DHL fined £2m

TheUncaringCowboy:

truckyboy:
I found sainsburys to have one of the best systems…go to office…they dedicate a bay…reverse on… lock the cab…hang your keys on a chain by the bay…they pull them up…red light goes on…that stays red until tipped, then goes green or they call your company name when your in the waiting room…keys dropped back down…everyone is safe…except drivers who have to listen to the piffle…unless outside having a smoke or coffee. :smiley:

I find the best systems to be the ones where I go on the bay, have the freedom to sit in my cab, eat in the canteen, hold on to my keys then someone comes and tells me I’m loaded/tipped and to go away.

Everyone uses common sense and everyone is safe. And treated like a grown up.

The problem with the red line in the sand here - is “Wot happens when they decide to take six hours to turn you around?” :stuck_out_tongue: :arrow_right:

Juddian:

rob22888:

Juddian:
Don’t see how a wheel locking mechanism would have saved the life of someone who ends up behind a reversing lorry, but happy to be educated.

If I had to hazard a guess, if the system was working properly they wouldn’t have been able to open the dock door until there was a wagon there with it’s wheels locked in place.

I thought most places with the green/red light system worked like that too, door won’t open unless the green light is on.

Sadly not. Doors can be opened at out place as your hooking up to a trailer if a warehouse bod decides to check if its a loaded or empty trailer. Even though we have a dock door tag process which had to be followed.

But as with everything anything that involves human interaction there is the possibility of someone doing something that should not happen.

The only way to stop these sort of things happening is by wheel locking systems and the door cannot be opened til the vehicle is safely docked, and the truck cannot be released until the door is shut and even then it needs a time delay of at least several minutes to ensure the truck has finished parking or the truck has left before the door can be operated again.

This was discussed after a 3rd pull off on a red light at our place and suggestion was around 15k a bay for docking system. Turns out to be too expensive.

2 mill fine plus whatever it cost looking after the workers family. Makes 15k a bay seem a bargain after all.

simcor:

Juddian:

rob22888:

Juddian:
Don’t see how a wheel locking mechanism would have saved the life of someone who ends up behind a reversing lorry, but happy to be educated.

If I had to hazard a guess, if the system was working properly they wouldn’t have been able to open the dock door until there was a wagon there with it’s wheels locked in place.

I thought most places with the green/red light system worked like that too, door won’t open unless the green light is on.

Sadly not. Doors can be opened at out place as your hooking up to a trailer if a warehouse bod decides to check if its a loaded or empty trailer. Even though we have a dock door tag process which had to be followed.

But as with everything anything that involves human interaction there is the possibility of someone doing something that should not happen.

The only way to stop these sort of things happening is by wheel locking systems and the door cannot be opened til the vehicle is safely docked, and the truck cannot be released until the door is shut and even then it needs a time delay of at least several minutes to ensure the truck has finished parking or the truck has left before the door can be operated again.

If you have a time delay of several minutes when the driver pulls on, that’s a lot of wasted time, and encourages annoyance and poor attitudes because people don’t feel in control and able to get on with work when it may be clearly appropriate to do so.

The essence of what you’re trying to establish is the driver’s intentions. Making an inference from how long a vehicle has been stationary (or absent) is extremely haphazard. If you have an iron rule that a door must not be open during maneouvering, then what you really want is a signal from the driver that he has finished maneouvering. Having that system of clear communication that people participate in is best for safety, rather than treating the whole thing as a mechanical system.

This was discussed after a 3rd pull off on a red light at our place and suggestion was around 15k a bay for docking system. Turns out to be too expensive.

2 miles fine plus whatever it cost looking after the workers family. Makes 15k a bay seem a bargain after all.

Indeed. Just for curiosity, what was the underlying cause for why those 3 drivers pulled off?

Rjan:

simcor:

Juddian:

rob22888:

Juddian:
Don’t see how a wheel locking mechanism would have saved the life of someone who ends up behind a reversing lorry, but happy to be educated.

If I had to hazard a guess, if the system was working properly they wouldn’t have been able to open the dock door until there was a wagon there with it’s wheels locked in place.

I thought most places with the green/red light system worked like that too, door won’t open unless the green light is on.

Sadly not. Doors can be opened at out place as your hooking up to a trailer if a warehouse bod decides to check if its a loaded or empty trailer. Even though we have a dock door tag process which had to be followed.

But as with everything anything that involves human interaction there is the possibility of someone doing something that should not happen.

The only way to stop these sort of things happening is by wheel locking systems and the door cannot be opened til the vehicle is safely docked, and the truck cannot be released until the door is shut and even then it needs a time delay of at least several minutes to ensure the truck has finished parking or the truck has left before the door can be operated again.

If you have a time delay of several minutes when the driver pulls on, that’s a lot of wasted time, and encourages annoyance and poor attitudes because people don’t feel in control and able to get on with work when it may be clearly appropriate to do so.

The essence of what you’re trying to establish is the driver’s intentions. Making an inference from how long a vehicle has been stationary (or absent) is extremely haphazard. If you have an iron rule that a door must not be open during maneouvering, then what you really want is a signal from the driver that he has finished maneouvering. Having that system of clear communication that people participate in is best for safety, rather than treating the whole thing as a mechanical system.

This was discussed after a 3rd pull off on a red light at our place and suggestion was around 15k a bay for docking system. Turns out to be too expensive.

2 miles fine plus whatever it cost looking after the workers family. Makes 15k a bay seem a bargain after all.

Indeed. Just for curiosity, what was the underlying cause for why those 3 drivers pulled off?

First things first. When I say a mechanical aid is the only safe way to stop these sort of things happening that is for everyone whether driver or warehouse staff or indeed anyone else.

I’m not totally sure how the wheel locking systems work with the Dock doors. But the point is the door should only be able to be opened once the trailer is docked and the wheels are locked. Once the door is then shut the door should not be able to be opened again until the trailer has been moved forward and back onto the bay to lock the wheels again therefore allowing the door to be reopened.

This system also means the keys for the vehicle don’t need to be handed in and the driver should be able to sit in the vehicle.

That’s my point. While people can do things they shouldn’t and know better not to, they still take shortcuts and bend the rules. We’ve all done it to be a little quicker etc.

As for the second point, there are a number of reasons for the pull offs we’ve had.

Foreigners looking at the wrong traffic light being on the opposite side of the cab, drivers having second keys after handing in a fake set. Warehouse staff opening the door after a driver has checked its green and gone to pull off and the door has been opened at the last second to see if its an empty trailer or because they have forgotten something. Basically because people have not followed procedures or rules. Keys have even been given to drivers when the tag has not been returned to the office for that bay.

People make mistakes and do things to take shortcuts all the time. 99% of the time nothing goes wrong it’s only takes that 1% for it to go horribly wrong.

I’m surprised still we are allowed to walk between bays to stick keys in chutes or press buttons for traffic light systems, with the possibility of trucks reversing next to you.

How many times have you been at the side of your trailer and heard a vehicle reversing in next to you, are your senses heightened because your in a vulnerable place? What about drivers who are stressed by their job, stressed with family life or the many other reasons for being absent minded like being worked to the limit all the time.

It only takes a momentary lapse for something bad to happen.

simcor:

Rjan:
Indeed. Just for curiosity, what was the underlying cause for why those 3 drivers pulled off?

First things first. When I say a mechanical aid is the only safe way to stop these sort of things happening that is for everyone whether driver or warehouse staff or indeed anyone else.

I’m not totally sure how the wheel locking systems work with the Dock doors. But the point is the door should only be able to be opened once the trailer is docked and the wheels are locked. Once the door is then shut the door should not be able to be opened again until the trailer has been moved forward and back onto the bay to lock the wheels again therefore allowing the door to be reopened.

In my experience, the way these wheel-locking systems work is purely under the control of the warehouse operator. The door can be opened at any stage - the locking system is simply there to guarantee that, once the operator has taken control of the trailer, it cannot then be driven off without the operator himself releasing it. I’m not sure it’s really designed to prevent squashed heads as in this DHL case though - it’s more designed to prevent “fall-though” accidents where the trailer pulls off and the forklift or trolley ends up on the yard floor.

A lot of reasons why heads end up poked around the rear of trailers, is because warehouse staff are accustomed to poorly marked or aligned bays (I’ve seen some bay markings where you’d think the line painter was drunk when he did the job), or finicky dock levellers, and there’s a need to communicate with the driver to ensure that the trailer is properly aligned on the first go (perhaps because it’s very difficult to communicate with him if he isn’t guided and then gets it wrong).

I’ve often thought that, if not a doorway next to each bay, then in larger warehouses it would be a good practice for bays to be designed at least with a narrow window which a warehouse op can put his head and arm out of and communicate with a driver, and with attention bells or beacons provided for both parties. Provided the gaps between the bays are themselves wide enough to avoid a real risk of an op being injured by putting his head out of the window, then such a system would seem to solve almost all problems.

This system also means the keys for the vehicle don’t need to be handed in and the driver should be able to sit in the vehicle.

That’s my point. While people can do things they shouldn’t and know better not to, they still take shortcuts and bend the rules. We’ve all done it to be a little quicker etc.

Indeed. I would say though that shortcuts are somewhat more common when those involved feel that the procedures are grossly inefficient, and frequent rule-bending tends to arise when the rules themselves have not been designed realistically around the demands of the job.

Putting your head around a trailer to guide a driver, because there is no reasonable alternative inside a large warehouse with no convenient side door to speak to the driver, is a good example of that - I’ve been in some warehouses where it can seem like a 5 or 10 minute round-trip for an op to get outside to the driver, and while the op is outside, he can’t see the alignment of the trailer from the inside, and going back and forth possibly several times to get it right would start to look like a Benny Hill sketch (against the simple expedient of opening the bay door and shouting to the driver from inside).

As for the second point, there are a number of reasons for the pull offs we’ve had.

Foreigners looking at the wrong traffic light being on the opposite side of the cab,

I was wondering whether “looking at the wrong light” would come up. I’ve been in yards before now where the gap between each bay is very narrow, and at a glance both are fully visible in the mirrors and it has been difficult to be immediately sure (perhaps in the context of tiredness) which light I should have been looking at.

One site I recall had somehow located the lights in such a way that the nearside traffic lights were actually several inches closer to the bay than the offside light, suggesting by proximity that it was the nearside light that applied, but it was in fact the offside light that applied. It’s more common now to see arrows painted on beneath the lights to make it clear (although, in some cases, I have found that small stickers have been used which are themselves too small and poorly contrasted to see clearly from a trailer’s distance away!).

drivers having second keys after handing in a fake set.

Was it ever established why or how he was triggered to leave without collecting the fake set? Or was he gone for dust before that could be asked?

Warehouse staff opening the door after a driver has checked its green and gone to pull off and the door has been opened at the last second to see if its an empty trailer or because they have forgotten something. Basically because people have not followed procedures or rules. Keys have even been given to drivers when the tag has not been returned to the office for that bay.

Probably goes back to the benefit of having a side window and an attention bell on every bay, so that people can call for the attention of the other person and communicate easily about what they’re doing, and also the interlock based on an outside push-button where the driver has to pass control to the op to open the door, and the op has to pass control back to the driver for him to leave, and the door cannot be opened again once control has been handed back to the driver unless the op seeks his permission again.

People make mistakes and do things to take shortcuts all the time. 99% of the time nothing goes wrong it’s only takes that 1% for it to go horribly wrong.

I’m surprised still we are allowed to walk between bays to stick keys in chutes or press buttons for traffic light systems, with the possibility of trucks reversing next to you.

How many times have you been at the side of your trailer and heard a vehicle reversing in next to you, are your senses heightened because your in a vulnerable place? What about drivers who are stressed by their job, stressed with family life or the many other reasons for being absent minded like being worked to the limit all the time.

It only takes a momentary lapse for something bad to happen.

Agreed. If the gap is narrow (i.e. much less than a rear door’s width), then I tend to get out of the gap whilst any movement is occurring. Again, I would think it is a good practice for docking bays to be designed with at least half a trailer’s width between each bay, wide enough that rear doors can be opened once you are already in the bay. Some sites are so poorly designed in terms of maneouvering space that it would be lethal for anyone to be between two trailers whilst one is being maneouvered! But when drivers have to be able to get alongside the trailer, at least to operate the trailer suspension and parking brake, I can’t see any way that going alongside the trailer could be avoided.

Rjan:

simcor:

Rjan:
Indeed. Just for curiosity, what was the underlying cause for why those 3 drivers pulled off?

First things first. When I say a mechanical aid is the only safe way to stop these sort of things happening that is for everyone whether driver or warehouse staff or indeed anyone else.

I’m not totally sure how the wheel locking systems work with the Dock doors. But the point is the door should only be able to be opened once the trailer is docked and the wheels are locked. Once the door is then shut the door should not be able to be opened again until the trailer has been moved forward and back onto the bay to lock the wheels again therefore allowing the door to be reopened.

In my experience, the way these wheel-locking systems work is purely under the control of the warehouse operator. The door can be opened at any stage - the locking system is simply there to guarantee that, once the operator has taken control of the trailer, it cannot then be driven off without the operator himself releasing it. I’m not sure it’s really designed to prevent squashed heads as in this DHL case though - it’s more designed to prevent “fall-though” accidents where the trailer pulls off and the forklift or trolley ends up on the yard floor.

A lot of reasons why heads end up poked around the rear of trailers, is because warehouse staff are accustomed to poorly marked or aligned bays (I’ve seen some bay markings where you’d think the line painter was drunk when he did the job), or finicky dock levellers, and there’s a need to communicate with the driver to ensure that the trailer is properly aligned on the first go (perhaps because it’s very difficult to communicate with him if he isn’t guided and then gets it wrong).

I’ve often thought that, if not a doorway next to each bay, then in larger warehouses it would be a good practice for bays to be designed at least with a narrow window which a warehouse op can put his head and arm out of and communicate with a driver, and with attention bells or beacons provided for both parties. Provided the gaps between the bays are themselves wide enough to avoid a real risk of an op being injured by putting his head out of the window, then such a system would seem to solve almost all problems.

This system also means the keys for the vehicle don’t need to be handed in and the driver should be able to sit in the vehicle.

That’s my point. While people can do things they shouldn’t and know better not to, they still take shortcuts and bend the rules. We’ve all done it to be a little quicker etc.

Indeed. I would say though that shortcuts are somewhat more common when those involved feel that the procedures are grossly inefficient, and frequent rule-bending tends to arise when the rules themselves have not been designed realistically around the demands of the job.

Putting your head around a trailer to guide a driver, because there is no reasonable alternative inside a large warehouse with no convenient side door to speak to the driver, is a good example of that - I’ve been in some warehouses where it can seem like a 5 or 10 minute round-trip for an op to get outside to the driver, and while the op is outside, he can’t see the alignment of the trailer from the inside, and going back and forth possibly several times to get it right would start to look like a Benny Hill sketch (against the simple expedient of opening the bay door and shouting to the driver from inside).

As for the second point, there are a number of reasons for the pull offs we’ve had.

Foreigners looking at the wrong traffic light being on the opposite side of the cab,

I was wondering whether “looking at the wrong light” would come up. I’ve been in yards before now where the gap between each bay is very narrow, and at a glance both are fully visible in the mirrors and it has been difficult to be immediately sure (perhaps in the context of tiredness) which light I should have been looking at.

One site I recall had somehow located the lights in such a way that the nearside traffic lights were actually several inches closer to the bay than the offside light, suggesting by proximity that it was the nearside light that applied, but it was in fact the offside light that applied. It’s more common now to see arrows painted on beneath the lights to make it clear (although, in some cases, I have found that small stickers have been used which are themselves too small and poorly contrasted to see clearly from a trailer’s distance away!).

drivers having second keys after handing in a fake set.

Was it ever established why or how he was triggered to leave without collecting the fake set? Or was he gone for dust before that could be asked?

Warehouse staff opening the door after a driver has checked its green and gone to pull off and the door has been opened at the last second to see if its an empty trailer or because they have forgotten something. Basically because people have not followed procedures or rules. Keys have even been given to drivers when the tag has not been returned to the office for that bay.

Probably goes back to the benefit of having a side window and an attention bell on every bay, so that people can call for the attention of the other person and communicate easily about what they’re doing, and also the interlock based on an outside push-button where the driver has to pass control to the op to open the door, and the op has to pass control back to the driver for him to leave, and the door cannot be opened again once control has been handed back to the driver unless the op seeks his permission again.

People make mistakes and do things to take shortcuts all the time. 99% of the time nothing goes wrong it’s only takes that 1% for it to go horribly wrong.

I’m surprised still we are allowed to walk between bays to stick keys in chutes or press buttons for traffic light systems, with the possibility of trucks reversing next to you.

How many times have you been at the side of your trailer and heard a vehicle reversing in next to you, are your senses heightened because your in a vulnerable place? What about drivers who are stressed by their job, stressed with family life or the many other reasons for being absent minded like being worked to the limit all the time.

It only takes a momentary lapse for something bad to happen.

Agreed. If the gap is narrow (i.e. much less than a rear door’s width), then I tend to get out of the gap whilst any movement is occurring. Again, I would think it is a good practice for docking bays to be designed with at least half a trailer’s width between each bay, wide enough that rear doors can be opened once you are already in the bay. Some sites are so poorly designed in terms of maneouvering space that it would be lethal for anyone to be between two trailers whilst one is being maneouvered! But when drivers have to be able to get alongside the trailer, at least to operate the trailer suspension and parking brake, I can’t see any way that going alongside the trailer could be avoided.

And their in lies the problems, badly designed warehouses, badly implemented processes and relying on people to do the correct things all the time.

In an ideal world we all will do the right things to keep ourselves safe but the variables are far too many.

I’d like to see improvements but as with most things I guess they just won’t. But my point still stands.

If that happened at our place 300k for a wheel clamping system would be a lot cheaper than it was for that depot should something like that happen. And gives a possibility of something like that not being able to happen. Of course its not a guarantee but would have helped prevent it immensely.

I don’t know that particular site so can’t comment on what policies and whether it had a wheel clamping system or not. The article suggests they did so that I’d a worry if that is so.

I don’t know why but I was under the impression that the deceased was standing at ground level and got crushed at chest height?