The truth is we haven’t a clue if we will be better off or not coming out of the EU, we don’t know the nuts and bolts of the whole shebang, even the politicians don’t know so I’m baffled as to how they will guide us on how to vote. I know there will be plenty of people of our standing, whether you want to call it working class or not depending on what that means these days, that will vote no simply because all we hear about Europe is how they dictate our lives from Brussels and a no vote might mean not letting anyone we don’t want into the country which I believe will be very doubtful to succeed. In the end we probably won’t see any difference to our lives whether we are in or out I might just sit on the fence with this one as I don’t know enough about it. Franky.
Out.
Personally i think Politics is best left to the younger generation as they still think they can make a difference and that their vote actually matters
I see it’s being held in June so it should be before this years immigrant crisis hits the papers again , does anyone know where they all go when it isn’t the holiday season?
Frankydobo:
The truth is we haven’t a clue if we will be better off or not coming out of the EU, we don’t know the nuts and bolts of the whole shebang, even the politicians don’t know so I’m baffled as to how they will guide us on how to vote. I know there will be plenty of people of our standing, whether you want to call it working class or not depending on what that means these days, that will vote no simply because all we hear about Europe is how they dictate our lives from Brussels and a no vote might mean not letting anyone we don’t want into the country which I believe will be very doubtful to succeed. In the end we probably won’t see any difference to our lives whether we are in or out I might just sit on the fence with this one as I don’t know enough about it. Franky.
[/quote]This seems to be the case with my friends and neighbours, nobody REALLY knows what will happen one way or the other! You have Richard Branson on the news yesterday saying that we should stop in because all the bad points have now been sorted out to Britains benefit and we will no longer be ruled by the EU, a couple of local folk who work at a Midlands car factory have heard rumours that the company will pull out of Britain if we come out and others will follow, yet the vast majority (or so it appears?) want out!
I asked my missus, she hasn’t a clue what it is all about anyway as nobody has explained it either way and there must be thousands more the same who just couldn’t care less as they have ‘had their life’ and have no real interest in any of it as they are unlikely to be affected to any great amount either way really.
Pete.
In Out, Whats it all about, ■■?, IMO Its a catch 22 situation, Only time will tell whatever the result is, Regards Larry.
Tommy7437:
Personally i think Politics is best left to the younger generation as they still think they can make a difference and that their vote actually matters
Retaining,or in this case getting back,the nation’s sovereignty is something which is the responsibility of each generation to provide for the next while ‘educating’ them that handing that over to a foreign federal government is an act of treason and therefore not negotiable or a matter for democratic choice.Whereas what we’ve actually got is successive generations being educated that the idea of the nation state is bad and that being ruled by European Federal government is good.In large part based on US domestic fears of ongoing secessionist pressures at home.
windrush:
there must be thousands more the same who just couldn’t care less as they have ‘had their life’ and have no real interest in any of it as they are unlikely to be affected to any great amount either way really.Pete.
Which is how examples like the US and Yugoslav wars of secession and resulting casualties happened because no one gave a zb when they needed to in order to protect future generations from the inevitable results of Federalism. 
On that note if Cameron was telling the truth about the return of sovereignty then we’d already have torn up our signature to,and with it all of our obligations under,the treaties of Rome,Maastricht and Lisbon as part of his so called ‘deal’. 
Carryfast:
Tommy7437:
Personally i think Politics is best left to the younger generation as they still think they can make a difference and that their vote actually mattersRetaining,or in this case getting back,the nation’s sovereignty is something which is the responsibility of each generation to provide for the next while ‘educating’ them that handing that over to a foreign federal government is an act of treason and therefore not negotiable or a matter for democratic choice.Whereas what we’ve actually got is successive generations being educated that the idea of the nation state is bad and that being ruled by European Federal government is good.In large part based on US domestic fears of ongoing secessionist pressures at home.
I hear you and fair play . Agree also but personally dont waste my time voting into a corrupt system. No need for a vote! We are staying in the EU! Fact!
When Scottish Independence vote was happening the missus and oldest trooped up to the polling station to cast their vote. Personally i didnt waste my time. Told them i admired their optimism but the result was already decided and not to bother. They both went anyway, fair play, their choice.
With all the corrupt governments worldwide, vote rigging worldwide, it amazes me ( well not so much now ) that UK residents think that it could never happen here. Fair play to them, each to their own, live and let live and all that but never get me putting an X on a ballot paper
Good luck to those who do and hope for a change. HOPE is a great thing 
PEACE
Tommy7437:
Carryfast:
Tommy7437:
Personally i think Politics is best left to the younger generation as they still think they can make a difference and that their vote actually mattersRetaining,or in this case getting back,the nation’s sovereignty is something which is the responsibility of each generation to provide for the next while ‘educating’ them that handing that over to a foreign federal government is an act of treason and therefore not negotiable or a matter for democratic choice.Whereas what we’ve actually got is successive generations being educated that the idea of the nation state is bad and that being ruled by European Federal government is good.In large part based on US domestic fears of ongoing secessionist pressures at home.
I hear you and fair play . Agree also but personally dont waste my time voting into a corrupt system. No need for a vote! We are staying in the EU! Fact!
When Scottish Independence vote was happening the missus and oldest trooped up to the polling station to cast their vote. Personally i didnt waste my time. Told them i admired their optimism but the result was already decided and not to bother. They both went anyway, fair play, their choice.
With all the corrupt governments worldwide, vote rigging worldwide, it amazes me ( well not so much now ) that UK residents think that it could never happen here. Fair play to them, each to their own, live and let live and all that but never get me putting an X on a ballot paper
Good luck to those who do and hope for a change. HOPE is a great thing
PEACE
I’d agree it’s always going to be a matter of ‘hoping’ that the whole governmental system isn’t rigged but always under the scary possibility that it always was and always will be. 
While if you’re right that can only mean one thing regarding those WW1 casualties.Who were ordered to walk slowly in ordered lines into the German machine guns which the artillery seemed to have ‘missed’ and for which the orders to advance seem to have been equally mysteriously impossible to reverse and then re start the barrage and this time hit something.
If we do actually get a vote. I will vote Out.
I’m voting to stay IN, I seem to be in a minority
£1 a day per person is a drop in the ocean, we spend nearly as much on the spongers called Saxe-Coburg oh I mean Windsor
How much cost will be introduced by cross border tariff’s and delays to transport due to Custom clearance, and the requirement for Customs papers to be drawn up for every load, again. We the end consumer will pay for that.
Prices up, Wages down. All business will use the “brexit” as excuse for doing either.
I’m having 20 days annual leave this year, that is law now, because of the EU social chapter, not due to the largesse of a Tory Government.
So 34000 children living in eastern Europe, who have a parent working in the UK get child benefit, that is 00.3% of the child benefit budget, and that parent will be paying income tax in the UK. Its not the Polskis I work with who trading as Limited companies, but only working for one employer, so they can cut there Tax bill to sod all, its My fellow hypocrites I mean Brits that are pulling that stunt
And for many more reasons, I’m stopping IN 
if Brussels dictates everything we do in this country, how did Tony Bliar take us to war in Iraq, when most of Europe, and the European Parliament didn’t agree with it
eddie snax:
if Brussels dictates everything we do in this country, how did Tony Bliar take us to war in Iraq, when most of Europe, and the European Parliament didn’t agree with it
GW 1 and 2 were a UK/US alliance job and,so far,the EU doesn’t have any Federal military provision or command.Although that irrelevant small EU state of …France was also there.
The issue in this case being the inevitable eventual move to an EU Federal military force with history showing that such forces are generally as,if not more,likely to be used against secession from within than defence against outside threats.That’s assuming in this case that the EU doesn’t kick off a war with Russia first.In which case you can bet that we’ll be the first target that Russia wipes off the map.
Carryfast:
eddie snax:
if Brussels dictates everything we do in this country, how did Tony Bliar take us to war in Iraq, when most of Europe, and the European Parliament didn’t agree with itGW 1 and 2 were a UK/US alliance job and,so far,the EU doesn’t have any Federal military provision or command.Although that irrelevant small EU state of …France was also there.
.
Yes I know it was a US and allies force, my point was that a constant refrain is “we are governed by Brussels” but that being the case, we wouldn’t have been in the US alliance in Iraq.
Though if my memory serves me correctly, France was opposed to the Iraq war, without further UN mandates. which didn’t materialise. but I have had whisky so my memory is very poor at this point
Carryfast:
The issue in this case being the inevitable eventual move to an EU Federal military force with history showing that such forces are generally as,if not more,likely to be used against secession from within than defence against outside threats.That’s assuming in this case that the EU doesn’t kick off a war with Russia first.In which case you can bet that we’ll be the first target that Russia wipes off the map.
I think you are wrong about an EU federal military force, as most EU members are in NATO, and most EU members would rather let the Americans pay for their protection than cough up themselves. The excemptions being Britain and France, though I have My doubts that are political masters are that comitted to are military power, judging by the catastrophic cuts are armed services have suffered in recent years
eddie snax:
I think you are wrong about an EU federal military force, as most EU members are in NATO, and most EU members would rather let the Americans pay for their protection than cough up themselves. The excemptions being Britain and France, though I have My doubts that are political masters are that comitted to are military power, judging by the catastrophic cuts are armed services have suffered in recent years
The fact that the EU didn’t at the time and doesn’t even yet have any Federal military command system explains the inconsistency in the example of defence policy still being one of the few,if any,matters still under seperate EU state sovereign control.IE the issue of sovereignty only applies to that lost in the treaties signed,‘so far’.Of which federal military control isn’t there ‘yet’.
While it would be fair to say that the lessons of history suggest that Federal government inevitably means a Federal controlled military whose primary objective is maintaining Federal rule internally ( IE the Union ) against any calls for the right of self determination and secession among the states.With the disarmament and foreign population of Britain possibly being part of that long term agenda.Bearing in mind the combined military strength of France,Germany and Eastern Europe for example assuming we ever ended up in the situation of being considered a secessionist ‘rebel’ state,maybe generations into the future having condemned them to that fate through decisions being made now.
As for NATO yes it could arguably be seen as a back door EU federal force which could back fire badly in the case of either dragging us into a fight between Turkey and Russia and/or Eastern Europe and Russia for example.On that note what connection has Turkey or Eastern Europe have with a so called ‘Atlantic’ geographic area defence alliance.
Aint it ironic that the very minute David Cameron finished his marathon of meetings with all the other EU ministers that France declared it was disbanding the immigrant camp at Calais, is this a kind of sweetner to the British and why did they not do that 15 years ago, hmm ! Buzzer.
OUT!
Good Morning All.
Seems to me theres pros & cons to both sides obviously, but I do come down quite firmly on one side. Trade: be it finance, manufacturing or agriculture all trading is done to agreed standards isnt it? As it is, were subject to EU regs, which we have a say in. If we leave well still have to conform to the same regs to trade with the EU, but wont be able to have a say in the regs. Dont sound good to me. To trade with the rest of the world well need some non EU agreements, good job creation scheme there for some highly paid bureauocrats methinks. And that cost will all come from our own pockets, not spread out with all countries in the club contributing. Car plants in the UK: weve Japan investing here because were part of the EU. I imagine that if any companies are considering investing here rather than other EU countries (many with cheaper labour & land), they are going to be put off by our threatening to get out. Trade with the US Aus etc? I know sea transport is remarkably cheap (at the moment) but food, raw materials, and finished goods are surely better sourced more locally? And consider what Ive said about all the civil servants we will need to thrash out agreements etc. As part of a big trading group we can cover our costs easier.
EU corruption and expense? Im no apologist for EU "snouts in the trough" selfish politicians. But if anyone thinks all our domestic politicos are lily white then Ill ask where have been since . . . well,. . forever? Brown envelopes, false expenses, child ■■■ scandals, housing fiddles, the list goes on. The EU is far from perfect but the alternative aint any better. Immigration. I think we should be really thankful to some other EU countries for theyre taking in more than their fair share of asylum seekers and economic immigrants. Not all I agree. And if we didnt have a bi-lateral border agreement with France (remember we opted to stay outside Schengen zone), the UK wouldnt have Border posts in Calais and The Jungle wouldnt be in the Pas DCalais itd be in Kent. There is a serious problem with migration, but the EU hasnt been the root cause of it, and wed be better off working with the EU rather than blaming them! Im expecting some disagreement, when I say were much better staying in, and taking a more active part to improve things rather than sit on the edge and keep threatening to jump ship, but the EU aint perfect, however the alternative is surely worse!