Bewick:
As per usual “CF” you are spouting a load of verbal Bollox !
Leave it out Bewick.Firstly the idea that an engine manufacturer was going to cut off its nose to spite its face by supposedly rationing its products sounds like bollox to me.It’s like a pub saying sorry no beer and what we’ve got is only for a few chosen customers.
As opposed to the more likely scenario that the demand for Gardner’s boat anchors didn’t match the Gardner fans rhetoric.Not because of the bonkers idea that,like the pub with no beer,a specialist loose engine supplier was supposedly telling its customers sorry no engines.But because even Gardner’s most supposedly loyal customers,knew the writing was on the wall.Those pics of your ■■■■■■■ engined Atkis in the day and you confirming that you wouldn’t have bought the 8LXB engined Big J instead,given that choice,being the smoking gun proof of that.
harry_gill:
Hiya,
Dennis, might even get ordered to “sling my hook” in the p""s off
context but bovvered nah’, having a week in Blackpool from the
19th so I’ll get some good Lancashire air in my lungs might just
need to "fitten up"in case I’ve got a fight on my hands, bit of sea
air should do my Good Lady a power of good she’s had an awful
year with the “C” thingy and all the therapy’s involved and the
going abroad is out of the question now with the exhorbitant cost of travel insurance me being ancient and my Missus still being observed the insurance is three to four times the cost of the holiday, and I wouldn’t pay it on principal, robbing gits.
thanks harry, long retired
You’ve got that right Harry, bloody crooks they are. I was thinking about another little jaunt into Europe (the missis and me in the Jaguar) , then I started tallying to cost up and came across the aforementioned ‘bloody crooks’. When you’re old (like wot we are) they KNOW they can rip you off and when I mentioned a light touch of prostate cancer their eyes lit up. Stuff em…we’ll have a break in the UK.
Bewick:
As per usual “CF” you are spouting a load of verbal Bollox !
Leave it out Bewick.Firstly the idea that an engine manufacturer was going to cut off its nose to spite its face by supposedly rationing its products sounds like bollox to me.It’s like a pub saying sorry no beer and what we’ve got is only for a few chosen customers.
As opposed to the more likely scenario that the demand for Gardner’s boat anchors didn’t match the Gardner fans rhetoric.Not because of the bonkers idea that,like the pub with no beer,a specialist loose engine supplier was supposedly telling its customers sorry no engines.But because even Gardner’s most supposedly loyal customers,knew the writing was on the wall.Those pics of your ■■■■■■■ engined Atkis in the day and you confirming that you wouldn’t have bought the 8LXB engined Big J instead,given that choice,being the smoking gun proof of that.
I can only reiterate the top line of this post “CF” !
You really haven’t got a ■■■■■■■ clue about what went on in the real world back in the day “CF”
I recall ordering an “A” Series 8LXB engine unit in early 1974 from our local dealer in Carlisle and it should have been delivered later that year as per their promise but it wasn’t until early in 1975 that they came out of the blue to say Oh! your new 8LXB will be here next week ! By this time I had bought more ■■■■■■■ engine units Atkis and one lone Seddon but I didn’t cancel the ERF I bought it and sold it on to an O/D in the Village as he couldn’t get his hands on a new 8LXB ERF for love nor money ! I actually bought this “A” Series back from the O/D about 4 years later when he bought a new “B” series with Jennings Sleeper pod. The “A” Series had only covered about 160,000 miles from new and was immaculate, I sent it down to Daventry and it spent the following years on day shifts to London and back every day. So my learned Friend from Leatherhead it was never the case that operators could just “shop around” and pick up an 8LXB chassis with no difficulty during the 70’s take it from me you couldn’t. Gardners took the decision not to ramp up production to cater for demand at that time so demand always exceeded supply ! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
I can only reiterate the top line of this post “CF” !
You really haven’t got a [zb] clue about what went on in the real world back in the day “CF”
I recall ordering an “A” Series 8LXB engine unit in early 1974 from our local dealer in Carlisle and it should have been delivered later that year as per their promise but it wasn’t until early in 1975 that they came out of the blue to say Oh! your new 8LXB will be here next week ! By this time I had bought more ■■■■■■■ engine units Atkis and one lone Seddon but I didn’t cancel the ERF I bought it and sold it on to an O/D in the Village as he couldn’t get his hands on a new 8LXB ERF for love nor money ! I actually bought this “A” Series back from the O/D about 4 years later when he bought a new “B” series with Jennings Sleeper pod. The “A” Series had only covered about 160,000 miles from new and was immaculate, I sent it down to Daventry and it spent the following years on day shifts to London and back every day. So my learned Friend from Leatherhead it was never the case that operators could just “shop around” and pick up an 8LXB chassis with no difficulty during the 70’s take it from me you couldn’t. Gardners took the decision not to ramp up production to cater for demand at that time so demand always exceeded supply ! Cheers Bewick.
If I’ve read it right you said you wouldn’t have bought the 8 LXB Big J regardless of any supposed availability issues ?.The obvious inference being that you rated the ■■■■■■■ Atki in the day more than the 8 LXB BigJ regardless of whether Guy could meet an order or not ?.
Meanwhile Commercial Motor’s report would have been expected to qualify the report that Guy had introduced the 8 LXB in the BigJ with the supposed supply ‘issues’ of it.
But admittedly I hadn’t even left school at that point in time so I’m not saying that you’ve got it wrong I just can’t understand all the contradictions.In that logic says that Guy predictably just didn’t get the demand for it v the Rolls or ■■■■■■■ options,not that they couldn’t get their hands on enough 8 XLB motors.Let alone the idea that a loose engine producer,obviously reliant for its living on selling engines,was going to deliberately hold back/ration supplies from its existing and potential customers.Bearing in mind your own statement that your issues weren’t anything to do with Guy not being able to meet a potential order it was just that you wouldn’t have been interested in buying one regardless,obviously unlike the ■■■■■■■ Atki ?.
IE make your mind up are you saying that you would have bought 8LXB BigJ’s in preference to ■■■■■■■ Atkis or not ?.Or was it just that you thought that Guy couldn’t meet such an order ?.The answer to that question obviously being a good guide as to the 8LXB’s rarity and Leyland’s eventual realisation that ■■■■■■■ and Rolls was the way to go in either case.Bearing in mind that Guy somehow at least seems to have got its hands on at least 57 of the boat anchors against all your odds.
Now let us just put all this Bollox you are spouting in perspective “CF” ! By your own admission at the time I was unable to just “pick the phone up” and order for “immediate delivery” any 8LXB engined Chassis of my choice ( apart from a Foden! ) you were running around the School yard with a snotty nose and a lump of ginger cake in one hand and pulling a wooden lorry on a bit of string with the other ! So do me a favour and don’t preach to me about something you haven’t got a ■■■■■■■ clue about which I suppose covers a lot of the threads you stick your two 'peneth into At least I was there and “got the T shirt” and I can just about recall those far off years and what the industry was like at the time which is more than you can ! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
Now let us just put all this Bollox you are spouting in perspective “CF” ! By your own admission at the time I was unable to just “pick the phone up” and order for “immediate delivery” any 8LXB engined Chassis of my choice ( apart from a Foden! ) you were running around the School yard with a snotty nose and a lump of ginger cake in one hand and pulling a wooden lorry on a bit of string with the other ! So do me a favour and don’t preach to me about something you haven’t got a [zb] clue about which I suppose covers a lot of the threads you stick your two 'peneth into At least I was there and “got the T shirt” and I can just about recall those far off years and what the industry was like at the time which is more than you can ! Cheers Bewick.
To be fair at that point in time I was old enough to know one end of a motor from the other and that the writing was on the wall for Gardners v their competition having then started work in a truck manufacturing industry in around a year or so.
Anyway the question remains regarding your choice ( preference ? ) of ■■■■■■■ Atki v 8 LXB Big J ?.Bearing in mind that you’ve already said that you wouldn’t have chosen the Guy regardless of whether they had any available to sell you or not.To the point of not even bothering to find out. While we know the answer regarding the Atki.Also bearing in mind that the eventual supply of a delayed Gardner 240 order seems to have resulted in you offloading the new Gardner engined motor wen it eventually arrived while keeping all the ■■■■■■■ engined ones.In which case if that was Gardner’s loyal core customer base they didn’t need others.
Bewick:
Now let us just put all this Bollox you are spouting in perspective “CF” ! By your own admission at the time I was unable to just “pick the phone up” and order for “immediate delivery” any 8LXB engined Chassis of my choice ( apart from a Foden! ) you were running around the School yard with a snotty nose and a lump of ginger cake in one hand and pulling a wooden lorry on a bit of string with the other ! So do me a favour and don’t preach to me about something you haven’t got a [zb] clue about which I suppose covers a lot of the threads you stick your two 'peneth into At least I was there and “got the T shirt” and I can just about recall those far off years and what the industry was like at the time which is more than you can ! Cheers Bewick.
Well Dennis I couldnt have put that any better myself, Of course being old school & had Gardner Powered Motors which did serve my small family firm very well, I wonder if this knowall ever drove a Gardner powered motor, O K They were slow reving engines but driven correctley the were IMO The best option for good MPG,In their day, , Regards Larry. (PS Im just winding down after assisting my Grandson fitting a coil spring to his Alfa Remeo car, What a ■■■■ of a job, But we got it done & he has gone home a happy chappy, Of course when one has all the gear for the job it makes it easypeasy Eh,Im going to pour myself a large single malt before I retire to the bedroom for a good nights kip, Then hopefully I will wake up in the morning ready to rock & roll another day, . Regards Larry.
Bewick:
Now let us just put all this Bollox you are spouting in perspective “CF” ! By your own admission at the time I was unable to just “pick the phone up” and order for “immediate delivery” any 8LXB engined Chassis of my choice ( apart from a Foden! ) you were running around the School yard with a snotty nose and a lump of ginger cake in one hand and pulling a wooden lorry on a bit of string with the other ! So do me a favour and don’t preach to me about something you haven’t got a [zb] clue about which I suppose covers a lot of the threads you stick your two 'peneth into At least I was there and “got the T shirt” and I can just about recall those far off years and what the industry was like at the time which is more than you can ! Cheers Bewick.
Well Dennis I couldnt have put that any better myself, Of course being old school & had Gardner Powered Motors which did serve my small family firm very well, I wonder if this knowall ever drove a Gardner powered motor, O K They were slow reving engines but driven correctley the were IMO The best option for good MPG,In their day, , Regards Larry. (PS Im just winding down after assisting my Grandson fitting a coil spring to his Alfa Remeo car, What a [zb] of a job, But we got it done & he has gone home a happy chappy, Of course when one has all the gear for the job it makes it easypeasy Eh,Im going to pour myself a large single malt before I retire to the bedroom for a good nights kip, Then hopefully I will wake up in the morning ready to rock & roll another day, . Regards Larry.
Waking up every morning is a bonus Larry!
How did you feel about the oil consumption of the Gardners? Quite a few drivers I spoke to said they ‘didn’t need to check the oil.’
‘I just pour a gallon in every morning and that’s always just right.’
Lawrence Dunbar:
Well Dennis I couldnt have put that any better myself, Of course being old school & had Gardner Powered Motors which did serve my small family firm very well, I wonder if this knowall ever drove a Gardner powered motor, O K They were slow reving engines but driven correctley the were IMO The best option for good MPG,In their day, , Regards Larry. (PS Im just winding down after assisting my Grandson fitting a coil spring to his Alfa Remeo car, What a [zb] of a job, But we got it done & he has gone home a happy chappy, Of course when one has all the gear for the job it makes it easypeasy Eh,Im going to pour myself a large single malt before I retire to the bedroom for a good nights kip, Then hopefully I will wake up in the morning ready to rock & roll another day, . Regards Larry.
Firstly yes I did drive a 6 cylinder Gardner powered vehicle.
However the question in this case is simply was the comparative rarity of the 8 LXB BigJ just an issue that Guy couldn’t meet the demand for it ?.As suggested by Bewick’s case regarding the Gardner engine supply situation ?.Or was it that customers preferred the 6 cylinder alternative options.Or even possibly a combination of both.Which seems to be confirmed by Leyland’s eventual engine supply policy.
Bearing in mind that Bewick also clearly stated that he wouldn’t have bought one regardless of availability.Nor answered the question between the buying choice of ■■■■■■■ engined Atki v 8LXB engined Big J ?.Or for that matter why he seems to have offloaded a delayed 8LXB engined order on arrival in favour of keeping the ■■■■■■■ engined option seemingly having been bought as an alternative ?.
Unfortunately “CF” I will have more success ■■■■■■■ into a gale force wind atop o’Shap Fell than trying to explaining to you the ins and outs and vagaries of running a haulage operation during years past together with the attendant problems of vehicle acquisition in those years. Fair play to you though because you valiantly insist on being the “only man in the Regiment marching in time” and I can honestly say that your stupidity ranks alongside that of Jeremy Corbyn as you are both from another ■■■■■■■ Planet ! So carry on spouting your usual ridiculess Bollox as by doing so you demonstrate how out of touch with reality you really are as well as that Clown Corbyn ! Cheers Bewick.
As much as I agree with Bewick on the source of Carryfast’s speech (between his are cheeks) he did ask two legitimate questions. 1, why would you not consider an 8XLB powered Big J and 2, your choice of ■■■■■■■ power, when you were clearly a fan of Gardner engines.
I’d be interested to hear the answers too. As well as the answer from you and the other operators/drivers on the thread about what made the Atki a premium lorry, having only been a passenger of my Dad in both, I couldn’t see it myself, in fact I preferred the Guy or an AEC, as I could get up into one without any help from my old man, whereas in the Atki, I needed a lift.
When Gardner was at its peak, and I know that CF will not comprehend this, Gardner engines sold themselves and Hugh Gardner did allocate and RATION how many each customer had. Hugh Gardner had a spat with Mr Allen (can’t remember his first name) of Atkinson, a gentleman of similar strong opinions to HG, and in revenge the Atkinson allocation of Gardner engines was substantially reduced. I think that there was an attempt to increase production at Gardner’s factory and I remember that in the late 1960s and early 1970s all the local newspapers in and around Manchester carried adverts for skilled machinists and other engineering tradesmen etc. for weeks on end. The numbers of vacancies on offer were very substantial.
Bewick:
Unfortunately “CF” I will have more success ■■■■■■■ into a gale force wind atop o’Shap Fell than trying to explaining to you the ins and outs and vagaries of running a haulage operation during years past together with the attendant problems of vehicle acquisition in those years. Fair play to you though because you valiantly insist on being the “only man in the Regiment marching in time” and I can honestly say that your stupidity ranks alongside that of Jeremy Corbyn as you are both from another [zb] Planet ! So carry on spouting your usual ridiculess Bollox as by doing so you demonstrate how out of touch with reality you really are as well as that Clown Corbyn ! Cheers Bewick.
To be fair at least I didn’t vote for May thinking that she was any different to and a better option than Farron.
Now to get back to the question what was it about the 8 LXB Big J that supposedly made it less of a horse for a similar course as the 8 LXB Atki ( or even a ■■■■■■■ Atki ) ?.The answer to which might at least go some way in answering the question as to why so few 8 LXB’s were made and found their way onto the roads.In addition to probably explaining the final straw that made Leyland group rightly ditch the idea of putting Gardners in its products.IE,notwithstanding the arguable supply issues of Gardner products,the only ‘vagaries’ in this case seems to be the fickle nature of the buying policies of Gardner’s core customer base.
Bewick:
Now let us just put all this Bollox you are spouting in perspective “CF” ! By your own admission at the time I was unable to just “pick the phone up” and order for “immediate delivery” any 8LXB engined Chassis of my choice ( apart from a Foden! ) you were running around the School yard with a snotty nose and a lump of ginger cake in one hand and pulling a wooden lorry on a bit of string with the other ! So do me a favour and don’t preach to me about something you haven’t got a [zb] clue about which I suppose covers a lot of the threads you stick your two 'peneth into At least I was there and “got the T shirt” and I can just about recall those far off years and what the industry was like at the time which is more than you can ! Cheers Bewick.
Well Dennis I couldnt have put that any better myself, Of course being old school & had Gardner Powered Motors which did serve my small family firm very well, I wonder if this knowall ever drove a Gardner powered motor, O K They were slow reving engines but driven correctley the were IMO The best option for good MPG,In their day, , Regards Larry. (PS Im just winding down after assisting my Grandson fitting a coil spring to his Alfa Remeo car, What a [zb] of a job, But we got it done & he has gone home a happy chappy, Of course when one has all the gear for the job it makes it easypeasy Eh,Im going to pour myself a large single malt before I retire to the bedroom for a good nights kip, Then hopefully I will wake up in the morning ready to rock & roll another day, . Regards Larry.
Waking up every morning is a bonus Larry!
Well the 150s that we had didnt use a lot of oil But there again we allways used GB Lubricants stuff called PDXX, Plus it was at the right price, Regards Larry.
How did you feel about the oil consumption of the Gardners? Quite a few drivers I spoke to said they ‘didn’t need to check the oil.’
‘I just pour a gallon in every morning and that’s always just right.’
gingerfold:
When Gardner was at its peak, and I know that CF will not comprehend this, Gardner engines sold themselves and Hugh Gardner did allocate and RATION how many each customer had. Hugh Gardner had a spat with Mr Allen (can’t remember his first name) of Atkinson, a gentleman of similar strong opinions to HG, and in revenge the Atkinson allocation of Gardner engines was substantially reduced. I think that there was an attempt to increase production at Gardner’s factory and I remember that in the late 1960s and early 1970s all the local newspapers in and around Manchester carried adverts for skilled machinists and other engineering tradesmen etc. for weeks on end. The numbers of vacancies on offer were very substantial.
That’s fair enough gingerfold.Having found some confirmation within CM archives,on the balance of probabilities there were some ‘issues’ with Gardner’s supply.While having worked within the truck manufacturing industry I understandably can’t get my head around the idea that anyone would try dictate terms to their users and customers in the form of imposing rationing rather than fixing the problems of supply v demand.Especially when that policy is based on the shaky ground of the customer choice between ■■■■■■■ and to an extent Rolls v Gardner’s fast approaching obsolesence,if not already obsolete,products.
On that note I’d guess that the rarity we see in the 8 LXB Big J would possibly have been the result of the combination of pig headed arrogance on the part of Gardner v its potential customers and the vagaries of the relevant customer base’s idea of the definition of a ‘premium’ truck.When its obvious that we’re just discussing two very similar types of guvnor’s wagon all using the Gardner solution to 250 hp requirement,but with the Big J strangely seeming to be subjected to a double standard in that regard.In which case if it had been me I’d have ordered the Big J over the Atki every time preferably with the Rolls option and definitely wouldn’t have paid a premium for the 8 LXB Atki v the 8 LXB Big J even if I was looking for the Gardner option.So I’d guess we’ve now got some reasoning for the 8 LXB’s Big J’s rarity ( combination of engine availability and/or customer prejudice ).While I’d guess that Bewick had just over estimated the amount of rationing which Gardner had applied to Guy motors in that regard in his disbelief of the rare beast.While also over looking the customer prejudice against it which he himself seems to have applied to it regardless of availability.
newmercman:
As much as I agree with Bewick on the source of Carryfast’s speech (between his are cheeks) he did ask two legitimate questions. 1, why would you not consider an 8XLB powered Big J and 2, your choice of ■■■■■■■ power, when you were clearly a fan of Gardner engines.
I’d be interested to hear the answers too. As well as the answer from you and the other operators/drivers on the thread about what made the Atki a premium lorry, having only been a passenger of my Dad in both, I couldn’t see it myself, in fact I preferred the Guy or an AEC, as I could get up into one without any help from my old man, whereas in the Atki, I needed a lift.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Well “NMM” there was no such thing as a well ordered world back in those days 1) I had never heard of or seen a Guy Big J fitted with an 8LXB. 2) When I finally was established and able to consider buying a Premium unit I chose Atkinson against ERF, and when I enquired about a Gardner engine option Scotts of Penrith Sales Manager just looked at me in disbelief, he couldn’t even give me an idea as to how long I would have to wait and, funnily enough, on checking with our local ERF dealer just on the off chance I was met with the same disbelief ! it didn’t help that I would still have been viewed as a young upstart but I had built up enough contacts to accept that any chance of me buying a Gardner engine unit in 1971 were between slim and nil ( and Slim had just left Town ). However I settled for the ■■■■■■■ 205 and the later 220 and I can say they did me a great job 100%. At no time did I ever consider the Rolls 220 option as IMHO they were rubbish and a Rolls fitted into Seddon 32/4 and the Big J were again IMHO the cheapest and nastiest spec of supposedly Premium units available at that time so our Leatherhead Leper “CF” quoting the Big J with Roller engine just sums the ■■■■ up perfectly. I did in the mid 70’s start buying 180LXB Gardner chassis both new and secondhand then finally moving onto purchasing 8LXB chassis in the later 70’s. But at no time did an 8LXB Big J ever cross my Radar ! and based on the minute number of 8LXB,s Guy’s were able to obtain I’m not surprised none ever popped up, same applied to the few derated Seddon 32/4’s 8LXB’s ( except for one my long gone Pal Malc Woodhouse Snr bought seconhand and didn’t keep very long from memory) I rest my case ! Cheers Bewick.
That explains it then, a very peculiar way of doing business if you compare things to how they’re done now. You had to earn the right to buy an Atki or ERF with a Gardner, which for existing Gardner operators and long time customers was a good thing, It meant their business was appreciated and also stopped young upstarts coming along with a pile of cash and pulling the rug out from under them. A time when a man kept his word.
newmercman:
That explains it then, a very peculiar way of doing business if you compare things to how they’re done now. You had to earn the right to buy an Atki or ERF with a Gardner, which for existing Gardner operators and long time customers was a good thing, It meant their business was appreciated and also stopped young upstarts coming along with a pile of cash and pulling the rug out from under them. A time when a man kept his word.
Some people will struggle with your accurate post on the way it was, Gardner engines were by far the most fuel efficient & their reliability were second to none, making them a sought after engine until the day they fitted turbos.
Bewick:
Unfortunately “CF” I will have more success ■■■■■■■ into a gale force wind atop o’Shap Fell than trying to explaining to you the ins and outs and vagaries of running a haulage operation during years past together with the attendant problems of vehicle acquisition in those years. Fair play to you though because you valiantly insist on being the “only man in the Regiment marching in time” and I can honestly say that your stupidity ranks alongside that of Jeremy Corbyn as you are both from another [zb] Planet ! So carry on spouting your usual ridiculess Bollox as by doing so you demonstrate how out of touch with reality you really are as well as that Clown Corbyn ! Cheers Bewick.
To be fair at least I didn’t vote for May thinking that she was any different to and a better option than Farron.
Now to get back to the question what was it about the 8 LXB Big J that supposedly made it less of a horse for a similar course as the 8 LXB Atki ( or even a ■■■■■■■ Atki ) ?.The answer to which might at least go some way in answering the question as to why so few 8 LXB’s were made and found their way onto the roads.In addition to probably explaining the final straw that made Leyland group rightly ditch the idea of putting Gardners in its products.IE,notwithstanding the arguable supply issues of Gardner products,the only ‘vagaries’ in this case seems to be the fickle nature of the buying policies of Gardner’s core customer base.
I’ve tried not to get involved in this certain debate but again CF you leave yourself wide open with your totally lack of knowledge regarding Gardner engines the Leyland group still specified Gardners as an engine option right through to the 80s
) you were running around the School yard with a snotty nose and a lump of ginger cake in one hand and pulling a wooden lorry on a bit of string with the other ! So do me a favour and don’t preach to me about something you haven’t got a ■■■■■■■ clue about which I suppose covers a lot of the threads you stick your two 'peneth into 
At least I was there and “got the T shirt” and I can just about recall 
While we know the answer regarding the Atki.Also bearing in mind that the eventual supply of a delayed Gardner 240 order seems to have resulted in you offloading the new Gardner engined motor wen it eventually arrived while keeping all the ■■■■■■■ engined ones.In which case if that was Gardner’s loyal core customer base they didn’t need others. 
). However I settled for the ■■■■■■■ 205 and the later 220 and I can say they did me a great job 100%. At no time did I ever consider the Rolls 220 option as IMHO they were rubbish and a Rolls fitted into Seddon 32/4 and the Big J were again IMHO the cheapest and nastiest spec of supposedly Premium units available at that time so our Leatherhead Leper “CF” quoting the Big J with Roller engine just sums the ■■■■ up perfectly. I did in the mid 70’s start buying 180LXB Gardner chassis both new and secondhand then finally moving onto purchasing 8LXB chassis in the later 70’s. But at no time did an 8LXB Big J ever cross my Radar ! and based on the minute number of 8LXB,s Guy’s were able to obtain I’m not surprised none ever popped up, same applied to the few derated Seddon 32/4’s 8LXB’s ( except for one my long gone Pal Malc Woodhouse Snr bought seconhand and didn’t keep very long from memory) I rest my case ! Cheers Bewick.