Eu referendum whats your vote

[carryfast]

ramone:

Carryfast:
As I remember it working in direct competition with German workers at Faun for example we made a better product for a lower price and utilising less investment to do it.The workers at Jaguar/Rover/Triumph and Ford/Vauxhall UK did the same v their German rivals.Everything which happened after that was deliberately meant to happen in making Germany top dog in Europe for geopolitical reasons.

So here we are with weakened unions,under employment of the workforce with too few workers doing too many hours and too much work and wages gone through the floor relative to prices and workers also being exploited by being expected to do more than one trade for one wage.

IE those strikes weren’t ever just for the the fun of it.As I said first we’re allied in Brexit.Then we can have the real anti free markets Labour v race to the bottom Tory fight the country needs after we’ve got it with no muddying of the waters by the German banker elites rushing to the Tories aid.

The real naive fools are those who think that more German rule is the answer to the working class struggle.Or for that matter the Tory Federalists,wanting to maintain their insurance policy, of Brit jobs for European workers,so as to corrupt the Brit labour market.Thereby wrecking the country’s prosperity.The fact that we’ve lost people like Hoey and Batten to be replaced by yet more Blairite Starmer policy and Tory BoJo,on either side,doesn’t look good in that regard.Prepare for more of the same.

Well, the mid 70s brought us utter crap from BL ,with the work force on strike on a daily basis . The quality was dire Rover SD1 Austin Allegros ,Austin Princess , Triumph Toledo ,Morris Marina , rust buckets that were poorly put together and the unions werent helping . Clarkson did a documentary on BL and one contributor said that a brand new car arrived at their dealership with different coloured door cards ie no two were the same . Now you cant blame that on management , just a workforce ( not all) that didnt give a toss . The Ford and Vauxhall plants werent any better strike wise , and you cant honestly say that BLs offerings were in the same league as any of the Germans quality wise

Firstly having owned and ran and still run BL products ( Triumph and Jaguar ) and German ( BMW and Cologne Ford ) the quality issue is typical Tory bs with the Brit products being superior in every regard for the equivalent price.Unsurprisingly being the same Tories who took us into the EU.

Yes the workforce was often on strike during the 1970’s in large part because they were stabbed in the back.By a so called Labour government imposing austerity,in the form of below inflation wage increases,to cure oil price led inflation while we were sitting on a sea of the stuff.While German workers laughed.

So getting back to the reality of 1972,which is what the argument is all about,we’ve got Rover 3500/3500S,Triumph 2.5,Jag XJ6/12 and Essex Ford 3.0 Granada.

Against which we’ve got BMW E3 and Merc.In which case a Merc 350 was around 3 times the price of the Rover 3500 and the BMW E3 2.5 was a lot more expensive than a 4.2 XJ6 and a 3.0 more expensive than an XJ12.As for comparing 3.0 Granada or 2.5 Triumph prices don’t even go there.Bearing in mind that in most cases the Merc’s and the BMW’s suspension was more rudimentary than either that of the Rover let alone the Jag’s more like the far cheaper Triumph’s.While even the Ford could do front a wishbone front end.

As for what happened later yes we know instead of a Triumph 4.5 PI we closed Triumph and got the ugly live axle 3500 SD1 and instead of a Granada 5.0 V8 we got the Cologne 2.8 for a higher price and instead of a 6 litre XJ12 we stayed with the 5.3 while Merc went for the 560.While asking the workforce to work harder for less pay.Having also wiped out Austin Morris with fwd crap long before that.Then the government finished the job of handing over the country to the Germans and blamed the workers.

Not much point in getting the country back from the EU if we’re just going to insult our fellow compatriots,while idolising the Krauts,in the same old Tory way and not seeing what was the deliberate sabotage of UK industry and its workforce by the government,when it’s staring us in the face.

youtube.com/watch?v=pHlCqGAvNQg

youtube.com/watch?v=vom99PeHB64

youtube.com/watch?v=mGRIJsWtyl4

youtube.com/watch?v=sm5TZrfvhPg

Feel free to list BMW E3 survival numbers.

[fodenway]

Yes a lot of it was very poor but let’s not get blinkered by our perception of modern German cars; other than Mercedes, VW and Porsche the rest of the German offerings from the '60s and '70s were pretty dire as well. NSU, Wartburg, DKW, Auto Union, Borgward, Opel and not forgetting the especially evil Opel diesel engine. The rest of Europe’s smaller family cars were little better either.
[/quote]
Slight correction here - Borgward was out of production by 1961. My first car, bought in 1972, was a 1958 Borgward Isabella Combi, a very sturdy and spacious estate car with a much livelier performance than its British 1500cc equivalents such as the Austin A55 and Vauxhall Victor F Type, and even the 1700cc Ford Consul.

[carryfast]

fodenway:
Yes a lot of it was very poor but let’s not get blinkered by our perception of modern German cars; other than Mercedes, VW and Porsche the rest of the German offerings from the '60s and '70s were pretty dire as well. NSU, Wartburg, DKW, Auto Union, Borgward, Opel and not forgetting the especially evil Opel diesel engine. The rest of Europe’s smaller family cars were little better either.

Slight correction here - Borgward was out of production by 1961. My first car, bought in 1972, was a 1958 Borgward Isabella Combi, a very sturdy and spacious estate car with a much livelier performance than its British 1500cc equivalents such as the Austin A55 and Vauxhall Victor F Type, and even the 1700cc Ford Consul.
[/quote]
I reckon your memory is a bit out.

In the real world an Isabella coupe let alone combi in 1960 was priced at £ 1,927 total .All that for a heap that took almost 25 seconds to get to 60 mph.

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 646759943/

While you could have had a Zodiac Mk111 in 1962 for £1,070.So no even the Zodiac,let alone the A55,was far from the ‘equivalent’ in terms of price.While trust me having grown up around the motor trade in the 1960’s the depreciation on the Borgward would have been biblical compared to the Zodiac.Strange but no surprise how so many seem to have been brainwashed into laughably moving the goal posts around to make the foreign crap look good.

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 841990960/

[franglais]

Carryfast:

fodenway:
Yes a lot of it was very poor but let’s not get blinkered by our perception of modern German cars; other than Mercedes, VW and Porsche the rest of the German offerings from the '60s and '70s were pretty dire as well. NSU, Wartburg, DKW, Auto Union, Borgward, Opel and not forgetting the especially evil Opel diesel engine. The rest of Europe’s smaller family cars were little better either.

Slight correction here - Borgward was out of production by 1961. My first car, bought in 1972, was a 1958 Borgward Isabella Combi, a very sturdy and spacious estate car with a much livelier performance than its British 1500cc equivalents such as the Austin A55 and Vauxhall Victor F Type, and even the 1700cc Ford Consul.

I reckon your memory is a bit out.

In the real world an Isabella coupe let alone combi in 1960 was priced at £ 1,927 total .All that for a heap that took almost 25 seconds to get to 60 mph. [emoji38]

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 646759943/

While you could have had a Zodiac Mk111 in 1962 for £1,070.So no even the Zodiac,let alone the A55,was far from the ‘equivalent’ in terms of price.While trust me having grown up around the motor trade in the 1960’s the depreciation on the Borgward would have been biblical compared to the Zodiac.Strange but no surprise how so many seem to have been brainwashed into laughably moving the goal posts around to make the foreign crap look good.

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 841990960/
[/quote]

.
.
Interesting…but…
Are we talking about price of production for a similarly engineered car or the retail price in the UK?
If we take off the high import duties from the 60’s wouldn’t the German cars be more similar to UK cars?
From a cost/engineering/quality viewpoint I would say that are much nearer.
Put big duties on imports, and yes, we do see the retail price differences C.F. talks of.
It’s due to taxes, not engineering or production methods.

[carryfast]

Franglais:

Carryfast:

fodenway:
Slight correction here - Borgward was out of production by 1961. My first car, bought in 1972, was a 1958 Borgward Isabella Combi, a very sturdy and spacious estate car with a much livelier performance than its British 1500cc equivalents such as the Austin A55 and Vauxhall Victor F Type, and even the 1700cc Ford Consul.

I reckon your memory is a bit out.

In the real world an Isabella coupe let alone combi in 1960 was priced at £ 1,927 total .All that for a heap that took almost 25 seconds to get to 60 mph. [emoji38]

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 646759943/

While you could have had a Zodiac Mk111 in 1962 for £1,070.So no even the Zodiac,let alone the A55,was far from the ‘equivalent’ in terms of price.While trust me having grown up around the motor trade in the 1960’s the depreciation on the Borgward would have been biblical compared to the Zodiac.Strange but no surprise how so many seem to have been brainwashed into laughably moving the goal posts around to make the foreign crap look good.

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 841990960/

.
.
Interesting…but…
Are we talking about price of production for a similarly engineered car or the retail price in the UK?
If we take off the high import duties from the 60’s wouldn’t the German cars be more similar to UK cars?
From a cost/engineering/quality viewpoint I would say that are much nearer.
Put big duties on imports, and yes, we do see the retail price differences C.F. talks of.
It’s due to taxes, not engineering or production methods.

Surely retail price is a direct reflection of the production price. In this case largely based on Brit workers laughably out competing their German rivals.

While even if you’re saying that the difference between the pre purchase tax £778 of the Zodiac v the almost double £1,360 of the Borgward was all down to import duty ( which it obviously wasn’t ) there’s no way that even 40 % duty could have accounted for such a difference in value for money .Then how do you explain the fact that a Merc 350 cost around 3 times that of a Rover 3500 or a BMW E3 3.0 more than a Jaguar XJ12 after we’d joined the single market.The fact is we made a better product offering better value for money,then the workforce was kicked in the teeth for geopolitical reasons,in that we had to keep the higher paid Germans,turning out lesser cars for a higher price,happy.Some of that supposed ‘militant’ workforce being those that had saved the country previously during the war ( with Germany ).

While if you’re right,that the price difference between the 2.6 Zodiac saloon v the Borgward 1.5 coupe ,was all down to import duty.Then that makes your bs case,that a trade war with Germany would hit us harder,as opposed to bringing jobs back to Britain,just like we had during the 1960’s,how ?.

[ramone]

Carryfast:

ramone:

Carryfast:
As I remember it working in direct competition with German workers at Faun for example we made a better product for a lower price and utilising less investment to do it.The workers at Jaguar/Rover/Triumph and Ford/Vauxhall UK did the same v their German rivals.Everything which happened after that was deliberately meant to happen in making Germany top dog in Europe for geopolitical reasons.

So here we are with weakened unions,under employment of the workforce with too few workers doing too many hours and too much work and wages gone through the floor relative to prices and workers also being exploited by being expected to do more than one trade for one wage.

IE those strikes weren’t ever just for the the fun of it.As I said first we’re allied in Brexit.Then we can have the real anti free markets Labour v race to the bottom Tory fight the country needs after we’ve got it with no muddying of the waters by the German banker elites rushing to the Tories aid.

The real naive fools are those who think that more German rule is the answer to the working class struggle.Or for that matter the Tory Federalists,wanting to maintain their insurance policy, of Brit jobs for European workers,so as to corrupt the Brit labour market.Thereby wrecking the country’s prosperity.The fact that we’ve lost people like Hoey and Batten to be replaced by yet more Blairite Starmer policy and Tory BoJo,on either side,doesn’t look good in that regard.Prepare for more of the same.

Well, the mid 70s brought us utter crap from BL ,with the work force on strike on a daily basis . The quality was dire Rover SD1 Austin Allegros ,Austin Princess , Triumph Toledo ,Morris Marina , rust buckets that were poorly put together and the unions werent helping . Clarkson did a documentary on BL and one contributor said that a brand new car arrived at their dealership with different coloured door cards ie no two were the same . Now you cant blame that on management , just a workforce ( not all) that didnt give a toss . The Ford and Vauxhall plants werent any better strike wise , and you cant honestly say that BLs offerings were in the same league as any of the Germans quality wise

Firstly having owned and ran and still run BL products ( Triumph and Jaguar ) and German ( BMW and Cologne Ford ) the quality issue is typical Tory bs with the Brit products being superior in every regard for the equivalent price.Unsurprisingly being the same Tories who took us into the EU.

Yes the workforce was often on strike during the 1970’s in large part because they were stabbed in the back.By a so called Labour government imposing austerity,in the form of below inflation wage increases,to cure oil price led inflation while we were sitting on a sea of the stuff.While German workers laughed.

So getting back to the reality of 1972,which is what the argument is all about,we’ve got Rover 3500/3500S,Triumph 2.5,Jag XJ6/12 and Essex Ford 3.0 Granada.

Against which we’ve got BMW E3 and Merc.In which case a Merc 350 was around 3 times the price of the Rover 3500 and the BMW E3 2.5 was a lot more expensive than a 4.2 XJ6 and a 3.0 more expensive than an XJ12.As for comparing 3.0 Granada or 2.5 Triumph prices don’t even go there.Bearing in mind that in most cases the Merc’s and the BMW’s suspension was more rudimentary than either that of the Rover let alone the Jag’s more like the far cheaper Triumph’s.While even the Ford could do front a wishbone front end.

As for what happened later yes we know instead of a Triumph 4.5 PI we closed Triumph and got the ugly live axle 3500 SD1 and instead of a Granada 5.0 V8 we got the Cologne 2.8 for a higher price and instead of a 6 litre XJ12 we stayed with the 5.3 while Merc went for the 560.While asking the workforce to work harder for less pay.Having also wiped out Austin Morris with fwd crap long before that.Then the government finished the job of handing over the country to the Germans and blamed the workers.

Not much point in getting the country back from the EU if we’re just going to insult our fellow compatriots,while idolising the Krauts,in the same old Tory way and not seeing what was the deliberate sabotage of UK industry and its workforce by the government,when it’s staring us in the face.

youtube.com/watch?v=pHlCqGAvNQg

youtube.com/watch?v=vom99PeHB64

youtube.com/watch?v=mGRIJsWtyl4

youtube.com/watch?v=sm5TZrfvhPg

Feel free to list BMW E3 survival numbers.

The early to mid '70s Jags were well known for reliability problems and rust but when running right were awesome .The Stag which was another looker had the engine problems which again marred its overall rating. Transplant a big Rover engine in and you had / have a great car.

[carryfast]

ramone:
The early to mid '70s Jags were well known for reliability problems and rust but when running right were awesome .The Stag which was another looker had the engine problems which again marred its overall rating. Transplant a big Rover engine in and you had / have a great car.

All Jags,just like Mercs and BMW’s,by their design nature are maintenance heavy ( very ).The fact that anyone was happy to pay more for a 3 litre BMW than a V12 XJ let alone 3 times as much for a Merc than a V8 P6 Rover also obviously implies they didn’t mind spending a few more quid on maintenance.As opposed to too many JRT buyers expecting too much in that regard.

While the fact that I’ve still got a 1984 Jag and there are also a considerable number of 70’s versions still around.While my old 70’s BMW E3 seems to have gone to the autobahn in the sky by the 1990’s,even after I’d spent a fortune on trying to sort its rust issues during the 1980’s,together with most if not all of its compatriots here,suggests that the Germans were worse in that regard.

As for the Stag,like the premature ( deliberate ) demise of the big Triumph saloons shown in the vid.Yes the Germans would have hated an affordable 3.5-4.5 litre V8 Rover engined development of both competing with their over priced crap in the premium saloon and GT sector.So true to form the Kraut loving Brit government,having first needlessly ( deliberately ) lumbered it with a small,over complicated,over stressed motor,then killed the Stag and went for the 3.5 SD1 then blamed the workers for the resulting collapse.

[franglais]

Carryfast:

Franglais:

Carryfast:

fodenway:
Slight correction here - Borgward was out of production by 1961. My first car, bought in 1972, was a 1958 Borgward Isabella Combi, a very sturdy and spacious estate car with a much livelier performance than its British 1500cc equivalents such as the Austin A55 and Vauxhall Victor F Type, and even the 1700cc Ford Consul.

I reckon your memory is a bit out.

In the real world an Isabella coupe let alone combi in 1960 was priced at £ 1,927 total .All that for a heap that took almost 25 seconds to get to 60 mph. [emoji38]

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 646759943/

While you could have had a Zodiac Mk111 in 1962 for £1,070.So no even the Zodiac,let alone the A55,was far from the ‘equivalent’ in terms of price.While trust me having grown up around the motor trade in the 1960’s the depreciation on the Borgward would have been biblical compared to the Zodiac.Strange but no surprise how so many seem to have been brainwashed into laughably moving the goal posts around to make the foreign crap look good.

flickr.com/photos/triggersca … 841990960/

.
.
Interesting…but…
Are we talking about price of production for a similarly engineered car or the retail price in the UK?
If we take off the high import duties from the 60’s wouldn’t the German cars be more similar to UK cars?
From a cost/engineering/quality viewpoint I would say that are much nearer.
Put big duties on imports, and yes, we do see the retail price differences C.F. talks of.
It’s due to taxes, not engineering or production methods.

Surely retail price is a direct reflection of the production price. In this case largely based on Brit workers laughably out competing their German rivals.

While even if you’re saying that the difference between the pre purchase tax £778 of the Zodiac v the almost double £1,360 of the Borgward was all down to import duty ( which it obviously wasn’t ) there’s no way that even 40 % duty could have accounted for such a difference in value for money .Then how do you explain the fact that a Merc 350 cost around 3 times that of a Rover 3500 or a BMW E3 3.0 more than a Jaguar XJ12 after we’d joined the single market.The fact is we made a better product offering better value for money,then the workforce was kicked in the teeth for geopolitical reasons,in that we had to keep the higher paid Germans,turning out lesser cars for a higher price,happy.Some of that supposed ‘militant’ workforce being those that had saved the country previously during the war ( with Germany ).

While if you’re right,that the price difference between the 2.6 Zodiac saloon v the Borgward 1.5 coupe [emoji38],was all down to import duty.Then that makes your bs case,that a trade war with Germany would hit us harder,as opposed to bringing jobs back to Britain,just like we had during the 1960’s,how ?.

Putting up the price of a vehicle can only lower the demand. Maybe a Merc driver will opt for a Leaf instead but increased costs slow the market for all.
In trade wars both sides loose.
Trade is not a zero sum game. Higher prices because of tariffs cause a drop in production figures.
Loose - Loose.
.
I said before we can’t turn the clock back to the 70’s.
I’ll say now we can’t turn it back to 60’s either.
Small labour intensive car factories died decades ago. Leaving the EU ain’t gonna make them viable again.

[carryfast]

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Surely retail price is a direct reflection of the production price. In this case largely based on Brit workers laughably out competing their German rivals.

While even if you’re saying that the difference between the pre purchase tax £778 of the Zodiac v the almost double £1,360 of the Borgward was all down to import duty ( which it obviously wasn’t ) there’s no way that even 40 % duty could have accounted for such a difference in value for money .Then how do you explain the fact that a Merc 350 cost around 3 times that of a Rover 3500 or a BMW E3 3.0 more than a Jaguar XJ12 after we’d joined the single market.The fact is we made a better product offering better value for money,then the workforce was kicked in the teeth for geopolitical reasons,in that we had to keep the higher paid Germans,turning out lesser cars for a higher price,happy.Some of that supposed ‘militant’ workforce being those that had saved the country previously during the war ( with Germany ).

While if you’re right,that the price difference between the 2.6 Zodiac saloon v the Borgward 1.5 coupe [emoji38],was all down to import duty.Then that makes your bs case,that a trade war with Germany would hit us harder,as opposed to bringing jobs back to Britain,just like we had during the 1960’s,how ?.

Putting up the price of a vehicle can only lower the demand. Maybe a Merc driver will opt for a Leaf instead but increased costs slow the market for all.
In trade wars both sides loose.
Trade is not a zero sum game. Higher prices because of tariffs cause a drop in production figures.
Loose - Loose.
.
I said before we can’t turn the clock back to the 70’s.
I’ll say now we can’t turn it back to 60’s either.
Small labour intensive car factories died decades ago. Leaving the EU ain’t gonna make them viable again.

It’s clear that the difference in value for money between the joke Borgward v the Mk 111 Zodiac couldn’t possibly have been accounted for by import duty.The fact is it was a typical poor value for money rip off Kraut product and unbelievably they found mug takers for it.Just like later in the form of people paying 3 times as much for a Merc 350 than a Rover 3500 P6.

As for Dagenham in the roaring 60’s a ‘small’ labour intensive car factory’.Are you serious.No it was actually a very big operation with a labour force to match.As you can see from that comparison with economies of scale which could trash its opposition foreign and sometimes even domestic.While the Germans knew it in turning out crap like the Borgward example at almost twice the price.With even Ford Germany having no real competitor to either the Zodiac or the later Essex Granada or even the Cortina.Until Ford handed them the initiative on a plate by allowing them to nick our rwd configuration to replace their zb fwd Taunus thereby effectively closing down UK Cortina production and also handing over Granada production to add insult to injury.At that point it being clear that showering favours on ze Germans was thought to be the best way of creating a USE made in the USA’s image with the enthusiastic help of the UK government.So almost 50 years later here we are.

As for a European trade war it’s obvious that it’s the Germans who intend to kick that off not us.Because they know that they can’t and never could compete with the Brits given a level playing field.While the result on prices of domestic v foreign made goods would be very similar to what we had in the 1960’s and early 1970’s regardless.With us out way ahead and the German wannabees trying to catch us by charging silly money for very average products and/or being hit harder by their own attempts to bring us to heel.There’s only one loser in that situation when customers eventually realise that the ( German ) emperor has no clothes.

The problem being that the quisling UK government and its US puppet master made sure that wouldn’t happen by deliberately sabotaging the Brits.So yes resetting the clock back to the time before that happened is in fact the only way that we can save this country and its economy from being a subservient vassal puppet based on the idea of Germany and its French poodle always seen as being top dogs in Europe.The sooner we can put Dagenham,Luton and Coventry back where they belong in that regard,preferably at the expense of EU imports,the better.While maintaining the status quo is just another form of BRINO.

[fodenway]

Carryfast said - "I reckon your memory is a bit out.

In the real world an Isabella coupe let alone combi in 1960 was priced at £ 1,927 total .All that for a heap that took almost 25 seconds to get to 60 mph. "

Granted, Borgwards were more expensive to buy here than comparative British-built family cars of a similar size, due to the addition of import duties, but how much would one of our Austins, Hillmans or Vauxhalls (or for that matter, something like a Peugeot 403) have cost in Germany at the time? And let’s not forget, these were family cars, not hotrods, and performance figures were pretty much the same, give or take a second or three, for most cars in the 5-seat 1500cc class - modest, to say the least, compared with today’s cars but perfectly acceptable almost sixty years ago.
By the way, the Daily Express Motor Show Guides give UK prices for the Isabella Saloon as £812.0.0 + £407.7.0 p.t. (£1219.7.0) for 1959 cars, and £830.0.0 + £346.19.2 p.t. (£1176.19.2) for 1960. The combi (I believe) was priced between the saloon and the coupe.
And no, I haven’t been "brainwashed into laughably moving the goalposts around to make the foreign crap look good ". I bought the Borgward because it was affordable, different, and suited my needs at the time. It was reliable and didn’t suffer from rust issues like so many others of it’s age, so to me, on its own merits it was a good car.

[dexxy57]

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Its BECAUSE of the maths and the logic, I think Brexit is a bad idea. I havent decided Brexit is bad and then gone off looking for ways to justify that opinion.

If you think that trashing our remaining manufacturing base, and hobbling agriculture is a price worth paying, say so. That is your opinion.
Forgive me if I choose not join your Quixotic attempt to tilt at imaginary EU villians, and ride off back to the 1970`s.

Cant disagree with that first point.

Second point? Don’t be too hard on the guy, he’s only recently dragged himself forward to the 70’s.

[eddie_heaton]

[dexxy57]

Carryfast:

Franglais:

bigstraight6:
A perfect response there ramone, with the vast numbers of Audi, BMW, VAG, Mercedes cars sold in this country every year there could be a big issue for the German motor industry.

Yes, a hard Brexit could make the German car industry catch a chill, it could give the UK car industry a serious cold or the `flu.
Look at the whole picture, and work it out yourself.

It would only make the slightest difference if the EU wants to kick off a trade war because it doesn’t do secession.

So we replace German imports with domestic production putting us back in the position that we were in 1972.On the basis that the home produced product has no trade tariffs/barriers applied.

Now awaits remainer maths which says that we sell more cars to the Germans than they sell to us.Also bearing in mind that we’re talking about the combined EU car market here which involves a lot more than just German imports.

Em . . . domestic production?

[franglais]

Eddie Heaton:
0

Nope.
Sorry mate, no style.
Thelma And Louise, however… Maybe not with a T-Bird though.

[hrs]

Morning all,
It is interesting reading views on unions etc so a little storey about them (not good or bad)
1973 four bright young’ish truck salesmen (yes i was included) were in a place called Sodertalje just south of Stockholm visiting the Saab/Scania factory.
We were ushered off quickley in to the canteen before the tour as there was a big union issue and it would not be right to walk arround, trouble, cant say anything about it yet !!!
1 hour passed and we were given the green light, all well you can carry on, we did and had a very enjoyable visit.
In the evening having a drink or two i asked our host, what was all that about this morning.
The union aproached the management and wanted to know what the workforce would have to do to get another weeks paid leave a year.
Answer, and it was ageed by both sides within the hour,instead of starting work at, say 8 oclock in the morning, you would have to start at 20 to 8, deal done.
Thats it, done !!! in 1973.
Not wanting to put our industry down, but, can anyone imagin that taking place in the UK, then or now, Harvey

[ramone]

HRS:
Morning all,
It is interesting reading views on unions etc so a little storey about them (not good or bad)
1973 four bright young’ish truck salesmen (yes i was included) were in a place called Sodertalje just south of Stockholm visiting the Saab/Scania factory.
We were ushered off quickley in to the canteen before the tour as there was a big union issue and it would not be right to walk arround, trouble, cant say anything about it yet !!!
1 hour passed and we were given the green light, all well you can carry on, we did and had a very enjoyable visit.
In the evening having a drink or two i asked our host, what was all that about this morning.
The union aproached the management and wanted to know what the workforce would have to do to get another weeks paid leave a year.
Answer, and it was ageed by both sides within the hour,instead of starting work at, say 8 oclock in the morning, you would have to start at 20 to 8, deal done.
Thats it, done !!! in 1973.
Not wanting to put our industry down, but, can anyone imagin that taking place in the UK, then or now, Harvey

Its the words we dont use here anymore common sense

[carryfast]

fodenway:
Carryfast said - "I reckon your memory is a bit out.

In the real world an Isabella coupe let alone combi in 1960 was priced at £ 1,927 total .All that for a heap that took almost 25 seconds to get to 60 mph. "

Granted, Borgwards were more expensive to buy here than comparative British-built family cars of a similar size, due to the addition of import duties, but how much would one of our Austins, Hillmans or Vauxhalls (or for that matter, something like a Peugeot 403) have cost in Germany at the time? And let’s not forget, these were family cars, not hotrods, and performance figures were pretty much the same, give or take a second or three, for most cars in the 5-seat 1500cc class - modest, to say the least, compared with today’s cars but perfectly acceptable almost sixty years ago.
By the way, the Daily Express Motor Show Guides give UK prices for the Isabella Saloon as £812.0.0 + £407.7.0 p.t. (£1219.7.0) for 1959 cars, and £830.0.0 + £346.19.2 p.t. (£1176.19.2) for 1960. The combi (I believe) was priced between the saloon and the coupe.
And no, I haven’t been "brainwashed into laughably moving the goalposts around to make the foreign crap look good ". I bought the Borgward because it was affordable, different, and suited my needs at the time. It was reliable and didn’t suffer from rust issues like so many others of it’s age, so to me, on its own merits it was a good car.

How is a large Zodiac 2.6 6 cylinder 4 door saloon capable of 100 mph and 0-60 in 13 seconds in any way shape or form ‘comparative’ with a small 1.5 litre mickey mouse German heap which struggled to reach 80 mph ?.

So staying with 1960’s prices,forget the 50’s,exactly how much ‘import duty’ are you suggesting was supposedly added to the Kraut heap to make it almost ‘twice’ the price of the ‘ZODIAC’ before and after purchase tax ?.While your comments just tell me that your buying choice was that an old obsolete piece of small German junk was better than buying a later,cheaper to maintain,faster,6 cylinder Triumph,with more room and more comfort,for around the same price if not less for example.

I also notice that Franglais ( or ramone ) didn’t answer the question as to the comparison in price between the Rover 3500 v the Merc 350 within the ‘single market’ where you don’t even have the excuse of ‘import taxes’.The fact is of course the Krauts could build a relatively ( arguably ) ‘better’ product in that regard,with a happy workforce,because they were bleedin charging for it and then some.

The difference being that the average ‘militant’ working class Brit was more likely to be able to afford the Rover,or a Granada,or a Zodiac before that,or a big Triumph,or even a Jag,than the average German worker could actually afford to buy a Merc 350 because they weren’t earning 3 times as much as the ‘militant’ Brits.In which case the elites decided that would never do the Brits had to be brought down a peg or two and here we are with everyone lumbered with anything much more than a 1.5 zb box being unaffordable and what the Brits can afford mostly being overpriced imported,if not locally made,Euro or Jap crap,being paid for with borrowed and printed cash adding to an unsustainable trade deficit.

Well done uncle Sam you’ve destroyed the Anglo Saxon model and replaced it with the German Jap axis which thousands if not millions died trying to stop.All in the name of US Federalism if not One World Order Globalism.

[carryfast]

HRS:
Morning all,
It is interesting reading views on unions etc so a little storey about them (not good or bad)
1973 four bright young’ish truck salesmen (yes i was included) were in a place called Sodertalje just south of Stockholm visiting the Saab/Scania factory.
We were ushered off quickley in to the canteen before the tour as there was a big union issue and it would not be right to walk arround, trouble, cant say anything about it yet !!!
1 hour passed and we were given the green light, all well you can carry on, we did and had a very enjoyable visit.
In the evening having a drink or two i asked our host, what was all that about this morning.
The union aproached the management and wanted to know what the workforce would have to do to get another weeks paid leave a year.
Answer, and it was ageed by both sides within the hour,instead of starting work at, say 8 oclock in the morning, you would have to start at 20 to 8, deal done.
Thats it, done !!! in 1973.
Not wanting to put our industry down, but, can anyone imagin that taking place in the UK, then or now, Harvey

Let’s say 20 minutes extra work per day x 5 days = 100 minutes per week x 47 weeks = 78 hours extra work per year.In return for 5 extra days = 42.5 hours off ?.Great deal …for the boss.

On that note in a ‘militant’ 70’s truck factory ( better product than Faun for a lower price ) we actually ‘sold’ our morning and afternoon canteen breaks.Because the time spent going to the canteen queuing and sitting down then going back to our work stations resulted in more like 1/2 - 3/4 hour being lost for each.So instead a few people went to the canteen ( generally us lower paid trainees )to bring back all the rolls and teas which,were then eaten and drank while still working and no one left their work stations.Personally I thought it was a silly sell out by the so called ‘militant’ union which just made our working day longer and harder.When we were already producing more than a fair product for less than a fair day’s pay ( compared to our German rivals ).

[carryfast]

dexxy57:

Carryfast:
So we replace German imports with domestic production putting us back in the position that we were in 1972.On the basis that the home produced product has no trade tariffs/barriers applied.

Em . . . domestic production?

Which part of,reset the clock back to 1972,or we die as both an independent sovereign country and economically crushed by the weight of the combination of life blood sucking EU ‘contributions’ and an unsustainable trade deficit,didn’t you understand.

[spardo]

Carryfast:
Which part of,reset the clock back to 1972,or we die as both an independent sovereign country and economically crushed by the weight of the combination of life blood sucking EU ‘contributions’ and an unsustainable trade deficit,didn’t you understand.

All of it, because it is errant nonsense.