The B/W shots of the Big J 8 wheeler came to me via another TN member ,the first one was a shot of the Chassis in build at Fallings Park in 1969 and the second shot was the finished motor, chassis/cab on the Guy stand at the 1969 Earls Court motor show. The captions specifically refer to the 350 engine and in brackets saying it was not the 310 engine ! So not wishing to become embroiled in another Wild Goose thingy if anyone does not believe me please PM me and I will put you in touch with my informant who I am sure would be pleased to confirm the facts ! Cheers Dennis.
gingerfold:
ERF-NGC-European:
gingerfold:
Bewick:
I’ve just had a tasty shot of a 1969 Big J 8 wheeler sent to me ( which I can’t put on TNUK) it has a ■■■■■■■ NHT14 350 BHP engine and double drive bogie plated at 56 ton pulling a trailer ! Some machine that ! Eric and me would have been “The dogs” up and down the road on that but maybe that engine hump in the Big J was a bit intrusive compared to the Octopus ! Cheers Dennis.Erm… could be another ‘wild goose chase’ here…■■■■■■■ introduced the Big Cam NHT350 in 1976…so was there a ‘Small Cam’ version available in 1969? Over to the ■■■■■■■ experts
I think the small-cam predecessor was the NTC 335, which did indeed go in some Big-Js (Pickfords had some I believe). Never heard of a Big-J with a 350 though. It may have been re-engined with a 350 from a plant machine, of course… Robert
And the NTC 335 (AKA CU335) became an option in the 6x4 Leyland Marathon in 1976, which begs the question, if the NTC 350 was available then why wasn’t that option offered? I’m with you Robert, this 1969 Big J is a re-engined job. Unless of course someone proves us wrong…
But as we know the ERF European adverts made a big thing about the small cam ■■■■■■■ being available up to at least 400 rating in a weird attempt to big up their choice of 335 for the European,obviously before 1976.In addition to ■■■■■■■■ own small cam spec listings applying before that date which I posted.I’m sure that I actually raised the question as to why didn’t ERF fit the 350 in the European instead of the 335.The difference being no after cooling on the 335,some primitive after cooling in the case of the 350,as opposed to ‘proper’ after cooling in the case of the 350 + specs.So probably no obvious reason why up to 400 couldn’t have been offered in '69 and the logical choice,if not the small cam 400,for a 56 tonner.Also don’t see any references anywhere to the 350 + spec small cam being limited to only off road applications in the day.
While it seems clear that comparing the 8 LXB with turbo ■■■■■■■ and Rolls is an apples v oranges comparison which CM would/should have been expected to point out within the Big J engine options article.Realistically a turbo Rolls/■■■■■■■ buyer was never going to go for an NA 8 LXB nor vice versa.Both being two totally different buying priorities ( Gardner fuel consumption but with a bit more poke than a pathetic 180.As opposed to the out right power and more importantly torque of the turbo ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ surprise which formula eventually won out.Make no mistake the 8 LXB was a niche product against turbo Rolls ■■■■■■■ meant for a specific type of fast disappearing customer of which Bewick was obviously one in the day.
Something tells me that Bewick has secret regrets at not ordering a fleet of 8 LXB powered Big J’s to create some more profits to add to his aristocratic pension pot and to maintain the ■■■■■■■■ estate in even more luxury in his retirement years. 
Bewick:
The B/W shots of the Big J 8 wheeler came to me via another TN member ,the first one was a shot of the Chassis in build at Fallings Park in 1969 and the second shot was the finished motor, chassis/cab on the Guy stand at the 1969 Earls Court motor show. The captions specifically refer to the 350 engine
Small cam available up to NTA 400 for road spec,let alone NTC 350,at least as of 1972 and probably before that.( Page 4 ).
gingerfold:
ERF-NGC-European:
gingerfold:
Bewick:
I’ve just had a tasty shot of a 1969 Big J 8 wheeler sent to me ( which I can’t put on TNUK) it has a ■■■■■■■ NHT14 350 BHP engine and double drive bogie plated at 56 ton pulling a trailer ! Some machine that ! Eric and me would have been “The dogs” up and down the road on that but maybe that engine hump in the Big J was a bit intrusive compared to the Octopus ! Cheers Dennis.Erm… could be another ‘wild goose chase’ here…■■■■■■■ introduced the Big Cam NHT350 in 1976…so was there a ‘Small Cam’ version available in 1969? Over to the ■■■■■■■ experts
I think the small-cam predecessor was the NTC 335, which did indeed go in some Big-Js (Pickfords had some I believe). Never heard of a Big-J with a 350 though. It may have been re-engined with a 350 from a plant machine, of course… Robert
And the NTC 335 (AKA CU335) became an option in the 6x4 Leyland Marathon in 1976, which begs the question, if the NTC 350 was available then why wasn’t that option offered? I’m with you Robert, this 1969 Big J is a re-engined job. Unless of course someone proves us wrong…
They definately did offer a 350bhp in the 8 wheeler must have been some machine !
Click on page twice to read.
Is that " Ill Silencio" I can hear ! Cheers Dennis.
My last new eight wheeler in 1996 had a 335 bhp engine operating at 31 tonne gvw so about the same I guess? However for the 1970 period it would be more than other eights but then they would only be running around the 26 tonne mark solo anyway. I can’t think that the Big J would have had many takers though, not many operators would need that much power (and the fuel consumption!) and there is no mention of the unladen weight?
I do wonder why these smaller volume manufacturers spent precious time and money experimenting with projects like this, unless they had a customer already lined up for it if the sales didn’t take off?
Pete.
windrush:
My last new eight wheeler in 1996 had a 335 bhp engine operating at 31 tonne gvw so about the same I guess? However for the 1970 period it would be more than other eights but then they would only be running around the 26 tonne mark solo anyway. I can’t think that the Big J would have had many takers though, not many operators would need that much power (and the fuel consumption!) and there is no mention of the unladen weight?I do wonder why these smaller volume manufacturers spent precious time and money experimenting with projects like this, unless they had a customer already lined up for it if the sales didn’t take off?
Pete.
I’d guess it would have been something along the lines of a commonly accepted Australian or NZ market export spec type prime mover in the day so not an issue of a white elephant for Guy.While the article is a perfect example of how the UK road transport industry and manufacturers were effectively sabotaged by ridiculous government over regulation.When the 8 wheeler rigid and trailer combination would have been the obvious solution to UK type road conditions and maximising productivety without pulverising the roads and making it far more difficult for the import invasion to take off here.
windrush:
My last new eight wheeler in 1996 had a 335 bhp engine operating at 31 tonne gvw so about the same I guess? However for the 1970 period it would be more than other eights but then they would only be running around the 26 tonne mark solo anyway. I can’t think that the Big J would have had many takers though, not many operators would need that much power (and the fuel consumption!) and there is no mention of the unladen weight?I do wonder why these smaller volume manufacturers spent precious time and money experimenting with projects like this, unless they had a customer already lined up for it if the sales didn’t take off?
Pete.
It was obviously intended for the overseas markets such as Australia and South Africa. As we all know many a model from various builders was shown at Commercial Motor Shows over the years that never went into production. I would suggest that this Guy eight-wheeler would have come into that category. I’ll find out though, I know the former sales manager of Guy Motors, and I’ve never heard him mention this model
Bewick:
Is that " Ill Silencio" I can hear ! Cheers Dennis.
Well certainly there is literature about it, I’ll give you that Dennis. But then again does that mean any were sold? I’ll find out as I know the man who will know.
TruckNetUK . Old Time Lorries . Guy Big J 8LXB Tractive Unit . Page 146 . Guy Big J8 ■■■■■■■ NTK350-Engined,R8x4 30-Ton GVW.56-Ton GTW
Drawbar Trailer Lorry . VALKYRIE . Thursday,7th March,2019.
The Guy Big J8 ■■■■■■■ NTK350 R8x4 56-Ton GTW Drawbar Lorry has been covered before on TruckNetUK Old Time Lorries:Guy,page 3,June 2013,for example -
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=101227&start=60
And ZB [Anorak] posted these two Commercial Motor Magazine links:-
Edit- senior moment there; the 350 8x4 was on the preceding pages:
archive.commercialmotor.com/page … er-1970/52
archive.commercialmotor.com/page … er-1970/53
The above Guy Heavies With Turbocharged Diesels article in the Friday,4th September,1970 edition of the Commercial Motor Magazine was published on the eve of,or during the,Commercial Vehicle Motor Show at Earls Court in September 1970 - there was no show in 1969: Commercial Vehicle Motor Shows took place every two years at Earls Court,thus it was Earls Court in 1966,Kelvin Hall in 1967,Earls Court in 1968,Kelvin Hall in 1969,Earls Court in 1970,Kelvin Hall in 1971,Earls Court in 1972 …and so on until the first of the National Motor Shows in September or October 1978 at the National Exhibition Centre = NEC,Birmingham.
Therefore the prototype Guy Big J8 ■■■■■■■ NTK350 R8x4 56-Ton GTW Drawbar Lorry was almost certainly built in 1970 just in time for the
Commercal Vehicle Motor Show 1970.
Apart from the ■■■■■■■ NTK350 Diesel Engine this Guy had a Borg & Beck 15 Inch Twin Plate Clutch and a Fuller RTO1213 13F 1R Gearbox.
Guy Big J8 Rigid 8 Lorries in The Observer’s Book Of Commercial Vehicles,1971 Edition.Lower photograph Guy Big J8,■■■■■■■ NTK350 Turbocharged-Engined,R8x4 30-Ton GVW,56-Ton GTW Drawbar Trailer Lorry.Olyslager-Warne.1#
Guy Big J8,■■■■■■■ NTK350,350 BHP,950 LB FT Torque Diesel-Engined,Rigid 8x4 30-Ton GVW - 56-Ton GTW Drawbar Lorry.Prototype.Commercial Motor Show 1970.Commercial Motor.1#.
As far as I know only the above prototype was built,there were no production models.
Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Tractive Unit - a reminder : People,including members of TruckNetUK,have seen and driven examples of this
Guy lorry model,and I myself has provided documentary proof that 29 examples of the Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Tractive Unit were built,
including this British Commercial Vehicle Museum letter:-
Guy.British Commercial Vehicle Museum = BCVM.Letter from BCVM in regard to the 29 Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Units built information total fee of £1450. Circa 2-10-2015.1#
…or £50 for each Guy Big J Gardner 8LXB Tractive Unit built.
And photographic proof by Peter Davies:-
Classic Truck,October 2017.In-depth article on Guy Big J Lorry Range,by Peter Davies on pages 18-24.Photograph of a Smith Of Maddiston Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive Unit-Artic,OWG 852M,on the front & in article.
As I’ve already pointed out,the British Leyland Truck & Bus Division photographic department mainly concentrated on AEC,Leyland and Scammell
marques,so publicity photographs of Guy vehicles are rare in comparison,including photographs of the rare Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB Tractive
Unit…so photographs of It’s Gardner 8LXB engine installation are rarer still! 
Anyway,it has already been objectively proved that at least 29 Guy Big J4T Gardner 8LXB 240-250 Tractive Units were built and existed. 
VALKYRIE
gingerfold:
Bewick:
Is that " Ill Silencio" I can hear ! Cheers Dennis.Well certainly there is literature about it, I’ll give you that Dennis. But then again does that mean any were sold? I’ll find out as I know the man who will know.
It’s arguably more a question of did the buying criteria and all of the resulting potential and actual sales of turbo ■■■■■■■■■■■■■ powered versions both domestic and export outweigh same in the case of the 8 XLB powered option.
IE I’d suggest that the business case for the former seems to outweigh the latter.In which the latter would possibly have been a niche product to the point where it would only have been available to special,possibly after market retrofit,order.Let alone when seeming supply issues of the 8 LXB are taken into account.
Picture the scene buyer asks for more power than typical NA Gardner etc 6 cylinder options and is told it’s a choice of either turbo Rolls/■■■■■■■■■■ the more expensive NA 8 LXB with less power but arguably better fuel consumption and durability.But supplies are limited to the point where the thing has a waiting list for it and therefore can’t be guaranteed to be available to meet a factory order other than as a retrofit after market option as and when supplies are available.So yes I believe someone probably saw one and someone probably drove one.Bearing in mind that Bewick didn’t ask whether any factory examples were actually ever built on the line from new.As opposed to being very rare retrofit fit after market bitsas made to pander to a niche ever reducing obsolete market in which the Gardner’s simplicity and durability and fuel consumption advantage perceived or real was everything to its few buyers.The rest is history.
Hey Gingerfold,
As you Know the former Sales Manager for Guy Motors have you tabled the question re the 8LXB engine to him?? could be the key to narrowing down this hunt! 
E,W,
Here we go here we go here we go ! How come these posts about a ■■■■■■■ engined 8 Wheeler Big J have quickly morphed into the Big J 8LXB “Unicorn” ( Well all the aerosol Politicians are using the phrase!) Oh! and there would appear to be some discrepancy in the “numbers” built as it has been well documented in many previous posts that there were actually supposed to be 39 built or it was also suggested that there were 40 built with 39 going to SOM and one escaping to an Operator in the Midlands ! So now we have a claim that only 29 ( Twenty Nine) were in fact built ? so were the other 10 (ten) just a further figment of someone’s imagination or the “wacky baccy” was maybe not that strong on the day ! 
I suppose it all brings neet !!! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
Here we go here we go here we go ! How come these posts about a ■■■■■■■ engined 8 Wheeler Big J have quickly morphed into the Big J 8LXB “Unicorn” ( Well all the aerosol Politicians are using the phrase!) Oh! and there would appear to be some discrepancy in the “numbers” built as it has been well documented in many previous posts that there were actually supposed to be 39 built or it was also suggested that there were 40 built with 39 going to SOM and one escaping to an Operator in the Midlands ! So now we have a claim that only 29 ( Twenty Nine) were in fact built ? so were the other 10 (ten) just a further figment of someone’s imagination or the “wacky baccy” was maybe not that strong on the day !
Which leaves the question,unlike the ■■■■■■■ engined examples,would Guy have even bothered with all the aggravation and costs of producing all the different installation components including the specific cooling system for the 8 LXB on a typically expected production numbers basis.As opposed to a bespoke installation kit supplied on an as and when basis bearing in mind the type of predictable very low demand for the thing when they’d done the job let alone if and when Gardner could actually supply the right engines.I’ll go with 39 ‘built’ with predictably expected haphazard accounting for them all because not one of them was actually built from scratch on the line from new as opposed to re sent down the line as after market retrofit bitsas. 
^^^^^^^^
Well it’s stirred things up again after a quiet few weeks on TN. 
gingerfold:
^^^^^^^^
Well it’s stirred things up again after a quiet few weeks on TN.
Dennis is looking to add another trophy to his ‘stirring spoon’ collection!
Or even the coveted ‘golden ladle’ 
Regards Kev.
Lots of good info and evidence there! I think the NTK 350 was the small-cam 350 built in Britain under licence. Robert
ERF-NGC-European:
Lots of good info and evidence there! I think the NTK 350 was the small-cam 350 built in Britain under licence. Robert
We’ve seen numerous examples on other topics where the ability of UK manufacturers to get access to the full range of ■■■■■■■ etc products is often under estimated regardless.Especially when combined with the assembly production model as in the case of Scammell and Guy as opposed to more vertically integrated model of those like AEC.
There was certainly no reason as to why the Big J among other types couldn’t have had up to 400 hp ■■■■■■■ and 13 speed fuller options from the early 1970’s.The only surprise being why the foreign competition was allowed to go running ahead while the Brits remained stuck in an outdated mindset for so long in that regard.As you’ve seen I’ve got my own conspiracy theories on that issue.
ERF-NGC-European:
Lots of good info and evidence there! I think the NTK 350 was the small-cam 350 built in Britain under licence. Robert
it was built at ■■■■■■■ own factory at Shotts, which opened in 1956 / 1957.