Getting closer to minimum wage

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
221

commonrail:
I always wondered what would happen if you put a humidifier in the same room as a dehumidifier.
Let battle commence :smiley:

That’s a brilliant analogy of what’s actually missing in UK politics.

So we’ve got justified complaints like they are all the bleedin same and they are all out to stitch you up in the form of loads of humidifiers making the house a soggy wet wreck.Then when you get what’s needed,in the form of some decent arguments against the corrupt Lab/Lib/Con establishment,you all moan about that too.The fact is you won’t change anything by not arguing with them.

Unless that is you actually support the status quo of more of the same.

In which case a forum which just moans at people for posting stuff seems like another good analogy of drivers moaning about wages and then moaning about anyone providing solutions.IE defeating the bleedin object. :unamused:

222

I agree,entirely.

223

Yet another thread hijacked by Carryfast and Rjan waffling back and forth about politics.

I have no idea if it’s actually relevant to the original topic because I can’t be bothered yet again to scroll through page after page of copied text and subsequent answers from the pair of them.

224

newmercman:
Carryfast, you know that feeling you get when you read a post from Rjan?

That’s the same feeling the rest of the world has when they read one of your posts [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]

I still haven’t decided whether I like being a part of this diabolical duo, the perceived terrible twins of Trucknet :laughing:

225

tmcassett:
Yet another thread hijacked by Carryfast and Rjan waffling back and forth about politics.

I have no idea if it’s actually relevant to the original topic because I can’t be bothered yet again to scroll through page after page of copied text and subsequent answers from the pair of them.

You think that you can fix the wage problems in the industry without fixing the political environment that’s causing them ?.

Then your contribution is to just moan about anyone posting any relevant stuff concerning the issue on a forum.Although you don’t even know what you’re moaning about anyway because you haven’t even bothered to read the stuff being argued about.As I said it sort of defeats the object of a forum if no one bothers to post anything on it because they don’t want to offend the people who actually don’t want to see anything posted on it at least if they don’t agree. :confused:

While if it wasn’t relevant to the topic then the pre mod could have just deleted the post.Although there’s not much point in a topic full of posts moaning about wages and others moaning that there’s nothing that can or should be done about it.Or even if the solutions provided in many cases ( work in a factory or a warehouse,or McDonalds or work harder/etc etc etc are worse than the problem.( See the post by nmm would rather work for peanuts driving a truck for 12 hours than work 8 hours in a factory. ) :unamused:

226

tmcassett:
Yet another thread hijacked by Carryfast and Rjan waffling back and forth about politics.

I have no idea if it’s actually relevant to the original topic because I can’t be bothered yet again to scroll through page after page of copied text and subsequent answers from the pair of them.

You think that you can fix the wage problems in the industry without fixing the political environment that’s causing them ?.

Then your contribution is to just moan about anyone posting any relevant stuff concerning the issue on a forum.Although you don’t even know what you’re moaning about anyway because you haven’t even bothered to read the stuff being argued about.As I said it sort of defeats the object of a forum if no one bothers to post anything on it because they don’t want to offend the people who actually don’t want to see anything posted on it at least if they don’t agree. :confused:

While if it wasn’t relevant to the topic then the pre mod could have just deleted the post.Although there’s not much point in a topic full of posts moaning about wages and others moaning that there’s nothing that can or should be done about it.Or even if the solutions provided in many cases ( work in a factory or a warehouse,or McDonalds or work harder/etc etc etc are worse than the problem.( See the post by nmm would rather work for peanuts driving a truck for 12 hours than work 8 hours in a factory. ) :unamused:

227

Rjan:
I still haven’t decided whether I like being a part of this diabolical duo, :laughing:

That’s because in typical Socialist fashion your ideas are so contradictory that you don’t know whether you’re on the side of the employers or the workers or both at the same time. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

228

Carryfast:

tmcassett:
Yet another thread hijacked by Carryfast and Rjan waffling back and forth about politics.

I have no idea if it’s actually relevant to the original topic because I can’t be bothered yet again to scroll through page after page of copied text and subsequent answers from the pair of them.

You think that you can fix the wage problems in the industry without fixing the political environment that’s causing them ?.

Then your contribution is to just moan about anyone posting any relevant stuff concerning the issue on a forum.Although you don’t even know what you’re moaning about anyway because you haven’t even bothered to read the stuff being argued about.As I said it sort of defeats the object of a forum if no one bothers to post anything on it because they don’t want to offend the people who actually don’t want to see anything posted on it at least if they don’t agree. :confused:

While if it wasn’t relevant to the topic then the pre mod could have just deleted the post.Although there’s not much point in a topic full of posts moaning about wages and others moaning that there’s nothing that can or should be done about it.Or even if the solutions provided in many cases ( work in a factory or a warehouse,or McDonalds or work harder/etc etc etc are worse than the problem.( See the post by nmm would rather work for peanuts driving a truck for 12 hours than work 8 hours in a factory. ) :unamused:

Brevity, dear heart, brevity . That’s what people would like to see, rather than pages and pages of the same argument.

229

Carryfast:

Rjan:
I blamed bosses for having created such a culture of conflict that workers couldn’t be reasoned with.

Your words were ‘’ the workers basically refused to pay a single penny of the increased oil cost flexed their muscle to make it so which is why inflation took off ‘’.

And I stand by that as a fair explanation of the situation, but I also said a lot more than that, including that I hardly blamed workers who’d had to fight tooth and nail for the pay they had, for not allowing it to be forced down which, if oil prices dropped 6 months later, they’d have to fight all over again to get their pay back up. British bosses, then and now, are inveterate opportunists with a sense of entitlement.

Then to add insult to injury going on to make the case for how moderate the German unions were.

No I made the case for how moderate German management were (comparatively speaking, of course).

Yes because they could afford to be with their better wages to start with among other sweeteners they’d been given in the post war sell out of the Brits.

That’s not true, they didn’t have better wages to start with. It was only in the 1970s and since that Germany has come to be seen as having a better economy - and only modestly so in the scheme of things.

As for the rest it’s about as credible as what you’ve said there.When what you’re really saying is look after the chosen few rail transport elite and zb everyone else.

I haven’t said that though. That’s your argument, that lorry drivers are already on ■■■■ pay, and just one modest productivity improvement and we’ll be able to destroy the rail industry and take all their work through undercutting - that’s the essence of your argument.

As for truck driver solidarity that’s a bit hypocritical bearing in mind the way in which ASLEF cut their RMT guard counterparts loose to get a good deal for themselves.

Indeed, but I’m not defending the rail industry or its members in general. I’m talking about one thing, productivity - the same thing as we were talking about last time - and the question of whether trucking can even approach the efficiency of rail. The railwaymen don’t have good pay and conditions because of increases in rail productivity though - they have it because for the most part they do stand together to demand decent wages and conditions.

230

tmcassett:
Yet another thread hijacked by Carryfast and Rjan waffling back and forth about politics.

I have no idea if it’s actually relevant to the original topic because I can’t be bothered yet again to scroll through page after page of copied text and subsequent answers from the pair of them.

If wages aren’t political then I don’t know what is! :laughing:

231

albion:

Carryfast:
[…]

Brevity, dear heart, brevity . That’s what people would like to see, rather than pages and pages of the same argument.

Brevity is the holy grail, because when you can make an argument in a one-liner, it means the person you’re talking to already agrees with you, and you’re just drawing their attention to an argument they already know. Usually, people don’t already agree though.

232

Rjan:
. British bosses, then and now, are inveterate opportunists with a sense of entitlement.

Ahem, some. Some British bosses. We do vary somewhat. If I was an opportunist I wouldn’t have said let’s do 3% pay rise thus year, I know if I’d said 2.5% they’d have gone with that. As for entitlement :unamused:

233

albion:

Rjan:
. British bosses, then and now, are inveterate opportunists with a sense of entitlement.

Ahem, some. Some British bosses. We do vary somewhat. If I was an opportunist I wouldn’t have said let’s do 3% pay rise thus year, I know if I’d said 2.5% they’d have gone with that. As for entitlement :unamused:

Present company excepted, of course. :wink:

But if you want a feel of industrial relations in the 60s and 70s, consider this speech by Barbara Castle in Parliament in 1969: api.parliament.uk/historic-hans … 03_HOC_257

Barbara Castle:
I repeat that this means, first and foremost, a change of attitude by management. … How can there be harmony on the shop floor when, in some companies, unions cannot get proper access through their officials, and shop stewards are barely tolerated.

How can strikes be avoided when disputes procedures are vague or intolerably long-drawn out; or, worse still, when management suddenly introduces a change in working practices without proper consultation, and then tells its workers they must “go through procedure” if they want to protest? Good procedure is a way of reaching agreement, not a court of appeal. … Industrial relations are about people, and people today will not tolerate being treated as less important even than the machines they mind.

The Opposition [the Tory party] are still trying to hedge the unions in. … All this is a carry-over from those 19th century days and reflects the view, which they barely attempt to disguise, that trade unions are already too strong and that the time has come to curb their bargaining power.

I’m sure you are a responsible employer, but consider some of the bigger players in the industry like Stobarts - what is their attitude to unions and unionisation? No different from bosses in the 60s I’ll bet. And their attitudes are the rule rather than the exception - in unionised workplaces, those bad attitudes amongst management may be more subtle, but they are still present.

234

You are missing the biggest factor in the cause of low pay, agencies. Every penny of the of the difference between their sales and purchase ledgers would be going on wages if they didn’t exist. They’re parasites, plain and simple.

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235

newmercman:
You are missing the biggest factor in the cause of low pay, agencies. Every penny of the of the difference between their sales and purchase ledgers would be going on wages if they didn’t exist. They’re parasites, plain and simple.

Agreed, the underlying cause is that Britain has some of the weakest employment protections in Europe, as well as some of the weakest tax enforcement. Whatever it costs the employers for agencies, it’s offset by tax dodging and the fact that it means they can hire and fire at will and can tolerate the churn in the labour force that they create with poor conditions. Another thing which - if I put my Labour party supporters hat on again - Labour has promised to tackle.

236

Unfortunately I’m old enough to remember the 70s.

And I don’t like unions. Didn’t like them when I was an employee, don’t Luke them now. Absolutely pointless in my place.

237

If Labour where genuinely going to tackle the agencies, outlaw zero hour contracts and generally live up to their name and their reason for being, I would consider putting an X in their box on election day. I’m a fan of small government, which labour are not, but taking some of the power away from big business would be a great start to getting the politicians back to working for the people, rather than the dynasties they currently answer to. There’s a better chance of a loony lefty standing up for their principles than a right winger.

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238

albion:
Unfortunately I’m old enough to remember the 70s.

And I don’t like unions. Didn’t like them when I was an employee, don’t Luke them now. Absolutely pointless in my place.

Wonder how many employers feel the same… Don’t like unions and pointless at my business.

You may be the best employer in the world. And you might be the highest payer in the industry. But when something happens you will throw your employee under the bus just like every other business.

You have previously posted about how one employee took you to an employment tribunal. And won. That doesn’t sound like the best place to work to me…

A good employer has nothing to fear from unions. And they certainly don’t see them as ‘pointless’.

Rather than repeatedly telling us about how much your highest grossing driver earnt last year… How about telling us how you supported your weakest driver. You have also told us you don’t bother to pay sick pay. Again sounds delightful.

Frankly, I’m sure you are a good employer… Compared to all the really rubbish ones. But I don’t like people who blow their own trumpet too much. A wage of under £50k is not amazing. My partner earns far more than that and is younger than me. The level of self-promotion is similar to that I’d expect from Donald Trump. And it’s nauseating.

239

albion:
Unfortunately I’m old enough to remember the 70s.

And I don’t like unions. Didn’t like them when I was an employee, don’t Luke them now. Absolutely pointless in my place.

Ahem,some unions! I agree on your situation. :grimacing:

240

newmercman:
You are missing the biggest factor in the cause of low pay, agencies. Every penny of the of the difference between their sales and purchase ledgers would be going on wages if they didn’t exist. They’re parasites, plain and simple.

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I’ve looked hard for something to disagree with there…I can’t find anything!