How Many More Drivers to Die or Seriously Injured

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
41

newmercman:
In my years of driving I’ve never had any near misses while hooking up, not even with older trailers without spring brakes that often needed chasing around the yard to get hooked up properly. I don’t get it? How has it become so dangerous? You back your unit under the trailer, hear and feel the 5th wheel jaws engage, set parking brake, get out, attach suzies, wind legs up, check tyres, lights, number plate, seal etc and away you go, I can’t see at which point in this process you’re at risk of death or serious injury.

I get what you’re saying, and I don’t completely disagree, I’d be a hypocrite if I did because I did it the exact same way when I started out, but I don’t think people should be knocked for wishing to include an extra safety procedure into their routine either.

At the end of the day what does applying the park brake (if you don’t have an auto engage system) actually cost you the driver? Weigh that up with what not applying it could potentially cost you and I know what I’d rather do tbh.

It’s a bit like saying “I never wore a seat belt for 20+ yrs and never flew through a windscreen, waste of my time and effort putting one on if you ask me” :wink:

newmercman:
hear and feel the 5th wheel jaws engage,

Right here unfortunately is where it can all go wrong, the assumption that it’s engaged correctly like it has an umpteenth thousand times before, it only takes a mis-hitch once to kill you or someone else, and the park brake on the unit is not going to do much to help you if the kingpin was actually sat on top of the jaws and then slips off due to the jolt of the trailer brakes releasing when you connect the red line.

Terry T:
Whatever safety measures you put in place you can guarantee an idiot will find a way to make it dangerous again.

That is the sad yet accurate truth.

I’m not a raging H&S nut but I am a fully paid up member of the self preservation society, I have to be, the Wife would kill me if I died and left her with all the bills :laughing:

42

Reef:

newmercman:
I

I

newmercman:
hear and feel the 5th wheel jaws engage,

Right here unfortunately is where it can all go wrong, the assumption that it’s engaged correctly like it has an umpteenth thousand times before, it only takes a mis-hitch once to kill you or someone else, and the park brake on the unit is not going to do much to help you if the kingpin was actually sat on top of the jaws and then slips off due to the jolt of the trailer brakes releasing when you connect the red line.

Terry T:

Thats a fair point, and the one reason i always shine a torch up the fifth wheel’s bum to actually see those jaws locked in place, shining a torch up its bum is a good practice due to the thankfully rare occasion when the jaws can be triggered and close shut but the king pin is sitting on the jaws, not locked inside.

It’s almost impossible for the trailer to jump off even if this happens during a coupling procedure, one of my old workmates managed to travel from severn bridge area empty to that london before the trailer finally bounced off on the embankment near the houses of ill repute, none of us could believe this could happen (the jaw thing) but he proved it can, and it happened to me just a few months later picking up a loaded trailer which was left on a slant (both York BIgD fifth wheels, wonder if they were prone to it?), luckily something didn’t sound right so i dragged it onto level ground and had a poke nose, sure enough there it is sitting on the jaws, since that day i’ve shone a torch up its bum.

43

Reef, I agree, adding extra safety measures is a good idea, in theory at least, but then there’s always the danger of having so many steps in a procedure that something gets left out. If the step that gets overlooked is a big one, it could end in tears.

You mention the pin sitting on top of the jaws, but I find that to be negligence, there is no excuse for it, if you back under a trailer and cannot get the 5th wheel to hit the rubbing plate (by use of the air suspension) and feel the resistance, then you should get out and look, if the rubbing plate and 5th wheel have a gap between them, you just wind the legs up until there’s contact and then back under until the jaws engage.

My truck (and every truck in North America) doesn’t have a lift facility on the air suspension, so this is something I often have to do, this mob are stuck in the dark ages and for some reason they like to wind the legs down on the low gear and crank away until the trailer is clear of the 5th wheel, rather than just winding them down and dumping the air to get out without a fuss.

44

In 25 years of driving ive never applied the trailer brake and in our yard in three languages theres big signs saying ‘DO NOT APPLY TRAILER BRAKE’. Ram the pin home, tug test,tractor parking brake on, connect air lines, wind legs up, job done…

45

Split coupling is the main problem.

46

eagerbeaver:
Split coupling is the main problem.

What do you do when you’ve got a short-ratcheted 5th wheel and a bulging fridge unit leaving a coupled gap of less than a foot though?

At Tescos they might have these sliding 5th wheel button - but where else do they have that where close-coupled fridge trailers are involved?

47

AndrewG:
In 25 years of driving ive never applied the trailer brake and in our yard in three languages theres big signs saying ‘DO NOT APPLY TRAILER BRAKE’. Ram the pin home, tug test,tractor parking brake on, connect air lines, wind legs up, job done…

I see a lot less blue shunt buttons on trailers now than I did just 5 years ago. I guess if a trailer doesn’t have a blue button - there’s no need to apply the red brake, because it applies itself when you disconnect the red line.

Having a trailer lunge forward when you connect the red line - isn’t something you’d expect to happen with the handbrake on in the cab, and the engine switched off either.
It would still take a blue button pushed in somewhere to “complete” if you like. That’s good though, as it adds to safety. :slight_smile:

48

Winseer:
What do you do when you’ve got a short-ratcheted 5th wheel and a bulging fridge unit?

Is this a euphemism :smiley: ?

Suppose the age old pre Saturday night advice of " if you can’t be good, be careful" applies

49

Reef:

newmercman:
hear and feel the 5th wheel jaws engage,

Right here unfortunately is where it can all go wrong, the assumption that it’s engaged correctly like it has an umpteenth thousand times before, it only takes a mis-hitch once to kill you or someone else, and the park brake on the unit is not going to do much to help you if the kingpin was actually sat on top of the jaws and then slips off due to the jolt of the trailer brakes releasing when you connect the red line.

It’s all going wrong in that regard because of the stupid idea of messing about with the unit air suspension by going under a high trailer with a low unit then hoping it’s lifted in time without fouling the pin.All to save a bit of grease getting shifted during coupling. :unamused: When the correct idea was/is to go under a low trailer,with a normal running height unit and use the ramps or the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer off its legs right from the start.Bearing in mind that you didn’t have any other option but that with steel suspension anyway and there’s no reason why that procedure should be any different with air especially when it’s the inherently safer option.

50

Carryfast:

Reef:

newmercman:
hear and feel the 5th wheel jaws engage,

Right here unfortunately is where it can all go wrong, the assumption that it’s engaged correctly like it has an umpteenth thousand times before, it only takes a mis-hitch once to kill you or someone else, and the park brake on the unit is not going to do much to help you if the kingpin was actually sat on top of the jaws and then slips off due to the jolt of the trailer brakes releasing when you connect the red line.

It’s all going wrong in that regard because of the stupid idea of messing about with the unit air suspension by going under a high trailer with a low unit then hoping it’s lifted in time without fouling the pin.All to save a bit of grease getting shifted during coupling. :unamused: When the correct idea was/is to go under a low trailer,with a normal running height unit and use the ramps or the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer off its legs right from the start.Bearing in mind that you didn’t have any other option but that with steel suspension anyway and there’s no reason why that procedure should be any different with air especially when it’s the inherently safer option.

I disagree to a point, I always “go under low and lift” and by using a combination of my eyes and brain I have never once had an issue doing it that way, but saying that I am talking about curtainsiders, fridges and flats and you’ll find the pins are a bit further back (deeper) than in your day cf giving you a lot more room to do this method (obviously i wouldn’t use this method on a powder tanker for example), and I’m sorry but at the end of the day if someone cannot judge how far under they are when attempting to couple up then they shouldn’t be sat in the hot seat in the first place.

51

Reef:

Carryfast:
It’s all going wrong in that regard because of the stupid idea of messing about with the unit air suspension by going under a high trailer with a low unit then hoping it’s lifted in time without fouling the pin.All to save a bit of grease getting shifted during coupling. :unamused: When the correct idea was/is to go under a low trailer,with a normal running height unit and use the ramps or the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer off its legs right from the start.Bearing in mind that you didn’t have any other option but that with steel suspension anyway and there’s no reason why that procedure should be any different with air especially when it’s the inherently safer option.

I disagree to a point, I always “go under low and lift” and by using a combination of my eyes and brain I have never once had an issue doing it that way, but saying that I am talking about curtainsiders, fridges and flats and you’ll find the pins are a bit further back (deeper) than in your day cf giving you a lot more room to do this method (obviously i wouldn’t use this method on a powder tanker for example), and I’m sorry but at the end of the day if someone cannot judge how far under they are when attempting to couple up then they shouldn’t be sat in the hot seat in the first place.

As you said yourself right there is where it can all go wrong.I’m not sure about the relevance of pin positions in all this but I do know that we had the old 40 foot trailers and the later 45 ft types which I’m guessing had more front over hang past the pin in the case of the latter.In all cases as I’ve said I used exactly the same method to couple both types and as I used in the case of steel suspension units.IE leaving the unit running height at normal and using the ramps etc on the unit to do the job that they were designed for.That being to lift the trailer off it’s legs from the start thereby making sure that the pin enters the jaws correctly.

With no need,to mess about trying to reset the relative heights between trailer and unit in the middle of the coupling process and thereby possibly getting it wrong,by mis judging the relative heights and/or fouling the pin in doing so.Thereby creating the conditions whereby the pin could then foreseeably over run the fifth wheel if trailer braking is lost when the lines are connected.

52

James the cat:

Winseer:
What do you do when you’ve got a short-ratcheted 5th wheel and a bulging fridge unit?

Is this a euphemism :smiley: ?

Suppose the age old pre Saturday night advice of " if you can’t be good, be careful" applies

Split Coupling is banned outright at Tescos. They have the sliding 5th wheel to facilitate coupling instead.
Other places don’t have the slider, but don’t ban split coupling.
So… unless you’re a 7 stone waif - you split couple. “Being Careful” is something I’d have to agree with, as performing an action that is banned in some places but allowed at others - cannot be described as a “good” thing to do - can it?

53

Franglais:

rigsby:
Last firm I was at , the fleet engineer modified all trailers so that when the red line was disconnected the trailer brakes came on and the suspension dropped . It was a requirement of the company we loaded from . Why can’t all trailers be built like that ?

Not sure about dropping of suspension being compulsory, but park brake coming on automatically has no dis-advantage that I can see.
(One possible problem with dropping of suspension with air line: loaded trailer, legs wound down, lines disconnected, the rear drops and puts a strain on the landing legs?)

On most trailers the service brakes apply if there’s air in the trailer tanks and you drop the red line this is in case of the trailer becoming detached from the unit whilst travelling. The spring parking brakes come on when you pull the park brake on the trailer or there’s no air in them.

The alternative is the pownall type parking brake design usually fitted to the trailer headboard. This is a safety improvement for coupling but it has a downside in that usually the system means if the trailer becomes detached it only gets the spring brakes applied when the red line snaps. This poses a runaway risk, as the spring brakes are much less effective than the service brakes.

Probably the biggest safety improvement would be if the unit park brake automatically applied every time either door was opened. Fairly straightforward top design in on modern trucks really.

54

^^

Nowhere near as common to see as it used to be when lorries didn’t have power steering, but if you cracked the door ajar to see a bit better then you’d bang your head when it all stops dead. :smiley:

55

Winseer:

eagerbeaver:
Split coupling is the main problem.

What do you do when you’ve got a short-ratcheted 5th wheel and a bulging fridge unit leaving a coupled gap of less than a foot though?

At Tescos they might have these sliding 5th wheel button - but where else do they have that where close-coupled fridge trailers are involved?

I have the fifth wheel set for very close coupling less than 20cm between air deflector and trailer (tilt) and being 15 stone have to split couple. I reverse up to the trailer so that the fifth wheel is at an angle against the plate of the trailer then get on the cat walk and connect the lines. drop the air then engage the pin. With the fifth wheel being where it is theres no chance of the trailer moving forward especially with the legs still being grounded. Perfectly safe way of coupling…

56

Carryfast:

Reef:

Carryfast:
It’s all going wrong in that regard because of the stupid idea of messing about with the unit air suspension by going under a high trailer with a low unit then hoping it’s lifted in time without fouling the pin.All to save a bit of grease getting shifted during coupling. :unamused: When the correct idea was/is to go under a low trailer,with a normal running height unit and use the ramps or the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer off its legs right from the start.Bearing in mind that you didn’t have any other option but that with steel suspension anyway and there’s no reason why that procedure should be any different with air especially when it’s the inherently safer option.

I disagree to a point, I always “go under low and lift” and by using a combination of my eyes and brain I have never once had an issue doing it that way, but saying that I am talking about curtainsiders, fridges and flats and you’ll find the pins are a bit further back (deeper) than in your day cf giving you a lot more room to do this method (obviously i wouldn’t use this method on a powder tanker for example), and I’m sorry but at the end of the day if someone cannot judge how far under they are when attempting to couple up then they shouldn’t be sat in the hot seat in the first place.

As you said yourself right there is where it can all go wrong.I’m not sure about the relevance of pin positions in all this but I do know that we had the old 40 foot trailers and the later 45 ft types which I’m guessing had more front over hang past the pin in the case of the latter.In all cases as I’ve said I used exactly the same method to couple both types and as I used in the case of steel suspension units.IE leaving the unit running height at normal and using the ramps etc on the unit to do the job that they were designed for.That being to lift the trailer off it’s legs from the start thereby making sure that the pin enters the jaws correctly.

With no need,to mess about trying to reset the relative heights between trailer and unit in the middle of the coupling process and thereby possibly getting it wrong,by mis judging the relative heights and/or fouling the pin in doing so.Thereby creating the conditions whereby the pin could then foreseeably over run the fifth wheel if trailer braking is lost when the lines are connected.

The problem with your theory is the assumption that all trailers are dropped lower than the 5th wheel which of course is not the case.

Done properly using the air suspension is foolproof, if the trailer legs are lifted off the ground you’ve got the weight of the trailer and as long as you’re lined up right you cannot fail to engage the pin, further more you’ll engage the pin without having to ram the unit back hard onto it.

57

tachograph:

Carryfast:
As you said yourself right there is where it can all go wrong.I’m not sure about the relevance of pin positions in all this but I do know that we had the old 40 foot trailers and the later 45 ft types which I’m guessing had more front over hang past the pin in the case of the latter.In all cases as I’ve said I used exactly the same method to couple both types and as I used in the case of steel suspension units.IE leaving the unit running height at normal and using the ramps etc on the unit to do the job that they were designed for.That being to lift the trailer off it’s legs from the start thereby making sure that the pin enters the jaws correctly.

With no need,to mess about trying to reset the relative heights between trailer and unit in the middle of the coupling process and thereby possibly getting it wrong,by mis judging the relative heights and/or fouling the pin in doing so.Thereby creating the conditions whereby the pin could then foreseeably over run the fifth wheel if trailer braking is lost when the lines are connected.

The problem with your theory is the assumption that all trailers are dropped lower than the 5th wheel which of course is not the case.

Done properly using the air suspension is foolproof, if the trailer legs are lifted off the ground you’ve got the weight of the trailer and as long as you’re lined up right you cannot fail to engage the pin, further more you’ll engage the pin without having to ram the unit back hard onto it.

In either case surely we’re referring to the same situation,of making sure that the the unit is supporting the trailer,‘before’ the pin goes into the jaws.

In which case if the trailer is too high then that’s the same situation as dropping the unit lower than the trailer using the air suspension,when the unit is put under it to save a bit of grease being wiped forwards.Which is the problem in either case.

Which in the example you’ve described would either be a case of winding the trailer down lower or ‘raising’ the suspension before going under it.As opposed to what’s being described in the form of ‘lowering’ it to save wiping a bit of grease.While assuming the ramps or fifth wheel forks have lifted the trailer from the start there’s no more need to ‘ram’ the unit back against the pin than there is by raising the suspension,‘after’ putting the unit under the trailer,in either case.

IE the key is that all the weight is supported by the fifth wheel ‘before’ the pin goes in and the best way to ensure that is by making sure that the relative height of the fifth wheel table is higher than the relative height of the trailer plate from the start.Not going under a higher trailer with a lower unit and then trying to line it all up half way through the coupling procedure thereby creating a pin fouling and resulting mis couple risk.

Which is why units ideally have ramps or at least the tapered fifth wheel forks which are designed for that purpose of lifting the trailer onto the fifth wheel from the first point of contact and thereby ensuring that the pin will enter the jaws and not over ride the fifth wheel table.

Which then leaves the question of dropping procedures.Which if done on the similar basis of normal unit height and legs slightly clear of the ground will usually ensure that trailers will be dropped and left at lower than normal running fifth wheel height for when they are picked up again.

The key point being that it’s safer to ‘start’ from a position of a relatively lower trailer and relatively higher unit.

As opposed to vice versa and then hoping that everything will line up correctly when you lift the unit ‘after’ putting the lower fifth wheel under the relatively higher trailer.Thereby creating the unnecessary risk of a mis couple and a pin that could potentially over ride the fifth wheel if the trailer brakes let go when the lines are coupled with the driver standing in the middle on the catwalk. :open_mouth:

58

Carryfast:
It’s all going wrong in that regard because of the stupid idea of messing about with the unit air suspension by going under a high trailer with a low unit then hoping it’s lifted in time without fouling the pin.All to save a bit of grease getting shifted during coupling. :unamused: When the correct idea was/is to go under a low trailer,with a normal running height unit and use the ramps or the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer off its legs right from the start.Bearing in mind that you didn’t have any other option but that with steel suspension anyway and there’s no reason why that procedure should be any different with air especially when it’s the inherently safer option.

If I was being disrespectful I’d simply say “■■■■■■■■” to your post. Being respectful however I’d say that you are wrong on many levels and I’d respectfully suggest that maybe, just maybe you’ve never driven a unit with air suspension and therefore can possibly be forgiven for your antiquated views on the way things were done as opposed to the way things are done nowadays. Seriously CF, if you tried your method with today’s vehicles you’d be ripping mudguards off quicker than you could refit them. Sticking your fingers in your ears whilst shouting “Na na na na I can’t hear him” will not change that one bit.

59

the maoster:
Seriously CF, if you tried your method with today’s vehicles you’d be ripping mudguards off quicker than you could refit them.

Not to mention the sickening crunch and instant dead stop followed by the realisation that apparently not all truck manufactures fit run up rails/ramps anymore.

60

the maoster:

Carryfast:
It’s all going wrong in that regard because of the stupid idea of messing about with the unit air suspension by going under a high trailer with a low unit then hoping it’s lifted in time without fouling the pin.All to save a bit of grease getting shifted during coupling. :unamused: When the correct idea was/is to go under a low trailer,with a normal running height unit and use the ramps or the fifth wheel forks to lift the trailer off its legs right from the start.Bearing in mind that you didn’t have any other option but that with steel suspension anyway and there’s no reason why that procedure should be any different with air especially when it’s the inherently safer option.

If I was being disrespectful I’d simply say “■■■■■■■■” to your post. Being respectful however I’d say that you are wrong on many levels and I’d respectfully suggest that maybe, just maybe you’ve never driven a unit with air suspension and therefore can possibly be forgiven for your antiquated views on the way things were done as opposed to the way things are done nowadays. Seriously CF, if you tried your method with today’s vehicles you’d be ripping mudguards off quicker than you could refit them. Sticking your fingers in your ears whilst shouting “Na na na na I can’t hear him” will not change that one bit.

Fair enough no problem we’ll just have to agree to disagree.But no the DAF 85’s and 95’s at least that I definitely drove were on air and if I ever used the air suspension when coupling it was only to sort out the rare scenario described by tachograph of a trailer being dropped at the wrong height thereby saving a lot of winding effort that was needed in the case of steel suspension.But never to make the unit lower than the trailer then lift it after putting it under.With no surprise not even a mark on the mudguards because that’s what the ramps were there for.But yes that obviously isn’t as easy without sufficient provision of ramps.In which case maybe the problems,which nmm was referring to,can possibly in large part be explained by insufficient provision of ramps to allow easy,inherently safer,old school coupling methods. :bulb: