twinny etc and refining technnique. Yet give them an auto and they seem to just go into stoopid mode and sit here grumbling about how they don’t work
Learn them, play with them and you’ll get the best out of a product that makes your day more relaxing and less physical.
I drive an I shift and love it. Rarely need to slip into manual mode from one end of Europe to the next. I had a DAF on trial last week and although it’s not up to the I shift in terms of shift speed and brains, it took no more than a bit of experimentation after picking it up and running to load to figure out what and when I would need to do to maximise things. I toddled over to Holland and back, running wide, including a fair bit of national running with those lovely Dutch half assed curbed roundabouts etc etc and never found myself stranded, stuck or looking stoopid. Even inching under a crane was done easily enough. Although it lacks the clutch control finesse of my Volvo, it’s learn-able and manageable. All in all it was a very relaxing drive
Maybe youre the driver others need to be measured against then, "toddling" around Holland is hardly everyday english driving, reversing uphill into tight spots where youve got to edge forward and backwards several times to get into tight spots where you press the accelerator gently with no response then a little harder ,nothing then a little harder and the thing lurches either forward or backwards .They maybe learnable and manageable but so is the much more ideal gearstick and clutch pedal which is much more flexible in all operations ,the autos are great on motorways but take them into everyday shunting duties and they are useless ,or maybe i need training.We had a driver trainer arrive from the Daf main dealer to show us how to drive these autos ,i took him out in 1 of our units picked up a trailer and went to reverse onto a particularly tight loading bay where you have to reverse down a steep slope then jacknife onto the loading bay with inches to spare ,when the vehicle was in the jacknife position i showed him the problem of gently pressing the accelerator with no response ,then a little more pressure and nothing then a lurch backwards,his response was in front of an audience who all laughed with him ,“you dont know how to drive it” i replied by driving the vehicle back to the top of the hill and jumping out and saying "you show me how its done " red faced he declined and muttered that there was something wrong with the box ,so maybe you have found a new niche in life Billybigrig a driver trainer for Daf
Ramone is absolutely spot on, might be he takes a pride in doing the job proper and not just keep going till something solid stops the truck moving, maybe like some of us he has to go to awkward tight and steep inclined delivery points.
I think some of the auto luvvies only go ro RDC’s and reverse gently in unlimited space on billiard smooth surfaces.
ramone:
Maybe youre the driver others need to be measured against then, "toddling" around Holland is hardly everyday english driving, reversing uphill into tight spots where youve got to edge forward and backwards several times to get into tight spots where you press the accelerator gently with no response then a little harder ,nothing then a little harder and the thing lurches either forward or backwards .They maybe learnable and manageable but so is the much more ideal gearstick and clutch pedal which is much more flexible in all operations ,the autos are great on motorways but take them into everyday shunting duties and they are useless ,or maybe i need training.We had a driver trainer arrive from the Daf main dealer to show us how to drive these autos ,i took him out in 1 of our units picked up a trailer and went to reverse onto a particularly tight loading bay where you have to reverse down a steep slope then jacknife onto the loading bay with inches to spare ,when the vehicle was in the jacknife position i showed him the problem of gently pressing the accelerator with no response ,then a little more pressure and nothing then a lurch backwards,his response was in front of an audience who all laughed with him ,“you dont know how to drive it” i replied by driving the vehicle back to the top of the hill and jumping out and saying "you show me how its done " red faced he declined and muttered that there was something wrong with the box ,so maybe you have found a new niche in life Billybigrig a driver trainer for Daf
Ohh meow
I use the term toddle rather than glam it up like some big clogs/wallet on a chain merchant would
A lot of the places I go to involve god awful access not helped when you’re wide too. Blindsides uphills and downhills I often have to struggle to get the trailer past without ripping it’s guts out on them. To the point of often having to lay blocks down and creep onto and off them sometimes. The trailer I “toddled” to Holland with barely gets on and off the ferry and I often have to have the linkspan angle tweaked to creep it up and on in reverse. I loaded under a gantry crane that involved a jack knife creep to get under it with barely room to straighten the unit up. When the 12 foot wide load was on it was a painfully slow creep out from under it. At 700 grand in value (and that’s not an expensive one)I don’t take chances with them
My job’s far from ■■■■ easy bay to bay RDC stuff. I cannot afford to [zb] up, I don’t bounce off anything. If I did I’d be unemployed PDQ
As for driver trainer ■■ Surely not needed as they know it all, all ready
Very interesting, reading the opinions of experienced drivers/operators of these new things. Apart from the emissions nonsense, they are about the only significant difference between the old and the modern. The automated gearchange appears to have become popular because it reduces opportunities for driver abuse although, judging by the reports of warranty claims, the electronics seem more ham-fisted than the majority of people! Add this to the cost of the extra hardware in the first place, and they become difficult to justify.
OK, some drivers prefer an easy life, but there must be a market for simple technology which takes a bit of skill to use. With modern electronics, drivers can be monitored more closely- how about a speed sensor on the end of the crankshaft and another on the input shaft to the gearbox, with a recording device in the vehicle’s computer? This would pick up most cases of clutch slipping, jerky gearchanges etc. There is already facility to record speed, engine speed and gear selection. The bad drivers would soon be rooted out and, best of all, if the system goes wonky, it doesn’t stop the job.
kr79:
Some of the scanias have overdrive top gearboxes so on anything less than level ■■■■■■■ it will drop down to 11 which is direct top.
The ones we had were overdrives 56 mph came up at 1100 rpm but they had kick down installed so if you floored the accelerator it would drop to 11 th ,they were excellent on fuel in 12 th but to drive them on kick down didnt make sense they were no quicker they just revved higher and used more fuel,we eventually had the kick down removed
ramone:
Maybe youre the driver others need to be measured against then, "toddling" around Holland is hardly everyday english driving, reversing uphill into tight spots where youve got to edge forward and backwards several times to get into tight spots where you press the accelerator gently with no response then a little harder ,nothing then a little harder and the thing lurches either forward or backwards .They maybe learnable and manageable but so is the much more ideal gearstick and clutch pedal which is much more flexible in all operations ,the autos are great on motorways but take them into everyday shunting duties and they are useless ,or maybe i need training.We had a driver trainer arrive from the Daf main dealer to show us how to drive these autos ,i took him out in 1 of our units picked up a trailer and went to reverse onto a particularly tight loading bay where you have to reverse down a steep slope then jacknife onto the loading bay with inches to spare ,when the vehicle was in the jacknife position i showed him the problem of gently pressing the accelerator with no response ,then a little more pressure and nothing then a lurch backwards,his response was in front of an audience who all laughed with him ,“you dont know how to drive it” i replied by driving the vehicle back to the top of the hill and jumping out and saying "you show me how its done " red faced he declined and muttered that there was something wrong with the box ,so maybe you have found a new niche in life Billybigrig a driver trainer for Daf
Ohh meow
I use the term toddle rather than glam it up like some big clogs/wallet on a chain merchant would
A lot of the places I go to involve god awful access not helped when you’re wide too. Blindsides uphills and downhills I often have to struggle to get the trailer past without ripping it’s guts out on them. To the point of often having to lay blocks down and creep onto and off them sometimes. The trailer I “toddled” to Holland with barely gets on and off the ferry and I often have to have the linkspan angle tweaked to creep it up and on in reverse. I loaded under a gantry crane that involved a jack knife creep to get under it with barely room to straighten the unit up. When the 12 foot wide load was on it was a painfully slow creep out from under it. At 700 grand in value (and that’s not an expensive one)I don’t take chances with them
My job’s far from ■■■■ easy bay to bay RDC stuff. I cannot afford to [zb] up, I don’t bounce off anything. If I did I’d be unemployed PDQ
As for driver trainer ■■ Surely not needed as they know it all, all ready
Well maybe you should change your username to Billybullshit cos if youre telling me you can control a DAF auto in reverse with no problem in tight situations then thats what youre talking or maybe the 20 odd Dafs that we had were all defective in some way ,the Volvo i shift is a totally different box thats been designed by Volvo to work in conjunction with other Volvo parts which are well matched .Ive driven the ZF Auto in Daf,Iveco and MANs and the DAF in my opinion is definitely the worst but the other 2 arent much better.I had a MAN a couple of months ago and the problems were very similar to the Dafs .Fully freighted i could set off gently pressing the accelerator and it would skip through the gears ,then after stopping at traffic lights off again with the exactly same driving pattern it would hold in gear and rev round the clock not wanting to change up ,then it would stick in gear and not change down ,if i was running a fleet of lorries or i was an owner driver there`s no way i would buy an auto
Now now no need for that champ. I’m telling you what happened straight up. I’ve no idea what the common denominator is in your case but I’m telling you I had no problems. I’ve had that box in an MAN and thought it to be a worse version personally but managable. I’ve got no problem personally with them. Don’t know what to tell ya
Well after another 5 days with the I-shift I’m still no happier with it, its probably just Me, I counted the other day I’ve owned 9 Volvos from an F89 through to an FH 13 & consider Myself to be fairly good at what I do but after going from the 12 litre with the 13 speed Fuller in it to this 13 litre I am fairly dissapointed, if having to look at the dashboard to know what gear it wants to set off in is progress then they can poke it where the sun don’t shine.
Never had the probs you describe ramone & I had about 9mths on auto dafs. Sometimes with the Mercs Im driving now backing in somewhere where you are getting near jacknife with a heavy load they sometimes struggle but I think thats more to do with trying to shove the 2 none stearring rear axles on the unit. When I first started driving them 2003 fm i shift & iveco auto, backing under a heavy trailer which had been left low was sometimes dodgy either to little revs or not enough. These days though no probs instead of clutch control you get to learn throttle control, anyway whatever faults they have I like them, but Im just an old get with knees that don`t work so well
fly sheet:
Well after another 5 days with the I-shift I’m still no happier with it, its probably just Me, I counted the other day I’ve owned 9 Volvos from an F89 through to an FH 13 & consider Myself to be fairly good at what I do but after going from the 12 litre with the 13 speed Fuller in it to this 13 litre I am fairly dissapointed, if having to look at the dashboard to know what gear it wants to set off in is progress then they can poke it where the sun don’t shine.
Regards to all who have posted
Fly sheet
Coops is it actually the I shift in it ■■ Or is it one of the Americanised semi autos ■■ I had a Volvo when mine was in the shop with some god awfull automated eaton/fuller jobby in it. Had a big push button selector console ? If it’s that version it’s far from an I shift mate and you have my sympathies
fly sheet:
Well after another 5 days with the I-shift I’m still no happier with it, its probably just Me, I counted the other day I’ve owned 9 Volvos from an F89 through to an FH 13 & consider Myself to be fairly good at what I do but after going from the 12 litre with the 13 speed Fuller in it to this 13 litre I am fairly dissapointed, if having to look at the dashboard to know what gear it wants to set off in is progress then they can poke it where the sun don’t shine.
Regards to all who have posted
Fly sheet
It’s just the clash of cultures between the drivers and the licence holders.It’s a mystery why anyone (who’s got two arms and two legs and feet) would prefer any type of automated zb up from Allison to I shift when the good old fashioned fuller is still alive and kicking and it’s even more ironic when you’ve gone all that way to end up with the same type of issue that you’d expect to find here these days but not there.It’s a bit like going into a Youngs or Fullers pub and they say all the bitter has been discontinued but they can do Fosters.
Well its beyond me why anyone would want an auto but i suppose thats what makes the world go round … different opinions … i find them slow , unpredictable and at times absolutely useless ,but thats my opinion ,i`ll take a manual everytime
For me, fairly new to trucking (bit not driving) I initially thought autos were crap, compared to the 8/16 speed Dafs I’ve driven, never had the pleasure of much else. We got the ZF abomination in the Ivecos and Dafs (12 & 18 tonners) , all I can say is thankyou LEZ as those were palmed off on the south east branches and we got their manuals. The new XF autos are worse than the older XFs that have the ‘joystick’ especially when slow manouvering. My (57 plate) FH is almost spot on, it rarely needs over-riding (usually in stop-start traffic and coupling to a heavy trailer), I’ve got to agree that the driving style needs to adjust to throttle control rather than clutch control, but I’m a convert, as long as it’s an I-shift, and given that I’m not getting any younger, the missing clutch pedal is a bit easier on the knee.
, all I can say is thankyou LEZ as those were palmed off on the south east branches and we got their manuals. The new XF autos are worse than the older XFs that have the ‘joystick’ especially when slow manouvering. My (57 plate) FH is almost spot on, it rarely needs over-riding (usually in stop-start traffic and coupling to a heavy trailer), I’ve got to agree that the driving style needs to adjust to throttle control rather than clutch control, but I’m a convert, as long as it’s an I-shift, and given that I’m not getting any younger, the missing clutch pedal is a bit easier on the knee.