Wheel Nut:
I don’t think it can be any simpler and am surprised you don’t agree with the legislation I found.
But you haven’t found any legislation that’s relevant, we know you’re not required to comply with the RT(WT)R on days that you’re not working to EU regulations and that includes days you’re on jury service, in fact I said as much myself way back in 2008 in this post.
The issue isn’t whether or not jury service counts towards the RT(WT)R, it does not, the issue is whether or not it counts as rest for the (EC) 561/2006 regulations.
As I’ve already said there are situations where you are not working to the RT(WT)R but still cannot count the time as rest for the tachograph regulations.
As I said before I’m not 100% sure that jury service cannot be counted as rest though I suspect it cannot, but I’m pretty sure you won’t find the answer in the working time regulations for mobile workers that you keep quoting because it’s not the working time regulations that dictate what is or is not rest for the tachograph regulations.
Wheel Nut:
You only need to be able to “freely dispose of your time” if you are working under the EC legislation of 561/2006.
To be precise you only need to be able to dispose of your time freely when you want the rest to count for the (EC) 561/2006 regulations as in this case.
None of which relates to the EU drivers hours regulations either.
Your quote proves beyond doubt IMO that Jury Service doesn’t count as working time for the purposes of the RT(WT)R, and nobody has so far disputed that.
As tachograph has said though working in a shop (or in any other job not related to road transport) doesn’t count as working time for the purposes of the RT(WT)R either, but it does count as “other work” for the purposes of the EU driver’s hours rules. I would argue that Jury Service falls into the same category although as I said before I have nothing definitive to back that up.
I’ll throw my two pennyworth in to the discussion.
I cannot see how being required to sit in a Court and listen to Defence and Prosecution arguments, as a Juror can be classed as ‘rest,’ for the purposes of EC 561/2006. It doesn’t really matter what other name we give this period (although personally I would be inclined to call it ‘work’) but it isn’t ‘rest.’
Ironically, you could go to the same Court on a daily basis and listen to the same legal arguments as a member of the Public and class the time as ‘rest,’ as you were disposing of your time freely. With Jury Service there is an obligation to attend Court at particular times and not leave until dismissed. A few folks have found out the hard way that not complying with the obligations of Jury Service has got them a longer sentence than the accused got
tachograph:
Thank you for the post geebee45, hopefully that will satisfy the doubters and put this particular question to rest
No, not really! It’s one for the lawyers. I have emailed Vosa for their opinion, no names no pack drill! I can see what you are saying and would agree you might be correct bit I can apply that statement to Malcs’ opinion too!
tachograph:
Thank you for the post geebee45, hopefully that will satisfy the doubters and put this particular question to rest
No, not really! It’s one for the lawyers. I have emailed Vosa for their opinion, no names no pack drill! I can see what you are saying and would agree you might be correct bit I can apply that statement to Malcs’ opinion too!
I think what Geebee45 has said is that the law is an ■■■ as you can be in the dock or watching proceedings, but not listening to them with an upturned thumb
However I am sure a reply from VOSA will have a footnote about waiting for a judgement or caselaw in the High Court.
It will be an interesting case, lorry driver on jury is arrested whilst discussing case on jury service
Well we all know the law is an ■■■ but what’s that got to do with this debate
If the issue ever is tested in court I’m pretty certain you’ll find that the court decides that the meaning of rest is indisputable and the meaning of work “outside of the transport sector” as described in article 4 of (EC) 561/2006 is clearly intended to mean any work.
Though to be fair the meaning of work or other work is only of secondary importance in this case as it’s the meaning of rest that’s important and that’s to have the ability to freely dispose of your time
I am quite willing to be wrong on this, quite surprised, but wrong, along the same lines of voluntary or compulsory DCPC training.
If it is voluntary and you arrange it with a gang of workmates you can do 14 hours over the weekend without it affecting your weekly rest, yet if you are paid for doing it, you must count that time as duty. At the end of the weekend you have done the same thing, and if you want to be a professional driver it is compulsory.
We all agree that refusing Jury Service is not an option, it is not voluntary so it must by nature be compulsory, one of the determining factors of deciding whether it is duty time or rest time.
I have put this thread on watch and have opened another dialogue with some lawmakers.
Rest and other days off
The period of time unaccounted for between successive charts produced by a driver should normally be regarded as (unless there is evidence to the contrary) a rest period when drivers are able to dispose freely of their time. In the UK, drivers are not expected to account for this period, unless enforcement authorities have reason to believe that they were working.
I still think this advice from the VOSA guide is open to good legal interpretation though.
Wheel Nut:
I am quite willing to be wrong on this, quite surprised, but wrong, along the same lines of voluntary or compulsory DCPC training.
If it is voluntary and you arrange it with a gang of workmates you can do 14 hours over the weekend without it affecting your weekly rest, yet if you are paid for doing it, you must count that time as duty. At the end of the weekend you have done the same thing, and if you want to be a professional driver it is compulsory.
We all agree that refusing Jury Service is not an option, it is not voluntary so it must by nature be compulsory, one of the determining factors of deciding whether it is duty time or rest time.
I have put this thread on watch and have opened another dialogue with some lawmakers.
Rest and other days off
The period of time unaccounted for between successive charts produced by a driver should normally be regarded as (unless there is evidence to the contrary) a rest period when drivers are able to dispose freely of their time. In the UK, drivers are not expected to account for this period, unless enforcement authorities have reason to believe that they were working.
I still think this advice from the VOSA guide is open to good legal interpretation though.
There was already an official reply on here somewhere which spelled out the difference between voluntary and compulsory training
DCPC is not voluntary but compulsory because if it is not done then the driver cannot carry on working as a LGV driver
Trying to make an argument for it being paid (or not) or deciding when to do it makes no difference to the fact that it is compulsory for the first 35 hours if the driver then decided to do another 14 hours on top of the 35 then that would not be compulsory because they can choose to do that extra 14 hours or not
Compulsory does not mean being told to do it at a certain time by an employer etc - it means it is compulsory to do within a 5 year period - just like jury service is compulsory to do and a time frame is given for doing it
Wheel Nut:
I am quite willing to be wrong on this, quite surprised, but wrong, along the same lines of voluntary or compulsory DCPC training.
If it is voluntary and you arrange it with a gang of workmates you can do 14 hours over the weekend without it affecting your weekly rest, yet if you are paid for doing it, you must count that time as duty. At the end of the weekend you have done the same thing, and if you want to be a professional driver it is compulsory.
We all agree that refusing Jury Service is not an option, it is not voluntary so it must by nature be compulsory, one of the determining factors of deciding whether it is duty time or rest time.
I have put this thread on watch and have opened another dialogue with some lawmakers.
Rest and other days off
The period of time unaccounted for between successive charts produced by a driver should normally be regarded as (unless there is evidence to the contrary) a rest period when drivers are able to dispose freely of their time. In the UK, drivers are not expected to account for this period, unless enforcement authorities have reason to believe that they were working.
I still think this advice from the VOSA guide is open to good legal interpretation though.
There was already an official reply on here somewhere which spelled out the difference between voluntary and compulsory training
DCPC is not voluntary but compulsory because if it is not done then the driver cannot carry on working as a LGV driver
Trying to make an argument for it being paid (or not) or deciding when to do it makes no difference to the fact that it is compulsory for the first 35 hours if the driver then decided to do another 14 hours on top of the 35 then that would not be compulsory because they can choose to do that extra 14 hours or not
Compulsory does not mean being told to do it at a certain time by an employer etc - it means it is compulsory to do within a 5 year period - just like jury service is compulsory to do and a time frame is given for doing it
It was my “official reply” Rog. I am aware of it, it was from Mike Penning
Just searched for jury service/wtd and found this thread.
My work says Jury Service is rest, but have to record WT.
so when i was on JS Monday and Tuesday started 10:15 finished 16:30 so 5.25 each day for WT.
Wednesday, Thursday , Friday and Saturday working, (35 hours WT) Sunday holiday as i work Saturday to Wednesday.
so still within 60 hours
as you can be in the dock or watching proceedings, but not listening to them with an upturned thumb 