Getting closer to minimum wage

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

Rottweiler22:
CM Downton made £5.1 million profit in 2017. They have 1,350 employees, so let’s just say 1000 drivers to make things simple, and these drivers work 50 hours per week. An extra £1 per hour pay rise is another £50,000 per week onto their operating costs. That reduces their profit by £2.6 million per year, and their annual profit would then be halved. A £2 per hour pay rise would mean Downton would be at a £100,000 per year loss.

Stobarts is slightly worse. If they gave all of their drivers a £1 per hour pay rise, they would no longer be profitable.

This is just maths I’ve done on the back of a ■■■ packet, and I haven’t been involved in haulage anywhere near as long as some people on here. However, it seems to me that haulage companies simply cannot afford to pay drivers more. They’d need more profit to do that. They’d have to increase their rates, which they just won’t do. Especially when there are dozens more unscrupulous firms ready to step-in and haul stuff on the cheap.

I know both of these firms have a heavy reliance on agency drivers who cost more (I read an article where CM Downton complained that the “driver shortage” meant they had to use agencies, which pushed-up operating costs). So by my Monty Python logic: The likes of Downtons and Stobarts can’t get enough employed drivers (poor pay and conditions), so they use agencies. The agency drivers cost more, so this pushes-up operating costs. The haulage firm can’t afford to pay their employed drivers more, and can’t attract new ones. So they use agencies. The vicious cycle starts again.

It seems to me it’s the haulage firms who are at fault, constantly trying to undercut each other’s rates. Now the rates are so low, they can’t make enough money to pay their drivers a respectable wage for what the job now entails, and conditions slipped. I don’t blame drivers for not wanting to work for a pittance, and I don’t blame agencies for stepping-in and providing drivers to desperate hauliers.

The only way I can see drivers’ wages increasing is if there’s an industry-wide rate increase (won’t happen, and if it did it would probably increase living costs). Or if hauliers somehow attract more drivers to eventually kick-out the need for expensive agencies, freeing-up more profit to be passed onto drivers’ wages (won’t happen because they can’t attract drivers in the first place). The UK haulage industry to me seems like it’s up a certain creek without a certain paddle, and these wages are here to stay.

I’m guessing that 5.1 million was pre tax. I did a list last year using Downtons and 1000 drivers as an example. Great minds and all that. And I’d add in that if they give drivers a raise, the other 350 staff would want more money as well. And add in employers NIC. So that extra quid will maybe tip them into loss territory.

Haulage firms at fault for undercutting each other. Maybe. You couldld say drivers are at fault for undercutting each other. You see there isn’t a huge difference between a driver and a haulier. I have a boss, they are the customer. I set the rate for my drivers, my customer sets the rate for me. Of course I can negotiate, but the customer has a price they won’t budge on. If you don’t like the hourly/daily pay , you can walk away; if I don’t like the pence per mile, I can walk away.

62

Rottweiler22:
CM Downton made £5.1 million profit in 2017. They have 1,350 employees, so let’s just say 1000 drivers to make things simple, and these drivers work 50 hours per week. An extra £1 per hour pay rise is another £50,000 per week onto their operating costs. That reduces their profit by £2.6 million per year, and their annual profit would then be halved. A £2 per hour pay rise would mean Downton would be at a £100,000 per year loss.

Stobarts is slightly worse. If they gave all of their drivers a £1 per hour pay rise, they would no longer be profitable.
.

Tbh mate them profit figures mean diddly squat. All they really mean is that the company accountants are doing their job properly, i.e. Hiding and or disguising profits to lessen the CO’s next year tax liabilities. I wouldn’t read too much into published figures. I operated my (admittedly insignificant in comparison company) at a loss on paper for years as a means to funding my toys and cocaine and hookers habit :smiley:

63

I’m wondering how firms like Swains manage to get by “hardly ever using agencies” when they are nearer the bottom in pay, like Stobarts & Downtons.
The treatment newbies get there seems pretty good, but whilst that might explain initial recruitment - it doesn’t explain any retention they seem to have no trouble in managing?

64

What is truly depressing is that shortly after this long and well-reasoned debate about the stagnation of wages over the past 10-15 years to the point where pay has not even kept up with inflation, some wooden-headed clown will start a thread about the “driver shortage”.

65

Harry Monk:
What is truly depressing is that shortly after this long and well-reasoned debate about the stagnation of wages over the past 10-15 years to the point where pay has not even kept up with inflation, some wooden-headed clown will start a thread about the “driver shortage”.

No, the part that is really depressing is someone will inevitably suggest that lorry driving isn’t a skill and that any chump can do it, therefore, it doesn’t demand proper wages.

For some reason I always think of the ending to “Shaun of the dead” where the zombies are given menial jobs like supermarket checkout. Perhaps at the end of our zombie apocalypse, they’ll use them to monitor driverless lorries.

66

This is some kind of ■■■■■■■■, Just today I saw a firm in SHipley advertising 40k a year for class one on days, I’m a look in my history and find it.

EDIT before hitting submit, ive not yet the thread just the op and it seems like click bait, get a ■■■■■■■ grib/p ?

67

Captain Caveman 76:

Harry Monk:
What is truly depressing is that shortly after this long and well-reasoned debate about the stagnation of wages over the past 10-15 years to the point where pay has not even kept up with inflation, some wooden-headed clown will start a thread about the “driver shortage”.

No, the part that is really depressing is someone will inevitably suggest that lorry driving isn’t a skill and that any chump can do it, therefore, it doesn’t demand proper wages.

For some reason I always think of the ending to “Shaun of the dead” where the zombies are given menial jobs like supermarket checkout. Perhaps at the end of our zombie apocalypse, they’ll use them to monitor driverless lorries.

Not sure if serious?

Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the past 20 years (which is entirely possible, given your username) then you’d have already noticed that driving a modern truck is no different to driving a car. All you have to do is point and steer them. You don’t even have to change gear anymore and if you forget to brake, well many of them do that for you as well now. Just set that silly ‘intelligent cruise control BS’ running and sit back and relax.

So yes, any chump can do it and that’s been the way for the past decade now.

68

Harry Monk:
What is truly depressing is that shortly after this long and well-reasoned debate about the stagnation of wages over the past 10-15 years to the point where pay has not even kept up with inflation, some wooden-headed clown will start a thread about the “driver shortage”.

Maybe a surplus of ‘hauliers’ combined with a shortage of ‘customers’.Thereby creating an equal surplus demand for drivers by hauliers but with an equal shortage of actual ‘customer’ demand for their services.IE now you see a shortage of drivers.Now you don’t you see a surplus.With actual haulage rates proving the theory.

Without some way of growing the economy and with it customer demand that just leaves the usual choice that higher wages can only be achieved by reducing the supply of haulage and with it jobs for drivers and all the other knock on associated employment.Meaning less consumer spending so even less demand for haulage.All that being added to by the political climate which wants to minimise and deliberately ■■■■■■■ the activeties of the industry to the advantage of other modes of transport.:bulb:

69

Transport is viewed as a commodity and unless you’re hauling something specialized the main consideration is cost, the lower the better.

Let’s be honest about the profession of lorry drivers, if all you do is pick up loaded trailers from a yard and drop them at another yard, or back on bays and open doors or curtains, it’s a pretty simple task, most companies have policies in place that tell you how to secure the load and where to put it so it doesn’t overload any of the axles, so you don’t even have to think about that, it’s an unskilled job except for the driving license you need to do it.

Now, the driving license itself, all it does is say you can drive a larger vehicle than somebody that doesn’t have that license, that’s it. Driving a lorry is a bit more difficult than a car, but not by much, we share the same roads as car drivers from 17yr old kids to 90yr old biddies, they manage to achieve the same as we do, albeit in a smaller vehicle, but the fundamentals remain the same.

I’ve been driving for over 30yrs and it’s always been the same, we are underpaid and overworked, it was the same for my dad and his dad before him, so it’s pretty much always been this way and that sums it up really, if you get a job driving a lorry because of the money, you will be disappointed, that’s how it will always be, you’ll get a living out of it, but nobody is getting rich.

The job advert that prompted this thread is not something many of us would consider, but what if you’ve just passed your test? It would be perfect and that’s what that job is, bottom of the heap, a stepping stone, whatever, but it isn’t a job for life, if you view it that way, it’s not as bad as it seems.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

70

newmercman:
Transport is viewed as a commodity and unless you’re hauling something specialized the main consideration is cost, the lower the better.

Let’s be honest about the profession of lorry drivers, if all you do is pick up loaded trailers from a yard and drop them at another yard, or back on bays and open doors or curtains, it’s a pretty simple task, most companies have policies in place that tell you how to secure the load and where to put it so it doesn’t overload any of the axles, so you don’t even have to think about that, it’s an unskilled job except for the driving license you need to do it.

Now, the driving license itself, all it does is say you can drive a larger vehicle than somebody that doesn’t have that license, that’s it. Driving a lorry is a bit more difficult than a car, but not by much, we share the same roads as car drivers from 17yr old kids to 90yr old biddies, they manage to achieve the same as we do, albeit in a smaller vehicle, but the fundamentals remain the same.

I’ve been driving for over 30yrs and it’s always been the same, we are underpaid and overworked, it was the same for my dad and his dad before him, so it’s pretty much always been this way and that sums it up really, if you get a job driving a lorry because of the money, you will be disappointed, that’s how it will always be, you’ll get a living out of it, but nobody is getting rich.

The job advert that prompted this thread is not something many of us would consider, but what if you’ve just passed your test? It would be perfect and that’s what that job is, bottom of the heap, a stepping stone, whatever, but it isn’t a job for life, if you view it that way, it’s not as bad as it seems.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

Pretty much agree with all of that. I think back in the day driving was a lot harder, I’m old enough to remember the introduction of sleeper cabs just, before that it was a board across the seats, or even just sleep in the seat. Physically it was a far harder job.

71

Customers buy a product, they have somethig tangible in their hand which they can see. Transport is a service and like it or not people do not like paying for a service, there is nothing to see other than the product so the service is soon forgotten. Looking at Ebay and Amazon for a product customers see free delivery and choose that supplier.

At the moment there is a customer looking for a 30% reduction in the price of an essential element of their production costs. They like the product supplied to them which is acknowledgd by them as a better quality product. They also like the availability of that product at their door within a few hours in the quantity and variety of product size needed. However the distributor is facing loose the business pressure if they do not reduce their price. The manufacturer is also applying pressure, although prepared to reduce its ex works price slightly.

I think we can all guess who is supposed to find the major part of the ‘saving’ - the distributor. The warehousing and handling costs remain substantilly the same so they are being told to reduce their transport costs. YOU invest in larger volume load carriers so that more product can be carried, hold the rate per pallet for two pallet deliveries, but only charge US a fixed price based on the normal load capacity for a full load however many pallets that may be.

That naturally will only be round one. The shiny suits will have learnt another ruse at Kindergarten next week.

In a different area I deal with customers who try this lark the simple Bidvest way. Go find someone cheaper, but remember that when you come back it will be on MY terms.

72

It’s often considered a “shortage of drivers prepared to work for minimum wage” as far as I know.

There’s no shortage at higher pay levels, and apparently no shortage of drivers looking for full time contracts of some sort.

How many of us have “gone for a job” only to find the T&Cs let alone Pay was totally rubbish - and pulled their application, hopefully before the “unpaid assessment” managed to add insult to injury?

In a world of shrinking wages - we really need to be shrinking those hours as well.
Think about it: If you’re on £7.50ph then you want a 35 hour week - not a bloody 60-84 hour week, compounding such a low hourly rate!
It don’t matter that the 35 hour week x NMW is so low, that you’ll probably get a working tax credit top-up, if you’ve got kids, or even are the only earner in the household.

At the other end of the scale, if you’re on a decent hourly rate, like at the supermarkets - then you want to pump that overtime @ 1.5x - and coin it in all the way!

73

Rob K:

Captain Caveman 76:

Harry Monk:
What is truly depressing is that shortly after this long and well-reasoned debate about the stagnation of wages over the past 10-15 years to the point where pay has not even kept up with inflation, some wooden-headed clown will start a thread about the “driver shortage”.

No, the part that is really depressing is someone will inevitably suggest that lorry driving isn’t a skill and that any chump can do it, therefore, it doesn’t demand proper wages.

For some reason I always think of the ending to “Shaun of the dead” where the zombies are given menial jobs like supermarket checkout. Perhaps at the end of our zombie apocalypse, they’ll use them to monitor driverless lorries.

Not sure if serious?

Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the past 20 years (which is entirely possible, given your username) then you’d have already noticed that driving a modern truck is no different to driving a car. All you have to do is point and steer them. You don’t even have to change gear anymore and if you forget to brake, well many of them do that for you as well now. Just set that silly ‘intelligent cruise control BS’ running and sit back and relax.

So yes, any chump can do it and that’s been the way for the past decade now.

Apart from the vehicle being 60ft long, weighing 44ton, bending in the middle, presenting a significant risk to other road users and requiring four additional tests before being allowed to drive one, I’d agree with you.

I’ve only been driving lorries for four years so I don’t really remember the days when they required “real skill” to drive them. But if you’re right about them being so easy to drive, then maybe minimum wage IS appropriate for drivers.

74

You have to do it for the love nowadys…you do get more stacking shelf’s :frowning: :frowning: :frowning:

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75

Winseer:
It don’t matter that the 35 hour week x NMW is so low, that you’ll probably get a working tax credit top-up, if you’ve got kids, or even are the only earner in the household.

This here sums up the problem.
The wage is low because if youve got kids then the working tax credit tops it up. What about those of us who choose not to (Or cant) have kids? We’ve to ■■■■ up a ■■■■ poor wage because the system makes it easy for employers to pay rock bottom prices and the tax payer picks up the shortfall.
Those without kids are getting hammered on both ends

76

OLDSALVO:
You have to do it for the love nowadys…you do get more stacking shelf’s :frowning: :frowning: :frowning:

Store Assistant
Aldi - 3,639 reviews -
£10.41 an hour
At Aldi, you’ll never find yourself bored and twiddling your thumbs on the till as a Store Assistant. In fact, time will fly by. You’ll do everything from…
Sponsored - Visited 1 day ago Save Job

Then go stack shelves…

Just expect to get a contract for around 25 hours if your lucky. The rest is made up of overtime where you are expected to get a call and drop everything to come straight in. If you don’t no overtime for a couple of weeks as punishment.

Also its a lot harder work than a lot of driving jobs.

I used to work in retail, not aldi but know people who did. I’ll stick to driving now

77

You cant get an eaiser job than truck driving, just look at the size of half the ■■■■■■■ :grimacing:

78

The-Snowman:

Winseer:
It don’t matter that the 35 hour week x NMW is so low, that you’ll probably get a working tax credit top-up, if you’ve got kids, or even are the only earner in the household.

This here sums up the problem.
The wage is low because if youve got kids then the working tax credit tops it up. What about those of us who choose not to (Or cant) have kids? We’ve to ■■■■ up a ■■■■ poor wage because the system makes it easy for employers to pay rock bottom prices and the tax payer picks up the shortfall.
Those without kids are getting hammered on both ends

Very good point and even the Conservatives have noticed that!

79

The-Snowman:

Winseer:
It don’t matter that the 35 hour week x NMW is so low, that you’ll probably get a working tax credit top-up, if you’ve got kids, or even are the only earner in the household.

This here sums up the problem.
The wage is low because if youve got kids then the working tax credit tops it up. What about those of us who choose not to (Or cant) have kids? We’ve to ■■■■ up a ■■■■ poor wage because the system makes it easy for employers to pay rock bottom prices and the tax payer picks up the shortfall.
Those without kids are getting hammered on both ends

Incorrect,you can’t claim tax credits if the total income of those working (husband & wife) is over 25K a year even at NMW if you and your wife work full time t would be over 25k a year between you.

80

The-Snowman:

Winseer:
It don’t matter that the 35 hour week x NMW is so low, that you’ll probably get a working tax credit top-up, if you’ve got kids, or even are the only earner in the household.

This here sums up the problem.
The wage is low because if youve got kids then the working tax credit tops it up. What about those of us who choose not to (Or cant) have kids? We’ve to ■■■■ up a ■■■■ poor wage because the system makes it easy for employers to pay rock bottom prices and the tax payer picks up the shortfall.
Those without kids are getting hammered on both ends

But… Where ARE these mythical 35 hour weeks @ NMW?? - that’s the point I’m trying to make here!

If a job is NMW - then the employer wants to then run everyone ragged on top of that.

It’s the hours that make this job a killer - not the crappy wages of it…

If they dropped the hours, then the job, even at low pay - would attract those more family-oriented people. Instead, we end up seeing a shortage of drivers prepared to work 60 hour weeks @ NMW. Who can afford it, other than a single bloke with no baggage?