I-shifts & other auto box attrocities

[juddian]

Carryfast:

newmercman:

Which is when I tell them put in two for sale adverts one for a converted manual Jag and one for an auto and see which one sells first and for more and then ask yourself ‘why’.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=89371&start=270#p1281940

That’s possibly the case with Jags, which you can’t give away once they get to about 5 years old *, apart from the posh frocked Mondeo that is the X type.

Try to sell a manual Mercedes especially one that has a proper engine.

Mind you the cars in question do benefit from proper torque converter autos, i can’t see any proper MB (not A class or Smart) or Jaguar buyers opting for satans version of an automated manual hell box anytime soon, high performance yet smooth wafting is what good cars are all about.

Note that proper cars with real auto boxes are all still RWD, i can’t think of one instance of a rear driven car being fitted with an automated manual box, its FWD (why do people put themselves through this) shopping trolleys that get the gearbox from hell…not on my shopping list at any time.

*i like proper Jags, i’d love a XJR, but the complication of the things and the lack of aftermarket back up, both parts and expertise, has always kept me away.

[geoffthecrowtaylor]

Juddian just spoke to one of ny mates in UK he s driving for Hindles at Farnworth near Bolton a new DAF with auto and says so far no problems with it . On the subject of Jags our Tony has an S type in Holland and wants to get rid of it and as you say it s not worth any thing another mate in UK has a C class Merc bought new and now with only 30,000 odd miles on the clock is giving some problems makes me wish i d kept me 3 litre Westminster manual plus overdrive plus lousy mpg but like the Mk2 Zephyrs and Zodiacs good motors ,hindsight eh.regards Crow.

[gtpaul]

The CROWS old westminster, many miles, many holidays…

[gtpaul]

gtpaul:
The CROWS old westminster, many miles, many holidays…

[juddian]

geoffthecrowtaylor:
J 3 litre Westminster manual plus overdrive plus lousy mpg but like the Mk2 Zephyrs and Zodiacs good motors ,hindsight eh.regards Crow.

Overdrive, wasn’t that the business…last car i owned so fitted was my 93 Volvo 940 estate with the good old VW LT van 6 pot turboDiesel, still running too and not a speck of rust to be seen, should never have sold it.

I loved Westminsters, banger raced a few in my idiotic youth, and Zodiacs and Rover P4’s…and yes i’m thoroughly ashamed of meself but at least the old girls went out in glory instead of quietly being towed off to the scrappy.

I used to look after, including lots of welding, a lovely battleship grey Westmister for an old Polish chap now long gone, who happened to be the father of my lovely next door neighbour Maria, back in the old days when the borders were closed he would take a trip back to the home country in that old car, without fail on every trip all 4 windows would be ‘kaput’ at the borders unable to be opened…on return the door skins would come off and dozens of bottles of carfully wrapped, God above knows what proof, Polish Vodka would emerge from within, he got me as ■■■■■■ as a parrot one night on the stuff when i returned his car after some work, got me in a right state.

My favourite personal car of previous age?, '69 Ventora, which to those not old enough to know was the FD VIctor with the 3.3 litre Cresta engine, manual with overdrive.

Memorable for its engines tractability, would pull without a murmer or hiccup in OD top from 10 mph through to 120.

Back to auto trucks.

Been using a manual CF460 until latter half of this week, it pulls like a train, instant reverse selection and infinite manoeuvering control so i can at least try to give the impression of a pro at customers premises…
Latter half of the week an otherwise identical but auto CF460, its not until you drive one after the other that the sheer frustration with the slow ponderous action of the box really shows, ruins this otherwise highly underrated little motor, however a far better installation in DAF than in the dreadful MAN and Iveco chassis IMO.

To be fair they don’t seem to go wrong much, and i can see why they are becoming so popular with operators, if some drivers took a bit more pride in their profession these boxes wouldn’t have been needed, and a lot of the idiots we currently have to suffer on the road (and cheapened the cause) possibly wouldn’t have come into the game or lasted the course once they found that lorry driving involved a bit of nous and work.

Its been such an interesting thread this, good bit of leg pulling banter without the personal insults that ruined the Gardner thread for me.

[kitbuilder123]

Just a quick comment on how ridiculously over complicated trucks have become, during the week we tried to turn on the pto function in a Man tgx automatic box and we couldnt do it because the electric window switches in the drivers door, the drivers door module, was faulty. What chance have you when window switches affect the gearbox? Its ridiculous

[carryfast]

Juddian:

Carryfast:

newmercman:

Which is when I tell them put in two for sale adverts one for a converted manual Jag and one for an auto and see which one sells first and for more and then ask yourself ‘why’.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=89371&start=270#p1281940

That’s possibly the case with Jags, which you can’t give away once they get to about 5 years old *, apart from the posh frocked Mondeo that is the X type.

Try to sell a manual Mercedes especially one that has a proper engine.

Mind you the cars in question do benefit from proper torque converter autos,

*i like proper Jags, i’d love a XJR, but the complication of the things and the lack of aftermarket back up, both parts and expertise, has always kept me away.

No ‘proper Jags’ have manual boxes not autos .Unless you want a slow Jag.

youtube.com/watch?v=_830WtUX … ure=relmfu

[juddian]

kitbuilder123:
Just a quick comment on how ridiculously over complicated trucks have become, during the week we tried to turn on the pto function in a Man tgx automatic box and we couldnt do it because the electric window switches in the drivers door, the drivers door module, was faulty. What chance have you when window switches affect the gearbox? Its ridiculous

VW input? ours have spent far too much time at the workshops, probably the very last vehicle i would own, can scarcely believe they have the same badge as those tough simple and durable machines from not so many years ago that bore the name proudly.

I don’t like electrical PTO control, complicates stuff for no good reason, we never had a moments problem with air shifters, especially when linked to parking brake release for safety.

Still, when did simple ever keep main dealer workshops in lucractive ha ha can’t use anyone but us yah boo ■■■■■ business.
Just a pity that operators got hoodwinked into buying into this rubbish.

[bassman]

Hi, All,
There’s a lot of things in the last few threads I agree with. C/F it would be nice if the boss asked what we would like to drive, that much i agree with you , BUT, when did mr shell and Mr. BP and Mr. Stobart start asking a driver what they wanted. To them we are like the trucks , a tool, some good some not so.
Mr Volvo and Mr. DAF didn’t ask a driver what he thought he should have, ( true they may have done a lot of market research, but profits will win ).
As NMM said and I did earlier on for a driver its what is best for what he’s doing and where he’s doing it, Horses for courses.
As also mentioned there has been some nightmare auto- boxes out there but things in the last two or three years have improved immensely
As stated the auto is a great leveller and there isn’t ,or doesn’t seem to be the sense of proffessionalism about today . People come into transport and they don’t have to do /put up with what I suspect the majority on this thread has, they want to come and go as quick as possible with the least input as possible, pride doesn.t come in to it.
But having said that how many fleets have trucks with 18 speed fullers, I’ve just done 45 years in transport and I’ve never driven one and I don’t feel any the the worse for it. I have had a dabble at most other gearboxs, but not the 18 speed.
To me the crux of the matter is if I applied for a driving job what I would want to know is the money and conditions not are the trucks manual or auto.
If I was an O/D I wouldn’t touch an auto, I’d want a truck I could get home myself ,not hung on a wrecker. Rant Over,

Cheers Bassman

[newmercman]

Bassman:
But having said that how many fleets have trucks with 18 speed fullers, I’ve just done 45 years in transport and I’ve never driven one and I don’t feel any the the worse for it. I have had a dabble at most other gearboxs, but not the 18 speed.
To me the crux of the matter is if I applied for a driving job what I would want to know is the money and conditions not are the trucks manual or auto.
If I was an O/D I wouldn’t touch an auto, I’d want a truck I could get home myself ,not hung on a wrecker. Rant Over,

Cheers Bassman

The thing that Carryfast has with the 18spd, is what I call Top Trump Syndrome, he likes to have the biggest, most powerful equipment, which is why he compares 180 Gardners to 350 ■■■■■■■ on the Gardner thread and now he’s introduced V12 Rolls engines into the V8 Scania thread

The 18spd is a total waste of time and money in anything less than a heavy haul operation

I have one in my truck, never have to split gears in the bottom half of the box, unless I’m creeping along on tick over in traffic (when I would swap it for an autoshift in a heartbeat ) I do go from 1lo to 2hi and then 4lo, but a 1st, 2nd, 4th progression in a 13spd would achieve the same thing I think (not too sure) that the 18spd has a higher torque rating than the 13spd, which was why it was standard behind the big CAT engines

The last part of your post, bang on the money driver

[geoffthecrowtaylor]

Just have ashufty at that Westminster , what a lovely motor in the days when we could build cars what on earth went wrong, no BLMC and what followed, in the words of that singer, no not Rootes group we were simply the best and as my face is telling me you can t turn back the clock, I think i ll have a whisky blended of course to drown my sorrows can t afford Bollinger Saviem, every body take special care , regards Crow.

[carryfast]

newmercman:

Bassman:
But having said that how many fleets have trucks with 18 speed fullers, I’ve just done 45 years in transport and I’ve never driven one and I don’t feel any the the worse for it. I have had a dabble at most other gearboxs, but not the 18 speed.
To me the crux of the matter is if I applied for a driving job what I would want to know is the money and conditions not are the trucks manual or auto.
If I was an O/D I wouldn’t touch an auto, I’d want a truck I could get home myself ,not hung on a wrecker. Rant Over,

Cheers Bassman

The thing that Carryfast has with the 18spd, is what I call Top Trump Syndrome, he likes to have the biggest, most powerful equipment, which is why he compares 180 Gardners to 350 ■■■■■■■ on the Gardner thread and now he’s introduced V12 Rolls engines into the V8 Scania thread

The 18spd is a total waste of time and money in anything less than a heavy haul operation

I have one in my truck, never have to split gears in the bottom half of the box, unless I’m creeping along on tick over in traffic (when I would swap it for an autoshift in a heartbeat ) I do go from 1lo to 2hi and then 4lo, but a 1st, 2nd, 4th progression in a 13spd would achieve the same thing I think (not too sure) that the 18spd has a higher torque rating than the 13spd, which was why it was standard behind the big CAT engines

The last part of your post, bang on the money driver

I thought I’d provided a clear explanation as to why I’d put that reference to the Commander in that topic,just as I’ve sometimes used it in other similar comparisons between the euro/scandinavian/british truck manufacturing cababilities,as an example to show the issues which applied during that make for break time for the Brit manufacturers.In just the same way that I’ve used the comparison of customers ordering Gardners at the time when those 350 ■■■■■■■ powered trucks should have been the order of the day.

The 18 speed Fuller was made and is probably specced by customers on the simple engineering logic,which I can understand,of allowing plenty of close ratios all the way up the box and therefore more fuel efficient progress such as in the situation of a fully freighted truck,even at US type gross weights,starting off on an incline in addition to that is the different weight limits throughout North America,including doubles operations etc etc and by turning them out in large quantities keeps the price down on the basis of economies of scale and it does no harm to have something that’s overspecced for the job rather than under.

The last sentence of that previous post and your agreement,seems to contain the obvious contradiction,that if autos are going to be put into large scale use,by the fleets,to suit the modern day dodgy driver employment issue,then it’s obvious that the supply of manual box spec trucks will become a lot less for that owner driver market.Therefore the issue of residual values needs to be added to the one of complication and the maintenance within those fleets if they take the advice to order autos in addition to upsetting drivers like fly sheet .

[geoffthecrowtaylor]

CF why on earth do you need 18 ratios 13 or 16 was more than enough every time you change gear you re going thru. rev band again, if you ve got enough HPyou don t need em all. Crow.

[carryfast]

geoffthecrowtaylor:
CF why on earth do you need 18 ratios 13 or 16 was more than enough every time you change gear you re going thru. rev band again, if you ve got enough HPyou don t need em all. Crow.

No one’s saying don’t skip some here and there but the closer the ratios the easier it is to not have to run the thing as far up the rev range before upshifting it to the next gear.Which means using more of the torque to move the truck than the power which saves fuel.

[geoffthecrowtaylor]

CF i m giving up now i m away down to the kitchen to pour myself a large one whilst contemplating the veracity of what you ve just said, as an advocate of mega HP motors you not me it defeats the object when your arm is moving like a fiddlers elbow to keep the thing rolling at what ever speed you ve decided is the optimum. Crow.

[kr79]

The 13 speed fuller is more than adequate unless you are pulling super heavy weights. After my little jaunt across the pond the thing you see with the average American or Canadian truck driver is they seem to think they have to use every single gear. NMM will confirm it seems to take them half a dozen gearchanges to get across the lights burning more fuel than is needed making noise and going no where.

[billybigrig]

Enjoy you’re drink Crow and don’t worry about it. Remember…

[kitbuilder123]

Juddian:

kitbuilder123:
Just a quick comment on how ridiculously over complicated trucks have become, during the week we tried to turn on the pto function in a Man tgx automatic box and we couldnt do it because the electric window switches in the drivers door, the drivers door module, was faulty. What chance have you when window switches affect the gearbox? Its ridiculous

VW input? ours have spent far too much time at the workshops, probably the very last vehicle i would own, can scarcely believe they have the same badge as those tough simple and durable machines from not so many years ago that bore the name proudly.

I don’t like electrical PTO control, complicates stuff for no good reason, we never had a moments problem with air shifters, especially when linked to parking brake release for safety.

Still, when did simple ever keep main dealer workshops in lucractive ha ha can’t use anyone but us yah boo ■■■■■ business.
Just a pity that operators got hoodwinked into buying into this rubbish.

I agree on the electric pto control, air switch linked through the hand brake is definitely better but because it’s auto with no clutch pedal, it needs electrics to tell it to engage the clutch and when to release it again

[carryfast]

kr79:
The 13 speed fuller is more than adequate unless you are pulling super heavy weights. After my little jaunt across the pond the thing you see with the average American or Canadian truck driver is they seem to think they have to use every single gear. NMM will confirm it seems to take them half a dozen gearchanges to get across the lights burning more fuel than is needed making noise and going no where.

Like this you mean .

youtube.com/watch?v=j0n9_E0HBSY

It’s actually saving the guvnor money in fuel costs not burning it.

[carryfast]

geoffthecrowtaylor:
CF i m giving up now as an advocate of mega HP motors you not me it defeats the object when your arm is moving like a fiddlers elbow to keep the thing rolling at what ever speed you ve decided is the optimum. Crow.

High horsepower usually means high torque which is the bit that matters and the way to access that is to make the upshifts as soon as possible but there’s no way of doing that by upshifting later by using less gears instead of earlier using more.