Fed up! Agency paye/ltd?

[chicane]

I really don’t get this agency/full-time driver ■■■■■■■■, we’re all drivers FFS. There are lousy companies as well as rubbish agencies, what we as drivers have to do is not ■■■■■ among ourselves or go on strike but be prepared to dump the crap companies/agencies and go elsewhere.

Personally I like the flexibility of agency and in the last 3 yrs I haven’t seen the new year slow down. In the current year I’ll probably clock up around 7 months full-time and believe me I was needing the 6 day xmas break.

I could probably earn more as a company driver but I’d have absolutely no say over when I worked, I’ve been filling shifts at the same company for nearly 5yrs now so know pretty much all the runs and when they start/finish so I know which I want to take and which to avoid if there’s a choice.

If I had kids and a mortgage then I’d go full-time but I own my house, vehicles and don’t smoke or drink so a guaranteed regular income from driving isn’t essential. I want to the most money for the easiest, fewest hours I can get, to hell with maxing my hours on near minimum wage just to have a decent ‘top line’.

[205]

You ARE picking the wrong time of year to start out on agency work, best you hang on to you job for 2 or 3 more months and then make the jump

[conor]

busteredwards:
Interesting theory, but utter nonsense. I’v driven trucks for the last 26 years, 18 of those at BP oil, now working a nice clean number at Asda which pays well.

So a one trick pony who has gone from doing the same thing for 3/4 of their career onto fridge work where you don’t even load/unload yourself which is about as easy as it gets other than turning up, dropping one trailer and picking up another.

Secondly, I’d put my driving abilities up against yours any time,

I’ve done almost everything except car transporters, concrete mixers and conventional skips although I have done hook loaders. I’ve towed loads 12ft wide, 100ft long, 100 tonnes. All you’ve done is reverse a tanker up to a loading point, waited whilst someone loaded it for you, drove it to a point, hooked up your hoses, pumped it out (yes I have done tankers including self loading/discharging), drive back to base for 18 years. You’ve never had to worry about weight because its all calculated for you and you’ve never been presented with 20 odd different sized packs of stuff of all weights and had to work out how to put it on a curtainsider and keep all the axles right.

You’d be stuffed on general haulage because quite frankly you don’t have the first clue where to begin because someone has always taken care of the loading for you. I would say that you probably would have trouble finding places as well as I expect that BP and Asda have always given you route plans…

[calsdad]

the maoster:

samledger1212:
Thing is with agency is u can be let down a hr before you start your shift then u don’t earn anything that’s the only problem with agency

It’s not the only problem mate, problems abound with these “pick 'em up and put 'em down” type of agencies.

I reckon that the writing is on the wall as far as employers perceptions of agencies exist; we’re all aware of the ongoing HMRC witch hunt re self employed/Ltd Co drivers so what I forsee happening is that agencies will soon only be able to employ people on a PAYE basis. This will mean that the agencies will have to up their charging rates by around £4 to £5 per hour in order to cover their new outgoings. The knock on effect of this will be that the major transport players who rely so heavily on agency staff will have to bite the bullet and employ large numbers of their own staff.

I forsee that within a year, or two at most that many agencies will thus disappear and the ones that survive will resemble the ones from way back when they existed solely to provide holiday and sick cover staff, and NOT to provide the majority of the workforce at any one place.

To balance this here’s what i reckon, after all the world is made up of conflicting opinions.

HMRC would love to get more tax income by getting both employers and drivers to pay more. This issue is a lot bigger than a few hgv drivers and is economy wide. What was the BBC reporting for NHS agency payments a few days ago, cant remember exacly but it was billions…

The big players around me DHL KN ND Stobart and all the supermarkets all rely on the agency model to keep their costs down.

So government actually give HMRC the man power (go against spending cuts) and convince some of the biggest companies in the economy to take on additional costs. Then they stop the NHS from going to agencies and miss all the performance targets. Big companies pass on raised costs of employment to customers with higher till prices. Inflation goes up, so interest rates have to rise. Economy is teetering as it is, higher interest rates will probably bring back recession. Big companies lay off all the newly employed staff. tax revenues fall.

For me the current situation is caused by as usual the hmrc failing to keep up with changes in the economy. Transport has been under pressure to reduce cost for years. Flexible workforce is one way of doing this. Lets not argue it isn’t DHL KN ND etc are massive companies who pay accountants big money to make sure they run at the lowest cost so they can be cheapest. While seasonal peak exists flexible workforce will always be cheaper. It’s the same in other industries. Hmrc should have altered the system to take account of this. They haven’t and are missing out. Can they solve this by going after !!! people…

Lets face it they tried to sort it with IR35 and made a complete mess of it. Agency legislation is little better.

For those interested this is a report on the problem which gives a lot of info - allbeit proper boring some might find it interesting. Also gives my opinion a bit of source and background other than a bloke said down the pub in a waiting room etc. Hope the link doesn’t cause a problem - after all it is from the people who pretend to run the country.

publications.parliament.uk/p … 60/160.pdf

[calsdad]

I must have had too much Xmas spirit as I’m finding myself agreeing with Conor.

Most of the employed drivers who come on here to have a go at us agency scum wouldn’t last five minutes doing what we do.

They go to work drive the same unit with the same size trailer and the same load. They go to the same places fill in the same paper work and work to consistent HS rules.

Being an agency driver (good one who gets year round work) takes development of a lot of skills. The main one being the ability to cope with a lot of uncertainty and deal with it. Lots of employed drivers hide in steady jobs because they couldn’t deal with the stress…

[terry_t]

the maoster:
what I forsee happening is that agencies will soon only be able to employ people on a PAYE basis.

I forsee that within a year, or two at most that many agencies will thus disappear and the ones that survive will resemble the ones from way back when they existed solely to provide holiday and sick cover staff, and NOT to provide the majority of the workforce at any one place.

Good.

[tango_boy]

calsdad:
I must have had too much Xmas spirit as I’m finding myself agreeing with Conor.

Most of the employed drivers who come on here to have a go at us agency scum wouldn’t last five minutes doing what we do.

They go to work drive the same unit with the same size trailer and the same load. They go to the same places fill in the same paper work and work to consistent HS rules.

Being an agency driver (good one who gets year round work) takes development of a lot of skills. The main one being the ability to cope with a lot of uncertainty and deal with it. Lots of employed drivers hide in steady jobs because they couldn’t deal with the stress…

Ha Ha is it April 1st all ready

[busteredwards]

Conor:
You’d be stuffed on general haulage because quite frankly you don’t have the first clue where to begin because someone has always taken care of the loading for you. I would say that you probably would have trouble finding places as well as I expect that BP and Asda have always given you route plans…

I suppose now would be a good time to tell you that when I took redundancy from BP, I spent a few years on general haulage (John Mitchells, Grangemouth) so yet another theory of yours is out the window. Maybe if you knew more about a person, you’d be better qualified to speculate on their experience & abilities, otherwise you’re just clutching at straws with your guesswork. In other words, you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about as far as my career is concerned!

Tankers, not once was a tanker loaded or discharged for me at BP. Nor were route plans issues, so try getting the facts right before posting.

I can picture you now, sitting at your keyboard, red in the face & seething cos you’re unable to cut it out there, annoyed because someone can make a career out of being a full time driver & you’re still waiting for the agency to call with next weeks ‘assignment’.

Having tried it, I’d say general haulage is a mugs game, £8/9 an hour…you’re welcome to it fella…enjoy! If there’s anything else you need to know about my job, feel free to ask, & I’ll give you the real story, save you dreaming up another post.

[busteredwards]

[quote Conor]
Place I’m at pays a salary of £41,500 for Class 1 on days based on a 56hr week plus bonuses for various things (got £50 in October which is their busiest month just for doing my job and I’m only on agency there), generous company pension, free shares, a free kitchen at 25 years service and this week all the staff at the company are able to go to a company Xmas do where all the drinks are free, they’ll put you up in a hotel or pay for a taxi there and back even though for most its a 70 mile round trip and for some its a 70 mile each way journey - something which apparently costs the company millions. Job is easy, you’re given loads of time to do a run, wagons are washed at the end of every shift which means most get washed twice a day. Completing day deliveries to stores within the targets set is put above how much it costs to do. However just because targets are set doesn’t mean they run you stupid. Delivery targets for stores are 4 hour windows so they’ll be either an 8am-12pm, 10am-2pm or 12pm to 4pm. We’re expected to take half an hour to get our trailer and do our checks at the start of a shift. They expect you to have at least 15 minutes under a trailer when you change them to do your checks. A run from Howden to Lockerbie on nights for a trailer swap and back is booked as a 10hr 45 minute run even though it can be done in far less to the point if the A66 is shut and you need to do an extra 40 miles each way to get to the Lockerbie changeover you can do it in the time they give you with about 10 minutes spare without rushing. Driving like your arse is on fire, literally hooking up and going at either end its possible to do it in 9hrs so 10hrs 45m gives plenty of leeway. If you have to go over the total time calculated then as long as you have a good reason like a hold up for roadworks or accident or breakdown they’re not bothered.

As you may deduce from the free kitchen for 25 years service that even though they have over 100 lorries and several hundred trailers that they’re not a transport company but a kitchen manufacturer. Sadly because its a good job its also a dead mans shoes job.

The really good money, perks and conditions are with companies that have lorries but don’t make their money from transport.

I’d been looking at maybe earning up to 20ish which is a very good wage to me

I earn that and hardly any weeks I do 5 days a week, usually its three or four on average, some weeks as low as 1. I’m on £10.50/hr and £10/hr is what you want to try and get for Class 1.

[quote Conor]
So this is what your big balls make for you is it?? A tenner an hour! Sounds to me like you would love to get a job at that place, £41000 for their own full timers & you’re raking in £20000, sound like this agency lark is the way to go, hahaha.

Come back when you’ve had a real job sonny, then you can play with the big boys, until then, I don’t think you could lace my boots, you’re a joke fella.

[winseer]

wheelyb:
Cheers winseer, I’m a grafter and try to get as many hours as poss, but when the company is holding you back, the end weekly pay is disheartening.

Can I sign up to more than one agency as paye?
If so, how would I keep them both happy with accepting work? If they both need me for that day or week?

What area are you looking for agencies to give you work in?

Around my way, there’s very little work in the town where I live. 10 miles further afield though, finds me at Dartford, Sittingbourne, or Maidstone (No “north” 'cos that’s Grain, which is now wound down from the BP days)

If you’re prepared to commute 10 miles on a regular basis - that’ll open up a lot of possibilities for you, assuming you’re not actually in the middle of nowhere…

There’s no rule about signing up with multiple agencies - I signed up with 9 altogether. I got bitty work from 4 of them, none at all from 4 of them, and then regular work from the 9th I signed up with - SMS based in Aylesford, with work at the local aylesford depots, and Mail couriers a bit further afield as well. If I said that over the past Christmas periods 2011-2014 that I spent with SMS - They put me into Yodel, Fedex Tunbridge Wells, Royal Mail, and Fedex Sittingbourne respectively at this time of the year. I was also doing a lot of odd shifts at Brakes Aylesford as well, which is where I’ve now taken a full time job.

Extrastaff gave me shifts at Morrisons, and offered me Lehnam Storage which I declined (bad experience there from years ago) and Pallet work which I don’t think much of either. Work there quickly petered out after I’d turned down a few shifts needless to say.

Rapier had me working around London Boots deliveries out of Surrey Quays depot, but ripped me off with a different pay rate actually paid to what was agreed verbally. I had no comeback of course, as I didn’t have the rates per each job actually in writing. Lesson learned.

Manpower offered me a couple of shifts in Oxford street, but I declined on the basis I was only there for Royal Mail work. I never heard from them again. I think that might have been because RM closed the door firmly behind me when I left there in 2010 with a redundancy package.

Blue Arrow put me into Langdons, Dover for odd shifts, and also used to give me week blocks of work at places that DHL were running. I also got a week at Whirlpool washing machines, right next door to where I work now. The work wasn’t regular enough for me to profit from it though, but at least my income crashed so much working here that I ended up qualifying for tax credits…

The other four blighters never gave me a single shift, like Manpower. “Agency Driver Network” had me sign up, and then told me after I’d jumped through all the hoops that “We only do Umbrella”. I insisted upon PAYE, and heard from them just the once: An offer of a shift @ Iceland Harlow… I asked for an email comfirming the hourly rate as PAYE - and I never heard form them again. A similar story occured with “The Recruit Group” - Yeh. What a load of umbrella fiddle ■■■■■■■■ THAT one turned out to be as well! They DID offer a PAYE option, but it was at a lower hourly rate than the headline rate aleady slightly lower than other agencies were offering (£9.50ph to the £10ph of others), thus actually representing working for less in real terms. PLENTY of work there though of course - since what you lose is compounded by this backdoor “lower paye rate” that many don’t realize until it’s too late.

Driver Hire wanted me to sign up for umbrella as well - I walked away.
Delta Driver - wanted me to give THEM some cash up front for “training” WTF? If I’m not qualified with my clean licence of near 25 years standing - then I’m not qualified ever.
I think they wanted me to pay to put myself through a HIAB and MOFFET course, for which I was promised “unlimited amounts of shifts once qualified”.

Shame they couldn’t just offer me a full time job that would train me up if I was interested…

I would be wary of ANY agency that expects the money to flow the wrong way at any point…

[busteredwards]

Winseer:
I was also doing a lot of odd shifts at Brakes Aylesford as well, which is where I’ve now taken a full time job.

Insecurities kicked in then?? Maybe you could explain to Conor why you thought giving up the privilege of being an agency driver was a good move.

[winseer]

busteredwards:

Winseer:
I was also doing a lot of odd shifts at Brakes Aylesford as well, which is where I’ve now taken a full time job.

Insecurities kicked in then?? Maybe you could explain to Conor why you thought giving up the privilege of being an agency driver was a good move.

Because the basic pay is over £30k and I’ve kissed goodbye to 50+ hour weeks everywhere else in the process. Add that to the fact that I’ve already been working there a lot over the past year, 'cos I prefer it to Downtons, Fedex, after all the poncing about I’ve been put through at those places over the past 15 months. I could never get onto parity pay at RM over Christmas either, so have kinda wiped my feet of that as well.

[chicane]

Winseer gets the prize for best answer giving the reasons for full-time over agency. I may do the same later this year but would be putting my CV into Fedex, (think it depends which hub/depot you work out of)

[robroy]

Conor:

busteredwards:

Winseer:
The only reason people take full time jobs that pay less than at agency - is “insecurity”.

The ‘only’ reason? You’re deluded if you believe that!

I’v been in full time employment for long & weary, & can’t say that I’m insecure enough to want to sign up to these agencies. Pretty sure I’d be more ‘insecure’ wondering if I’d be getting a weeks work next week, or if I’ll be earning nothing.

You’ve just proved what he said was right. You’re so insecure in your life, either in your ability as a driver, financially, mentally or all of the aforementioned that you feel you need the security of a regular weekly wage from full time permanent employment.

For those of us with bigger balls who feel secure in our abilities as a driver and have secure finances we are more willing to take a chance and earn more money per hour but without the certainty of permanent employment.

…Conor mate you crack me up buddy, you really do.

Your conceit and pomposity knows no bounds
I really would like to think you are on a wind up, having a chuckle, but you actually ARE for real.

Ok, you appear to have found a cushy, and well paid number, well done and good luck to you, seriously, it sounds good.
However, do you really believe that your situation is typical of agency employment?.
You do come across on here as an educated kind of guy, so in reality I doubt that you do think that
. So why come on here all the time as the self appointed spokesman for all agencies, and telling us scumbag full timers where we are going wrong.
I think it’s maybe a build up of you taking the past full time v agency (BANTER ) thing on here a bit too seriously.

You, and we, all know that the majority of agencies are the scourge of the Haulage industry.
For every agency driver in an untypical situation similar to yours, on a good number with presumably a good agency, there are 20 others ■■■■■■ ed about and abused on a regular basis, and no, they are NOT all drivers at the low calibre end either.

The o/p has said the agencies have wasted his job to the point where the full time guys are getting what is left at the bottom of the agency’s barell. If I know you your take on that will be down to lazy full time drivers, in your inimitable generalising and patronising point of view.

You call full time drivers insecure, well I am a full time driver, but I am certainly not so insecure as to get in the ■■■■■■■ contest you have instigated in your other ‘Classic Conor’ post, by listing every type of varied experience in Transport you have had …, even though if I was so immature to partake in it you may find I would probably beat you hands down, but let’s not go there.

So if agency suits you… sat there with your ‘big balls’ , fair do.s, terrific, great, fantastic, …but don’t sit there pontificating over us, in your bizarre view, ‘‘lowly insecure full time employed drivers’’ … trying to convince us (not to mention yourself) that the Agency is the saviour of all things haulage and transport, we BOTH know they aint!
Happy new year.

[chicane]

Its simple economics really, have mostly been sitting in the canteen twiddling my thumbs for the last couple of weeks so had time to work it out.

The full-timers get paid a fixed salary, agency driver gets paid for 8hrs plus at a higher ‘casual’ rate, if you have a run that lasts/costs more than the agency driver’s 8hrs minimum (+45min break) then it’s more cost effective to give the full-timer the longer run and stick the agency bod on the shorter ‘cushy’ run.

If you consider that the company salary is paid for 50hrs/wk (which they don’t work) + bonuses and the agency bod paid for min 5x8=40 then going full-time would be better financially but you’d be sacrificing being able to suit yourself instead company. Everyone’s circumstances are different but from what I’ve seen locally in the last few months company rates have gone up to match (in a couple of places exceed) agency pay, one company has almost doubled their rate, admittedly from not much above NMW. So the attraction of the higher agency rate is disappearing, and it’s becoming more about lifestyle.

[robroy]

chicane:
Its simple economics really, have mostly been sitting in the canteen twiddling my thumbs for the last couple of weeks so had time to work it out.

The full-timers get paid a fixed salary, agency driver gets paid for 8hrs plus at a higher ‘casual’ rate, if you have a run that lasts/costs more than the agency driver’s 8hrs minimum (+45min break) then it’s more cost effective to give the full-timer the longer run and stick the agency bod on the shorter ‘cushy’ run.

If you consider that the company salary is paid for 50hrs/wk (which they don’t work) + bonuses and the agency bod paid for min 5x8=40 then going full-time would be better financially but you’d be sacrificing being able to suit yourself instead company. Everyone’s circumstances are different but from what I’ve seen locally in the last few months company rates have gone up to match (in a couple of places exceed) agency pay, one company has almost doubled their rate, admittedly from not much above NMW. So the attraction of the higher agency rate is disappearing, and it’s becoming more about lifestyle.

Not all full time is salary, many are on standard rate plus overtime.
In my area where there is no shortage of drivers, there is not a great difference between agency and some of the co’s in the area full timer’s rate, according to a couple of agency driver friends.

[wirksworth_rod]

robroy:

Conor:

busteredwards:

Winseer:
The only reason people take full time jobs that pay less than at agency - is “insecurity”.

The ‘only’ reason? You’re deluded if you believe that!

I’v been in full time employment for long & weary, & can’t say that I’m insecure enough to want to sign up to these agencies. Pretty sure I’d be more ‘insecure’ wondering if I’d be getting a weeks work next week, or if I’ll be earning nothing.

You’ve just proved what he said was right. You’re so insecure in your life, either in your ability as a driver, financially, mentally or all of the aforementioned that you feel you need the security of a regular weekly wage from full time permanent employment.

For those of us with bigger balls who feel secure in our abilities as a driver and have secure finances we are more willing to take a chance and earn more money per hour but without the certainty of permanent employment.

…Conor mate you crack me up buddy, you really do.

Your conceit and pomposity knows no bounds
I really would like to think you are on a wind up, having a chuckle, but you actually ARE for real.

Ok, you appear to have found a cushy, and well paid number, well done and good luck to you, seriously, it sounds good.
However, do you really believe that your situation is typical of agency employment?.
You do come across on here as an educated kind of guy, so in reality I doubt that you do think that
. So why come on here all the time as the self appointed spokesman for all agencies, and telling us scumbag full timers where we are going wrong.
I think it’s maybe a build up of you taking the past full time v agency (BANTER ) thing on here a bit too seriously.

You, and we, all know that the majority of agencies are the scourge of the Haulage industry.
For every agency driver in an untypical situation similar to yours, on a good number with presumably a good agency, there are 20 others [zb] ed about and abused on a regular basis, and no, they are NOT all drivers at the low calibre end either.

The o/p has said the agencies have wasted his job to the point where the full time guys are getting what is left at the bottom of the agency’s barell. If I know you your take on that will be down to lazy full time drivers, in your inimitable generalising and patronising point of view.

You call full time drivers insecure, well I am a full time driver, but I am certainly not so insecure as to get in the ■■■■■■■ contest you have instigated in your other ‘Classic Conor’ post, by listing every type of varied experience in Transport you have had …, even though if I was so immature to partake in it you may find I would probably beat you hands down, but let’s not go there.

So if agency suits you… sat there with your ‘big balls’ , fair do.s, terrific, great, fantastic, …but don’t sit there pontificating over us, in your bizarre view, ‘‘lowly insecure full time employed drivers’’ … trying to convince us (not to mention yourself) that the Agency is the saviour of all things haulage and transport, we BOTH know they aint!
Happy new year.

come on rob get of that fence and tell him what you relly think happy new year

[evil8beezle]

wirksworth rod:
come on rob get of that fence and tell him what you relly think happy new year

He’s clearly hurt by recent comments and turning into a bit of a ■■■■■!

[robroy]

Yeh cheers Rod, Happy new year to you as well mate.
It’s just Conor coming on here talking down to everybody …as usual , trying to convince us of his utopian ideas of working for an agency, which tends to get on my ■■■■ a bit.
As I said he has a good number, and it suits him, same as full time employment suits us.
The industry is in a mess in terms of conditions, driver’s welfare and all the rest of it.
In my opinion agencies are partly to blame for a lot of the ■■■■ in the job, because of the power they have over drivers… that they did not initially have, but developed over the years since they got off the ground in the 80s.

Full time employment is not perfect by any means, but neither is agency employment, despite Conor’s efforts to convince us so.
It is all about what suits each individual that is what I was getting at.

[robroy]

Evil8Beezle:

wirksworth rod:
come on rob get of that fence and tell him what you relly think happy new year

He’s clearly hurt by recent comments and turning into a bit of a ■■■■■!

…Yeh, meow

btw. Which comments would they be?..just curious.