How Many More Drivers to Die or Seriously Injured

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
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Ramps are there on today’s lorries to prevent ripping the wings off if you can’t manage to use the adjustable air suspension system properly.

In the old days they were there to prevent damage by drivers that didn’t follow the correct procedure and make sure the 5th wheel and rubbing plate were somewhat level.

They were never designed to be used as a method of lifting or dropping a trailer, if they were then trailer legs would not be infinitely adjustable by using gears and a winding handle, they would have an up and a down position only.

82

Also CF your comment regarding…

Carryfast:
Firstly all the forces you’ve referred to are obviously catered for at the design stage.

You’ve obviosly never pulled a Schmitz CargoBull euro/taught liner then because those things are designed with one goal in mind, to be as light as possible, (less weight of the trailer empty means greater cargo weight loaded = profit) those bloody things are flimsy as hell.

You ask anyone that’s gone under a loaded one how much front end sag of the trailer you have to deal with, you honestly would not get under it on steel without having to slow wind the legs a fair bit first, if you tried ramming it up the ramps like you seem to think it should still be done you will put serious stresses on the trailer assuming of course that you didn’t stove in the headboard first.

Your way “worked” (albeit unsympathetically to the equipment involved) when things were built with one thing in mind… Strength.

Our way “works” because things have evolved (for better or worse is not the discussion point here) and we’ve adapted sympathetically and accordingly.

And talking of discussion point, the discussion was about whether automatically activated trailer brakes (or at the very least the valve button on the headboard) should now be an industry standard, not how you used to butcher the job to save a bit of back ache in your Atkinson Borderer.

But either way the point to all of this is simple, if you couple up using the “go under lowered and then lift” method and do so correctly you will never miss the pin or mis-hitch, and if you apply the park brake it will never roll forwards or backwards no matter what method you use.

People have said their methods so I will add mine…

  • Back up to trailer and stop about a foot short of it.
  • check tacho is on other work mode.
  • Apply hand/park brake and switch off engine.
  • Get out and walk down the offside of the trailer visually checking for obvious bits hanging off or out or broken and check tyres/wheels.
  • Walk round the back and look in the back if it’s not sealed just checking that the office bods actually gave me the right load/trailer (a lot of places I’ve worked leave the paperwork in the back so obviously retrieve that as well)
  • Walk back up the nearside and check/pull the park brake as I go past (most Schmitz, SDC’s & Lawrence Davids I’ve used have these on the nearside near the rear) and also check the shunt button while I’m there, check tyres/wheels on this side.
  • If it’s a reefer check fridge fuel tank level, and test/check settings/fault codes.
  • A quick visual check of the height difference (if any) between the trailer and the 5th wheel plate.
  • Jump back in start her up, lights and Hazards on (if they weren’t already on) grab the remote and dump the air.
  • Back up until I get to the point that I know the fifth wheel is now fully under the trailer by seeing where the trailer is and knowing where and how far I need to go, stop and lift the rear.
  • Once the air has lifted my arse end and the trailer with it proceed backwards until you hear the undisputable “clunk, twang” of the pin and fifth wheel engaging and locking.
  • Tug test. (I always tug twice, not saying it’s right or wrong or necessary/unnecessary, it’s just what I’ve always done)
  • Hand/park brake on, out of gear, engine off, exit cab.
  • Visual check of the fifth wheel and check the handle is seated right and apply dog clip if fitted.
  • I should at this point get under and check the jaws visually but, I’ll be honest here, I don’t (I do intend to start implementing that though)
  • Climb up on catwalk and attach lines.
  • Wind up legs ever so effortlessly (unless a numpty has been slam hitching it and [zb]ed up the legs)
  • Walk around checking all lights, release the trailer brake and affix number plate.
  • Go back to the cab hit the level/ride height button on your remote.
  • Wedge something (I have an old wooden hammer handle) on the brake pedal and check all brake lights (unless you’re a fancy pants with the keyfob light test thingy)
  • Adjust height indicator to new trailer if different from the previous.
  • Drive 'er like you stole 'er in a safe and legal and fuel efficient manner…

A quick explanation of the parts I highlighted in orange…
When I did a stint working nights as a shunter I saw a few times a driver hook up to a trailer, apply the suzies wind the legs up only then to notice they had a flat tyre or broken light cluster or even been given the wrong load and or trailer, then whinge and moan because they had to drop the trailer again, my highlighted part means I save a load of time and effort if something is bad enough that I’d have otherwise had to disconnect and grab another trailer.

Trust me it took about ten times longer to read that than actually to do it, all in all it probably took me about a minute longer to complete my routine than it would a “slam dunker” to do his (assuming he was as vigilant in his walkaround checks too)

Hand on heart if you were an employer with hundreds of thousands invested in the equipment would you prefer CF’s method or mine?

83

newmercman:
Ramps are there on today’s lorries to prevent ripping the wings off if you can’t manage to use the adjustable air suspension system properly.

In the old days they were there to prevent damage by drivers that didn’t follow the correct procedure and make sure the 5th wheel and rubbing plate are somewhat level .

They were never designed to be used as a method of lifting or dropping a trailer, if they were then trailer legs would not be infinitely adjustable by using gears and a winding handle, they would have an up and a down position only.

No harm in posting this again.What would they know about coupling trailers.

youtube.com/watch?v=CfEdLsJtW_s 2.42 -

I think that’s clear enough in making the point that the ‘ramps’ in whatever form are there to ‘lift’ the trailer onto the fifth wheel.It also clearly says why you should never put a low unit under a high trailer then lift it because of the danger of fouling the pin.Which I thought was the argument here between us.

84

Reef:
Also CF your comment regarding…

Carryfast:
Firstly all the forces you’ve referred to are obviously catered for at the design stage.

You’ve obviosly never pulled a Schmitz CargoBull euro/taught liner then because those things are designed with one goal in mind, to be as light as possible, (less weight of the trailer empty means greater cargo weight loaded = profit) those bloody things are flimsy as hell.

You ask anyone that’s gone under a loaded one how much front end sag of the trailer you have to deal with, you honestly would not get under it on steel without having to slow wind the legs a fair bit first, if you tried ramming it up the ramps like you seem to think it should still be done you will put serious stresses on the trailer assuming of course that you didn’t stove in the headboard first.

Your way “worked” (albeit unsympathetically to the equipment involved) when things were built with one thing in mind… Strength.

Hand on heart if you were an employer with hundreds of thousands invested in the equipment would you prefer CF’s method or mine?

I’d suggest that those in question,including P and O,should look and learn from the video I’ve posted which confirms the way that I was taught that the ‘ramps’ are supposed to ‘lift’ the trailer onto the fifth wheel to ensure that the pin enters the jaws properly.If anyone wants to wreck the fifth wheel let alone risk a mis couple and lose a trailer or over shoot the pin or possibly for whatever reason catch the driver between a run away trailer and the unit go ahead follow the others advice. :unamused:

As for a supposedly sagging weak trailer.Exactly what’s the difference between lifting the trailer with the ramps or with the fifth wheel when the forces imposed front to rear,between the plate and axles,are the same in either case.

85

The forces are not the same though are they, the weight may be the same, but lifting it gently by the air bags will not produce the same forces on both the trailer and the unit as hitting it and letting the ramps or 5th wheel pick it up in a split second.

Although it really doesn’t matter, of all the members of this forum that have read or commented on this thread, you (Carryfast) are the only one that disagrees with the lifting with the air suspension method, typical really as that is the same story as every thread you post on, you disagree with the 99% and continue to argue your point until the thread dies as everybody else becomes exasperated with you and your broken record comments.

86

newmercman:
The forces are not the same though are they, the weight may be the same, but lifting it gently by the air bags will not produce the same forces on both the trailer and the unit as hitting it and letting the ramps or 5th wheel pick it up in a split second.

Although it really doesn’t matter, of all the members of this forum that have read or commented on this thread, you (Carryfast) are the only one that disagrees with the lifting with the air suspension method,

Did you actually look at the video I posted ?.Which clearly shows the critical nature of the vertical alignment between the pin and fifth wheel jaws and why and how you ‘lift’ the trailer onto the fifth wheel,using the ‘ramps’,to make sure that the weight of the trailer is sitting on the table before the pin enters the jaws.It also shows why you shouldn’t put a low unit under a high trailer then lift it because of the risk of fouling the pin.

87

I did watch the video, it shows an American tractor unit hooking up to a trailer. As I’ve said before, the trucks here do not have a lift facility on the rear air suspension, only the ability to dump the air. They also do not have the deep pin settings that European trailers have and we also have crap mirrors fitted to trucks here making it almost impossible to see the back wheels of the unit, so judging how far under the trailer you are is difficult.

On top of that, there is a general belief here that a lorry is a dangerous machine that will kill you at the first opportunity and the stupid runs deep within the veins of 99% of truck drivers, in which case you would instruct drivers couple up in the way they describe in the video.

But it’s an apples to oranges comparison, they have shorter pin settings, no lift facility and most of them are as silly as a cart load of monkeys.

88

newmercman:
I did watch the video, it shows an American tractor unit hooking up to a trailer. As I’ve said before, the trucks here do not have a lift facility on the rear air suspension, only the ability to dump the air. They also do not have the deep pin settings that European trailers have and we also have crap mirrors fitted to trucks here making it almost impossible to see the back wheels of the unit, so judging how far under the trailer you are is difficult.

On top of that, there is a general belief here that a lorry is a dangerous machine that will kill you at the first opportunity and the stupid runs deep within the veins of 99% of truck drivers, in which case you would instruct drivers couple up in the way they describe in the video.

But it’s an apples to oranges comparison, they have shorter pin settings, no lift facility and most of them are as silly as a cart load of monkeys.

How do you explain the instruction given at 3.18-3.27 ?.Which obviously applies the same here or there in either case regardless.

It also shows that lifting the trailer with the ramps isn’t and never was a case of slamming it into the thing at silly speeds and as such was/is no less mechanically sympathetic as the dodgy idea of going under low and then lifting it using the air.

So let’s get this right.They rightly instruct trailers to be coupled up in the old school way just as I’ve described.While drivers here are told to do the opposite.Then you ask the question why are we seeing safety issues and problems here that we didn’t see before.

Bearing in mind that I’m sure that the instruction given in the video would apply regardless of pin depth or air suspension lift capability.While also making it quite clear that the ramps/forks are there for correctly lifting trailers onto the fifth wheel from the start of the coupling process,regardless of which side of the Atlantic it is.While I’d call getting it wrong,by using the go under low and lift method,with the predictable result of pin fouling,by an equally predictable small misjudgement,inevitable not stupid.But doing that in trying to avoid using the ramps/forks for the job they are designed for and thereby predictably fouling the pin is the definition of stupid.

89

You think that the coupling up problems are specific to Europe? I beg to differ, there are tons of trucks over here with the cab extender fairings smashed to smithereens where drivers have missed the pin.

It doesn’t matter which side of the Atlantic you are on, if you don’t pay attention whilst hooking up to a trailer it can end in tears, no matter which method you use.

My way of doing it with the air suspension as I described earlier is without any doubt a safe and mechanically sympathetic method of doing it. If the steps I described are followed there is no way anything could go wrong, but that’s the problem, as soon as you involve humans in any process there’s the possibility of a mistake being made, no matter which method you use, let’s face it, you are only joining two objects together, you only have to ensure one thing happens to ensure that it’s a successful operation and that is to engage the jaws of the 5th wheel around the kingpin, yet it still goes horribly wrong in some cases. It may be simple human error, or incredible stupidity, but there’s no known cure for that.

90

CF, you seem to have missed the point that many tractors dont have ramps anymore. My own unit has the fifth wheel set very low,its only a few cms above the tops of the tyres (open rear arches) and couples to long pin trailers so theres less than 20cm between trailer and rear of cab, theres no smashed plastics , not even a scratch on the unit. All i do is level the rear susp so the fifth wheel is just a fraction above the pin plate and slide under until the pin engages.
This whole thread has dissected the simple process of coupling up and made a simple few steps into something approaching rocket science… :confused:

91

newmercman:
You think that the coupling up problems are specific to Europe? I beg to differ, there are tons of trucks over here with the cab extender fairings smashed to smithereens where drivers have missed the pin.

It doesn’t matter which side of the Atlantic you are on, if you don’t pay attention whilst hooking up to a trailer it can end in tears, no matter which method you use.

My way of doing it with the air suspension as I described earlier is without any doubt a safe and mechanically sympathetic method of doing it. If the steps I described are followed there is no way anything could go wrong, but that’s the problem, as soon as you involve humans in any process there’s the possibility of a mistake being made, no matter which method you use, let’s face it, you are only joining two objects together, you only have to ensure one thing happens to ensure that it’s a successful operation and that is to engage the jaws of the 5th wheel around the kingpin, yet it still goes horribly wrong in some cases. It may be simple human error, or incredible stupidity, but there’s no known cure for that.

How can anyone possibly miss the pin if the trailer plate is sitting lower than the fifth wheel jaws at the start of the process ?.

While the go under low and lift method obviously creates both types of hazards in the form of drivers either over shooting the pin position or fouling it by getting the lifting point wrong. :bulb:

IE in all cases going under high and letting the ramps/forks do the job they are there for can only possibly be safer and as the vid shows no reason to think is any less mechanically sympathetic.While I’d guess the change in methods old school v new logically in large part answers your question regarding an increase in coupling safety issues.

On that note I’d certainly feel more vulnerable to potential mis coupling issues if I had to use the seeming modern go under low and lift method v the old school method I know and trust shown in the video.While go under low and lift will obviously just add to the issues of drivers missing the pin certainly not help. :bulb:

92

Many years ago while working in the Middle East,one of our drivers(European)rammed a trailer so hard in attempt to connect that he sheared the pin clean off.

93

Nothing like hearing it from the horses mouth, I’ve tweeted four trailer manufacturers and Dennison has got back to me already…

(apparently my time settings on Twitter are an hour out)

So please continue digging yourself into a hole CF, I’ll post the other replies if and when they come in.

94

Nice one Reef!

You know it won’t make any difference though, his mind is made up that it’s wrong and he’s seen a video of a coupling procedure on YouTube that proves him correct, it doesn’t matter that it’s a US truck without a raise facility on its suspension, or that they’re stuck in the dark ages in North America as I know only too well from actual real life experience for the past nine years.

None of that matters, Carryfast is right and everybody else is wrong, it’s the way it always is.

95

newmercman:
Nice one Reef!

You know it won’t make any difference though, his mind is made up that it’s wrong and he’s seen a video of a coupling procedure on YouTube that proves him correct, it doesn’t matter that it’s a US truck without a raise facility on its suspension, or that they’re stuck in the dark ages in North America as I know only too well from actual real life experience for the past nine years.

None of that matters, Carryfast is right and everybody else is wrong, it’s the way it always is.

If I’ve read it right you drive a North American truck and you also use the go under low and lift method ?.IE this isn’t an American v Euro method issue.Or a question of whether I’m right or wrong because I don’t even need to drive a truck.

It’s just a question of the potential safety issues,involved in coupling a trailer using a type of procedure that introduces obvious and known risks regarding potential mis couples,that don’t exist using the method shown in which the ramps are used for the job they are designed for.All seemingly based on the solution to a non existent mechanical sympathy issue.Regardless which side of the Atlantic it happens to be.

96

Edit to add.Instruction to Brit test coupling standards using a Brit truck.

youtube.com/watch?v=1GhULtaJNVY 9.44-11.30

Nothing there about going under low and lift,as opposed to using the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer.Which leaves the question why the difference in much of the general TNUK consensus v my views. :confused:

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Anybody can post a how to video on YouTube, but that doesn’t make it the right way to do it.

There’s this thing they call evolution, it means that sometimes there’s a newer and more efficient method of performing a task.

I can, if I want to, turn up the volume on my TV using the volume buttons on the TV itself, or I can use the remote control.

99

Not this again CF? :open_mouth:

FFS will someone take a truck around to him and show him how much more sensible it is to use the suspension and lift the trailer…

100

newmercman:
Anybody can post a how to video on YouTube, but that doesn’t make it the right way to do it.

To be fair it’s a bit more than just ‘a’ how to ‘video’.

youtube.com/watch?v=AN2U9x-rjw0 7.18-7.40

youtube.com/watch?v=9wblJVYB1l0 1.28-2.07