Greetings,All.
I drove a Seddon Atkinson 401 with the RR Eagle Diesel 265 on Shell.Apart from routine maintenance,it was never off the road.It had a Spicer Splitter G/box,ran at 32 tons.
I agree with most of the posts,it was a marvellous engine and pulled like a train. It was a “W” reg.Regards,900x20. 
I can re-call attending a Lunch as a guest of ERF in about 79/80 and Peter Foden telling me “that the best favour us hauliers could do for ERF,was to stop banging on about wanting Gardner engined chassis and order ■■■■■■■ chassis and we were to be really,really helpful we should order RR engined chassis as they were plentiful and cheaper” He also told me that at that time ERF were producing about 3000 chassis annually,1000 of which were Gardner powered,1500 were ■■■■■■■ and 500 were RR the latter which were nearly all destined for the big Oil cos.etc.Now then who on this thread can explain to me that if the RR automotive diesel engine was so wonderful why wasn’t seen in numbers within the bit haulage fleets similar to the ■■■■■■■ penetration at the time ? And as for The British Army’s buying prowess via the MOD,don’t make me laugh,they regularly get “stuffed up” with all kinds of rubbish and at exhorbitant prices to boot ! 
Cheers Bewick.
Off topic a little Bewick.I can remember Richard Read having a Rolls powered new tractor unit on the forecourt for over a year!! We used to borrow bits off it,even the gearbox once.Eric Vick had to have 5 or 6 injector pumps on one that he bought.
Bewick:
I can re-call attending a Lunch as a guest of ERF in about 79/80 and Peter Foden telling me “that the best favour us hauliers could do for ERF,was to stop banging on about wanting Gardner engined chassis and order ■■■■■■■ chassis and we were to be really,really helpful we should order RR engined chassis as they were plentiful and cheaper” He also told me that at that time ERF were producing about 3000 chassis annually,1000 of which were Gardner powered,1500 were ■■■■■■■ and 500 were RR the latter which were nearly all destined for the big Oil cos.etc.Now then who on this thread can explain to me that if the RR automotive diesel engine was so wonderful why wasn’t seen in numbers within the bit haulage fleets similar to the ■■■■■■■ penetration at the time ? And as for The British Army’s buying prowess via the MOD,don’t make me laugh,they regularly get “stuffed up” with all kinds of rubbish and at exhorbitant prices
to boot !
On the c series wasnt the ■■■■■■■ the standard option.
That was the CP series Kev.
leylandlover:
Off topic a little Bewick.I can remember Richard Read having a Rolls powered new tractor unit on the forecourt for over a year!! We used to borrow bits off it,even the gearbox once.Eric Vick had to have 5 or 6 injector pumps on one that he bought.
Now if this post dosen’t adequately sum up the short comings of the RR automotive diesel engine I do not know what will,you would have thought that Richard Read would have put the motor into service for a while then got rid after a while,but by the sound of it even he wasn’t silly enough to do that and he was a big haulier as well as an ERF Dealer ! 
Cheers Bewick.
Evening Gentlemen, well it looks like I will be doing Hay at the same time as Straw, if these weather patterns continue! Just looking at the grass falling under the wind and rain makes me sad.
As sad as the negative comments about Rolls Diesels, (and I think that most are based on the early Eagle 205s and 220s, not the earlier C series, or the later 265, 280, and 305s. Rolls were in a parlous state in 73, yet Gardner had no cash to buy them, however much they wished to! Rolls had little funding to develop the in line 6cyl Eagle series. Then in 79 they lost their major client , the Iranian Tank deal, and the “Whitehall Mandarins”, must have spilt their Gin with concern, due to MOD envolvement, so out comes Vickers with an “economical ■■■■■”.
You know, Brian Leverton, Head of Engineering at Rolls ran the business on a shoe string, the design ethos was to create a Hi Torque Rise Engine, and with little funding the Eagle was made good. Then of course the whole company, in 1984, (with a short term licence to use the name Rolls Royce), was sold to Perkins for a two million pound profit, and it was still Shrewsburys largest employer, at 1300 souls, (but in `79, there had been 3600), and today the site is…a B… Supermarket! The British disease!
Trev H , is right , the 220s had a “funny throttle”, I have nil experience of Big J 220s, but too much, of Seddons example…and they made even the most competent driver sound like a “hooligan”. The Rolls engine first appeared in France in the Saviem SM, purchased by Rolls, and converted at their expense, fitted with a 9speed Fuller, and sent out to our, “best”, (and they were), clients for evaluation. And they loved this 305hp machine. Sadly our marriage to Berliet killed any potential…but as here reputations pass, and when Leyland began to sell in France, first the Marathon, then the T45, they were universally known as "Le Camion Rolls Royce. And I had the (happy/unhappy), task of addressing the “Big Cheeses”, of RVI, and informing them that Leyland were selling more, "Camions Rolls Royce"in France, than we were Saviem/Berliets in the UK!(and having experience of, and enjoying the friendship of many Roll Royce people, well, I enjoyed that briefing)!!!
Did you know that Guy built engines…and succesfully! There was the 7 cylinder Radial Wasp Aero engine, then the 9 cylinder Dragonfly at 350hp, then a 12 cylinder version! That Guy built the first “drop frame” 6 wheeled diesel powered double deck bus, (sold in volume to London), the same chassis was adapted to create the low loading Vixen freight chassis, the first 6 wheeled double deck Trolley bus, with “re-generative braking”, (that fed electrical power back to the network). I remember Marcel Le Grass, from the bus research area of RVI , relating to me how they had adapted Guys original design for the RVI Trolleybuses of the 70s!!! Some engineers those Guy people of old!
Then of course Guy were a major customer of Gardner, (for they were a major PSV manufacturer, as well as lorries. Now some operators found Mr Gardners LW low on power, so Guy developed , with Henry Meadows the Guy-Meadows 10.35litre PSV diesel, which would be coupled to a (licence built at Fallings Park), Wilson fluid flywheel pre selector gearbox.
But if we jump to Guys big attack on the heavier end of the Road Transport market, we find ourselves at the 1954 Commercial Motor Show, when Guy showed the Goliath range, (rapidly re-named as Invincible, as Guys 1930s model name Goliath was now owned by Germanys Goliath Werke GmbH, (part of Borgward), builder of the little Tempo van. The Goliath /Invincibles were based on AEC running gear, but powered by Gardner 5& 6cyl engines, and Meadows DC 6 30, 10 .35litre 130 hp engines, withthe angular cab from (around the corner), Willenhall Motor Radiator. The range was from 14/24tons gvw. The Otter, with a 4LW Gardner was also shown, but a Guy built version of the original Motor Panels design gave a “legal” 8tons payload to this Gardner powered machine.
Then by `58, the new Ron Thomas/Trevor Duckley Invincible range was available, totally a Wolverhampton design, but utilising Meadows, Gardner, and AEC power, built under Works Manager John Bowley, (later AECs General Manager), plus the TGB of Clitheroe designed Warrior Light Eight, with AEC 470 power . Coupled with an expanding overseseas market for PSV chassis, Guys future seemed secure.
And on that happy note, I shall away to my Bollinger…and hopefully my tea!
Cheerio for now.
Very well explained and very interesting as usual “Saviem”,Oh! the Fell farm,near Ullswater, I used to stay at as a lad for my summer holidays once had to “shake” their hay rows out on Christmas day trying to get the crop dry,I kid you not ! 
Cheers Dennis.
I was fortunate to find a copy of the book below in a second hand shop for £6, a very good photo reference of the company from beginning up until the production of the Big J, unfortunately it doesn’t go into much detail on the Big J (strange as it was published 1989), infact only one small photo is included of a six wheel chassis. Very good clear black and white pics of the other commercials, military and buses that GUY used to produce are included though and a bargain at the price! Franky.
Saviem, mon brave,
At great personal expense and some considerable inconvenience I have finally managed to source your new tractor…
Evening all,well its still raining, and the grass is almost horizontal, and Dennis you have cheered me up so much with your comment about December......that Im glad that we have no gas on site!!! Can you believe it? We are going to need GM modified seed to feed the nation if this carries on…believe me!
ROF , nice machines, but I come from a pure lorry background, and can never believe the “crude” designs foisted on all “agricoles”, by tractor manufacturers! I have had a few “old” tractors through my hands, but somehow, well, they lack charm, and personality. The only one I regret selling, (to a bloated Fat Cat,…and at a suitable price…my only recompense, boy did I need his cash at that point), was a V series Turner, Yeoman of England…but I needed the cash…his cash…and I bet he has never driven it himself,… investments…Bahhhhhhhhh.
As for “steamers”, I love them, but I find little in common with the "play acting, pretend Engine and Worlds Fair reading contemporary
Showmen", owners , of today! My pal, Jimmy Jones, (a real Showman), and I have had many a chuckle at these poseurs, when watching their antics, same as the boys with ballast tractors, and caravans, as Jimmy said, “bet they never tried to get a Matador and three fully loaded trailers off the “Wakes Ground” at Willenhall, after a weeks rain”!!!
Sorry, but I`m not a poseur, or antisocial old boy, but most of the pretend “show circuit” of today leaves me stone cold…but I would enjoy a Lanz “Bulldog” to go for a pint on the Sabbath!!!
So what of Guy, well Sydneys biggest mistake was the acquisition of the Lisle Families Star Motor Company, in the late 20s. Undoubtedly superb engineers, producing a premium specification Car, and a freight chassis to rival the REO Speed waggon, in the Flyer. Another Wolverhampton Company, but whose products related to another era, both in price, and lack of economy, but not quality, though Guys South African factory found a ready market! But South Africa, and its demand for Bus chassis, but at low margins, was to prove a major weakness in Guy`s future viability.
Then came 1958, and Guy`s real attack on the lorry market, their “own” chassis and cab designed Invincible range. It was a Show stopper, two eight wheeled chassis, three six wheeled chassis, two twin steers, and four four wheelers. The striking Ron Thomas Buick/Ford cab design, on top of a pure Guy, Trevor Dudley chassis, with power by, Rolls Royce C6 @210hp, ■■■■■■■ HU, HF, and NH, plus Gardners “new”, 150hp LX, and those engines produced “next door”, the Meadows 6DC500, and 630, plus dear Leylands 0.600 Transmission options included the USAs Fuller, Brown 6sp, Meadows 5SP, and Leyland. Braking with air assisted hand brake, split air circuits, proper heating and demisting, and even a normal control option for Europe…no wonder it stole the show! (But as Carl Williams stated, the steel bottom to the cab rusted like crazy)!!!
But was this cab design the “zenith”, for GB, have there ever been a better looking design for a lorry cab■■? Guy were on an engineering high, and that was to be their downfall!
Guy were concious to develop their lead in the PSV market. Aware of General Motors advances in air suspension for Greyhounds operations in the US, they created the type 4104 Scenicruiser. Guy, studied the design, and decided that they could adapt this to double deck PSVs in the UK. They found a ready client in West Riding Automobile Company, who promised a 100unit plus order, if such a vehicle could be produced.
Guy responded with vigor…but the design was not fully developed due to lack of resource…cash!!!
An incredible package for its time, air suspension, disc brakes, (air actuation), and independent front suspension, engineered for the UK double deck market, the Wulfrunian, and export, the Victory. The latter was to prove more successfull than the former. The Victory was lighter than the Wulfrunian, suitable for 40ft body, fitted with a Leyland UE680, and Guy manufactured fluid flywheel 5 speed auto box. I remember seeing examples still working (reliably), in Belgium in the 80s, long after the ill fated Wulfrunians had been disposed of by my pal Paul Sykes!!!
What was wrong with the Wulfrunian? It was twenty years ahead of its time in concept…but in operation it was a disaster. The Firestone derived air suspension was unreliable in operation, the four wheel disc brakes with air activation, by Girling, (but designed by Guy), suffered horrendous cooling problems, the engine, mounted next to your Driver, (Ailsa copied the design exactly), AEC590, 6LX Gardner, O.600 Leyland and Guy, Wilson semi auto boxes…no problems. But warranty claims, (((% honoured), bought b Guy to its knees!! And there were plans to put air suspension on the Invincibles, as well as disc brakes…Should the Guy engineers have been reined in■■? But Guy was also suffering in South Africa, where local management had taken bold decisions without recourse to Fallings Park!!
The scene was set for William Lyons to step in, and a new era for those employed at Guy!
Cheerio for now.
A bit more on the Wulfrunian:
aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-a … ulfrunian/
And a snippet from Geoffrey Hilditch about the six wheel Guy PSV of the early 1930s as belonging to Oldham Corporation:
" The (rear) axles were located by two springs of the familiar semi-elliptic form, one looking upwards, the other down. These springs had a common trunnion mounting in the centre and pins at either end passing through suitable brackets carried top and bottom on the inner sides of the axle casings, and so the ends of the springs had to carry all the accelerating and braking torques plus the weight of the bus. They didn’t! It was as simple as that, so when a spring eye sheared a second would quickly follow and then the axle would literally turn over when the companion flanges, universal joints, brake rods and sundry other bits and pieces would promptly be reduced to scrap…
“… It Hurtled over the Saffron Lane level crossing…the intermediate axle dropped and turned over when the end of the axle drive shaft jammed between the next line of rail and the sleepers that formed the roadway. That axle then stopped dead but the bus went onwards until the rear(most) axle came to rest under the back platform. For the next seven hours all railway traffic was suspended or diverted and it is on record that the LMS took a dim view of a Guy’s disruptive abilities.”
“The sort of delay the railway suffered, though, was almost equalled by that inherent in the brake system for there was a long thin pipe connecting the exhauster with the vacuum tank and the main servo. A driver would press his foot down on the stopping pedal, obtain no reaction and press down some more. By the time the second and larger force was registering gently at the linings the servo would suddenly come alive and wheel locking would promptly follow, all of which must have given…the driver and his colleagues some very nasty moments and, of course, this in turn was relayed to the spring ends with the sort of results…”
from G.G Hilditch " A further look at buses". Ian Allan 1981
When a manufacturer, like Guy gave a wide option of engines, it is wrong to blame them of any engine problems or shortcomings. The operator who bought and specified the engine for their vehicle made the choice, and up to the seventies appart from the large own account fleets the person making the choice had usually started his ‘training’ as a driver, who understood vehicle operation. Not an accountant who made a choice on finance driven thoughts, or a university graduate who hadn’t got a clue. So the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and its easy to see why Gardner engines were so popular.
The chassis components built by Guy could not have been bettered in the years they were buit, and in my opinion that is why they were a good manufacturer. Sure they had cab rot problems probably a little bit worse than their competitors, but that was corrected by the Big J cab.
On the other hand we had Leyland, who produced vehicles with poor engines, paticulary their fixed head efforts. where Guy as a company were prepared to listen and take notice of their customers and come from the view that the customer is aways right, Leyland were arrogant, thinking that they knew best with very poor customer relationship record. Unfortunatly when it was decided from high that rationalisation had to be Leyland had the loudest voice, with noone sticking up for Guy, AEC, Scammell or Albion, who all were good manufacturers.
In my eyes it was the lunatics taking over the asylum.
Carl Williams:
When a manufacturer, like Guy gave a wide option of engines, it is wrong to blame them of any engine problems or shortcomings. The operator who bought and specified the engine for their vehicle made the choice, and up to the seventies appart from the large own account fleets the person making the choice had usually started his ‘training’ as a driver, who understood vehicle operation. Not an accountant who made a choice on finance driven thoughts, or a university graduate who hadn’t got a clue. So the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and its easy to see why Gardner engines were so popular.The chassis components built by Guy could not have been bettered in the years they were buit, and in my opinion that is why they were a good manufacturer. Sure they had cab rot problems probably a little bit worse than their competitors, but that was corrected by the Big J cab.
On the other hand we had Leyland, who produced vehicles with poor engines, paticulary their fixed head efforts. where Guy as a company were prepared to listen and take notice of their customers and come from the view that the customer is aways right, Leyland were arrogant, thinking that they knew best with very poor customer relationship record. Unfortunatly when it was decided from high that rationalisation had to be Leyland had the loudest voice, with noone sticking up for Guy, AEC, Scammell or Albion, who all were good manufacturers.
In my eyes it was the lunatics taking over the asylum.
Some good points there Carl, take the 6 wheelers for example, Guys used AEC 470/505 or Gardner motors, they suddenly became unavailable and then only came with the fixed head 500, not many of those were sold, which resulted in them dropping the 6 wheeler market.
Our Guy 505’s were bombproof reliable. One was converted to a towtruck and gave sterling service recovering trucks all over the country in the 1970’s and early 1980’s. It actually spent most of its time recovering Volvo F88 290’s with blown up engines, towing them into Volvo garages for rebuilding. It was a regular occurrence for the truck not to return to base and was turned around from the Volvo garage to fetch back yet another stricken F88, F86 or even the occasional F89. It never let us down. That work dried up when the F10/F12 appeared on the scene.
One thing I was very impressed with was the level of support, service and warranty Volvo gave to its customers at that time. It was not unusual to drop a truck into Volvo at 6.00~7.00pm with a blown engine and return early the following day and see it all rebuilt, completed and ready with the engine ticking over on the forecourt waiting for its customer, covered under warranty. It’s no wonder operators stuck with them.
Evening all, Riverstick, you are right about the positive attitude of Volvo Dealers in the early days. At Hartshornes we traded on our Aftersales support. Many is the time that I have had some heavy dirty bit on the back seat of my car to make sure that someones motor would be working the next day, and if we did not have it in stock, then we took it off a new one and argued with Ailsa next day, about who should pay!! Regarding repairs, well the clock was never watched, we just did it, and got those wheels rolling!! It was all about keeping an operator going, sadly something that the British Manufacturers never recognised!
Perhaps it was the confused webb of warranties, some provided by the chassis manufacturer, and some by the component supplier. Never ever fair on the operator, (and do not forget that many were “rogues”, who could, and would “try it on”)!! It was a balance, provide a service, cover your costs, and keep the customer happy. Somehow Guy seemed to have a good reputation for doing just that. The illustration on the cover of Frankydobo`s book shows one of the two works mobile service workshops operated from Fallings Park. Certainly operators could deal with the “works” on a direct basis, and Guy were proud of their parts stock, and availability
cav551, that post sums up the disasterous Wulfrunian episode, a salient lesson in not letting the engineers have their head! and Carl, you are totally correct about the Leyland attitude.Even when it mellowed, some years later, the damage had been done, and when Guy had ceased to produce, Leyland did not retain the fleet business.
Sad to reflect upon is it not? Cheerio for now.
The European infiltrators’ customer service was a revelation to me. The only time my F88 let me down was- Sod’s Law- in the middle of a rainy night in the wilds of Norfolk. The old girl came to a dead stop within sight of an old-fashioned phone box. No mobile phone things then! The second piece of luck came when I discovered that the phone box was complete with a directory. Not knowing anyone in the area, I looked up the number of Ken Thomas, the only haulier I knew in the area. Proper gentleman, he didn’t seem to mind being disturbed at such an ungodly hour and told me he would ring the nearest Volvo dealer who, he assured me, would be with me within the hour.
He was absolutely right- Duffields of Wisbech had their breakdown contractor on scene in less than 40 minutes, dropped the loaded trailer in a lay-by and had me back in Duffield’s yard in no time at all. Next morning I discovered that Ken Thomas’ had rung Duffield’s workshop manager and asked him to get me back on the road as quickly as possible. Upon investigation it was discovered that the fuel pump drive shaft had sheared and that there was no replacement in the country. Not to be outdone, the manager despatched a fitter with a toolbox and two £20 notes to visit all the commercial breakers in the area “and don’t come back until you’ve found one”.
I was back on the road by four o’clock that same day.
The second incident arose when my eight month old DAF threw a propshaft centre bearing near Scunthorpe, again on a wet winter’s night. I rang Dafaid at just after seven pm, two fitters turned up in a van, removed the shaft, took it back to their workshop, fitted a new bearing and got me going by eight-thirty.
In contrast, I had a diff failure on a Mk1 Atkinson some years previously and, on telephoning Atky’s at Preston, was told that they could deliver a replacement “sometime in the next week. Probably”
The ghost of AEC is apparent in both positive comments about the Volvo and DAF after sales support. Dafaid in this country was set up and run by former AEC people and Volvo also recruited former AEC service engineers for its support service. Of the home manufacturers AEC was way out in front of its competitors for breakdown response times and after sales support, a service that was inevitably trashed with the dead hand of Leyland in control.