Decker driver's first day ends in bridge disaster!

alamcculloch:
Trouble is its not just a couple of afternoons. Its five full days and some trainers don’t know their A$$e from their elbow, I have had to sit through some utter nonsense. How useful to know that a Ford Ka is the same motor as a Fiat 500.etc. I have learnt more from some of you fine fellows than I learnt on DCPC modules.

It’s only five full days if done in one lump every 5 years. I’m guilty of doing that myself to get it out the way (at the same time as my ADR), but it need not be so.

And I agree about the quality of trainers, but again nobody legislated that trainers in this game had to be third-rate peddlars of myth and hype.

Lots of them don’t even grasp the basics of man management like starting the classroom time with half a shandy and sandwiches for everyone, because it’s not just going to put even the grumpiest driver in a good mood on the day, but fellas will be talking about it positively before and after.

And it’s precisely based on how much time we all spend talking here - about bread and butter issues like drivers’ hours - that proves the need for drivers to spend time on the issues.

OK I will get my tin hat ready…

  1. What on earth has auto gear boxes got to do with hitting bridges? I fail completely to see the connection

  2. If you hunt about for the cheapest CPC training and go for that, what makes you think any driver would accept those fees to stand in front of a classroom and talk? There is a guy local to here who does CPC for £35 a day. I can bet you any money you like his trainer isn’t a driver, ex or otherwise.

Yes, I admit to some self-interest so moderators please feel free to delete this. I won’t be offended :smiley:

good_friend:
OK I will get my tin hat ready…

  1. What on earth has auto gear boxes got to do with hitting bridges? I fail completely to see the connection

  2. If you hunt about for the cheapest CPC training and go for that, what makes you think any driver would accept those fees to stand in front of a classroom and talk? There is a guy local to here who does CPC for £35 a day. I can bet you any money you like his trainer isn’t a driver, ex or otherwise.

Yes, I admit to some self-interest so moderators please feel free to delete this. I won’t be offended :smiley:

  1. I assume you are asking me because i was the one who answered another post and mentioned gearboxes in my post…which in context is very much in connection to why bridges are being hit, and vehicles smashed to buggery with general neglect/incompetence of job and equipment.

When lorries required some hand brain nous coordination and general interest in the job itself, ie actual lorry driving, then the job attracted in the most those who had taken an interest either from family involvement or an interest in machinery etc from a young age.

In other words they wanted to be lorry drivers, and no i don’t mean selecting D and pressing Resume and attending the steering wheel, i mean the whole job, which meant in the main loading and securing waterproofing the load you had on, and then having to actually drive the vehicle with all that involved, not just steer with one hand.
If someone wanted to be a lorry driver, then they took an interest, they wanted to do the job and they usually took a pride in doing it properly because they were doing what they always wanted to.

This often meant starting at a young age on vans or little lorries where the budding lorry driver cut their teeth, i assure you controlling a 60’s or 70’s Ford D series sat on Michelin X’s in the wet wasn’t far from skid pan training, the new driver learned how wind affected the vehicle, hills, corners you name it because the driver was learning that all important seat of the pants feel for what was happening at the point of contact with the road, you learned a lot about weight distribution, balancing grip and handling against being able to actually steer the thing, power steering was not an option.

As for bridges, well when you’d loaded then roped and sheeted your load you knew exactly what the height was because you’d been there, and every driver worth his or her salt had the bridge height map at their side, in the early days it was the Michelin map and later on the AA truckers atlas range, the latter of which is still the most clear to read of all the road atlas i’ve seen.
You planned your journeys taking all sorts of things into account, motorways were only on the major routes and dual carriageway by-passes few and far between, so route planning was something the earlier drivers took for granted, and still do.

That isn’t to say that young drivers now arn’t going to be as good or take a pride in their work, because you still to this day see young lads in their dads’s cars looking longingly and thoughtfully at your vehicle as they overtake, these will often be the proper lorry drivers of the future.
And all of us work with young drivers who are switched on and wanting to learn and progress, these are the genuine old hand lorry drivers of the future and bridge bashing will not feature in their lives.

Right, that’s how things were, remember our young drivers of the past had already learned much about vehicle control from their cars before they ever got into even a small 7.5 tonner, no abs, drum brakes, no power steering (even on artics until the mid/late 70’s in many cases), no traction aids of any sorts, they’d found by the time they’d had a car licence a month just how little grip there really is under the tyres in the wet, and how easy brake fade was to provoke if you overdid things.

Now where auto gearboxes come into the equation is simple, because the modern lorry requires little skill or coordination to operate (hill hold on an auto i ask you?), and if the modern lorry driver has come straight from their modern car, quite possibly with an auto box, then the only actual vehicle control learned might have been in the driving school car, yet these people are expected to cope with all that a double decker involves when all they’ve driven before is a bloody hatchback.

This is not knocking young drivers, it isn’t their fault things have got to where they are, and there are many younger drivers out there who like the older ones wanted to be lorry drivers when still in short trousers, and who take a pride in their work.

But this is where the automatic gearboxes and the simplicity and ease of the job generally now has been counter productive re learned skills, because its allowed those who should not have become lorry drivers to breeze into the job for a variety of reasons, not to have gone through the learning curve picking it up along the way as was once the case.
Auto boxes and all the other changes have allowed in those who would not at one time have made the grade, and in all likelihood wouldn’t have wanted the job anyway.

You don’t find the new drivers who take a pride in work and wanted to be lorry drivers smashing into bridges, i suspect the good young drivers cringe when they see ■■■■■■■■ like the alleged drugged artic driver going the wrong up a motorway causing mayhem.

Lorry driving is not for everyone, it never was it never will be, it’s just that the autobox (in the main but other changes have helped in this regard) made it possible for anyone to do it.
If you deskill an occupation, and lorry driving isn’t alone in this by a long chalk, then don’t be surprised when the inevitable happens.

Juddian:

good_friend:
OK I will get my tin hat ready…

  1. What on earth has auto gear boxes got to do with hitting bridges? I fail completely to see the connection

  2. If you hunt about for the cheapest CPC training and go for that, what makes you think any driver would accept those fees to stand in front of a classroom and talk? There is a guy local to here who does CPC for £35 a day. I can bet you any money you like his trainer isn’t a driver, ex or otherwise.

Yes, I admit to some self-interest so moderators please feel free to delete this. I won’t be offended :smiley:

  1. I assume you are asking me because i was the one who answered another post and mentioned gearboxes in my post…which in context is very much in connection to why bridges are being hit, and vehicles smashed to buggery with general neglect/incompetence of job and equipment.

When lorries required some hand brain nous coordination and general interest in the job itself, ie actual lorry driving, then the job attracted in the most those who had taken an interest either from family involvement or an interest in machinery etc from a young age.

In other words they wanted to be lorry drivers, and no i don’t mean selecting D and pressing Resume and attending the steering wheel, i mean the whole job, which meant in the main loading and securing waterproofing the load you had on, and then having to actually drive the vehicle with all that involved, not just steer with one hand.
If someone wanted to be a lorry driver, then they took an interest, they wanted to do the job and they usually took a pride in doing it properly because they were doing what they always wanted to.

This often meant starting at a young age on vans or little lorries where the budding lorry driver cut their teeth, i assure you controlling a 60’s or 70’s Ford D series sat on Michelin X’s in the wet wasn’t far from skid pan training, the new driver learned how wind affected the vehicle, hills, corners you name it because the driver was learning that all important seat of the pants feel for what was happening at the point of contact with the road, you learned a lot about weight distribution, balancing grip and handling against being able to actually steer the thing, power steering was not an option.

As for bridges, well when you’d loaded then roped and sheeted your load you knew exactly what the height was because you’d been there, and every driver worth his or her salt had the bridge height map at their side, in the early days it was the Michelin map and later on the AA truckers atlas range, the latter of which is still the most clear to read of all the road atlas i’ve seen.
You planned your journeys taking all sorts of things into account, motorways were only on the major routes and dual carriageway by-passes few and far between, so route planning was something the earlier drivers took for granted, and still do.

That isn’t to say that young drivers now arn’t going to be as good or take a pride in their work, because you still to this day see young lads in their dads’s cars looking longingly and thoughtfully at your vehicle as they overtake, these will often be the proper lorry drivers of the future.
And all of us work with young drivers who are switched on and wanting to learn and progress, these are the genuine old hand lorry drivers of the future and bridge bashing will not feature in their lives.

Right, that’s how things were, remember our young drivers of the past had already learned much about vehicle control from their cars before they ever got into even a small 7.5 tonner, no abs, drum brakes, no power steering (even on artics until the mid/late 70’s in many cases), no traction aids of any sorts, they’d found by the time they’d had a car licence a month just how little grip there really is under the tyres in the wet, and how easy brake fade was to provoke if you overdid things.

Now where auto gearboxes come into the equation is simple, because the modern lorry requires little skill or coordination to operate (hill hold on an auto i ask you?), and if the modern lorry driver has come straight from their modern car, quite possibly with an auto box, then the only actual vehicle control learned might have been in the driving school car, yet these people are expected to cope with all that a double decker involves when all they’ve driven before is a bloody hatchback.

This is not knocking young drivers, it isn’t their fault things have got to where they are, and there are many younger drivers out there who like the older ones wanted to be lorry drivers when still in short trousers, and who take a pride in their work.

But this is where the automatic gearboxes and the simplicity and ease of the job generally now has been counter productive re learned skills, because its allowed those who should not have become lorry drivers to breeze into the job for a variety of reasons, not to have gone through the learning curve picking it up along the way as was once the case.
Auto boxes and all the other changes have allowed in those who would not at one time have made the grade, and in all likelihood wouldn’t have wanted the job anyway.

You don’t find the new drivers who take a pride in work and wanted to be lorry drivers smashing into bridges, i suspect the good young drivers cringe when they see ■■■■■■■■ like the alleged drugged artic driver going the wrong up a motorway causing mayhem.

Lorry driving is not for everyone, it never was it never will be, it’s just that the autobox (in the main but other changes have helped in this regard) made it possible for anyone to do it.
If you deskill an occupation, and lorry driving isn’t alone in this by a long chalk, then don’t be surprised when the inevitable happens.

+1,my sentiments entirely,i worked for a guy in Ireland and his 3 sons all loved transport and lorries,they are now all,good,competent drivers,and they 24/22 and 19 and they love the job.

Juddian:
When lorries required some hand brain nous coordination and general interest in the job itself, ie actual lorry driving, then the job attracted in the most those who had taken an interest either from family involvement or an interest in machinery etc from a young age.

Isn’t the main difference in years gone by that most drivers just weren’t driving high trailers around all the time, nor on a constant merry-go-round of different routes, trailers, vehicles, and employers?

Even the tallest cabs today (which are generally much taller than in the past) are rarely much higher than what, 12 foot, and I’ve rarely carried any load on a curtainsider that exceeds the height of the cab. That will get you under almost any but the most extreme height restriction, if you’re carrying a sheeted load on a flatbed.

Bridge strikes are not much to do with a loss of skill in my view, and everything to do with employers organising work in a much more high-risk fashion.

Rjan:

Juddian:
When lorries required some hand brain nous coordination and general interest in the job itself, ie actual lorry driving, then the job attracted in the most those who had taken an interest either from family involvement or an interest in machinery etc from a young age.

Isn’t the main difference in years gone by that most drivers just weren’t driving high trailers around all the time, nor on a constant merry-go-round of different routes, trailers, vehicles, and employers?

Even the tallest cabs today (which are generally much taller than in the past) are rarely much higher than what, 12 foot, and I’ve rarely carried any load on a curtainsider that exceeds the height of the cab. That will get you under almost any but the most extreme height restriction, if you’re carrying a sheeted load on a flatbed.

Bridge strikes are not much to do with a loss of skill in my view, and everything to do with employers organising work in a much more high-risk fashion.

Fair comments, and yes back in the days of flatbeds you only really carried high loads when they were packaging or other lightish stuff, or maybe tractors out of Basildon, even paper reels three high would only be around 13’6" iirc, car transporters were very specialised back then and (thankfully still the case) very unlikely to get a start unless an experienced driver with a proven history already.
But the number of low bridges encountered were much higher due to the lack of motorways or dualling.
No M25 so all journeys anywhere around the South East involved seriously complicated routing, no A14 either making Market Harborough alone a difficult place to pass by at anything over 13’3".

No the chances were you didn’t have a really high vehicle at first in the past, and the operator in this particular case should have known better than to send a new driver out alone with a DD on his first day.

Once again though bloody satnav rears its ugly head in this case, how much better it would have been for the lad to have planned his own route when the low bridge would have been shouting at him from the page of his bridge height map.
Nothing against satnav as it should be used, as a street atlas, as a useful pointer at ill marked roads and junctions, and as confirmation of the route the driver had already planned, what it shouldn’t be is trusted or followed blindly.

Once again though bloody satnav rears its ugly head in this case, how much better it would have been for the lad to have planned his own route when the low bridge would have been shouting at him from the page of his bridge height map.
Nothing against satnav as it should be used, as a street atlas, as a useful pointer at ill marked roads and junctions, and as confirmation of the route the driver had already planned, what it shouldn’t be is trusted or followed blindly.
[/quote]
Unfortunately most of these clowns there putting behind the wheel these days that’s all there capable of doing.
We have them that go to Europe without even a map, complete and utter idiots who are clueless and have no idea or direction there going

So for those of you that hark back to the good old days of compass and sextants do you not think that if sat navs were available in the 70’s you wouldn’t have used them. It’s not the fault of technology but the people that are using it, also if his height marker was set correctly and his eyes were working a bit of brain power would of alerted him to the issue approaching him. It’s a simple thing of lack of training and lack of concentration/awareness on the employers & the drivers part, in my opinion the employer being at greater fault. I have an atlas but in all honesty have never needed to use it, my sat nav coupled with the use of google maps steetview to pinpoint my destination works 99% of the time including central London. I do agree that there are alot of idiots that are drivers but to be fair they are not all young and even an idiot can change gears :wink:

Juddian

Goodness you write well. I do see your point I just wonder whether the ‘dumbing down’ of the job is really to lay at the feet of auto boxes or the myriad other changes as well?

BTW my first ‘proper’ horsebox was an old Ford ‘D’ series which was certainly an experience to drive although iirc it only had 4 gears. The police tried to arrest my (nearly) FiL once when he took it to Calne for plating and they thought he was a traveller to Stonehenge

good_friend:
Juddian

Goodness you write well. I do see your point I just wonder whether the ‘dumbing down’ of the job is really to lay at the feet of auto boxes or the myriad other changes as well?

BTW my first ‘proper’ horsebox was an old Ford ‘D’ series which was certainly an experience to drive although iirc it only had 4 gears. The police tried to arrest my (nearly) FiL once when he took it to Calne for plating and they thought he was a traveller to Stonehenge

No Good Friend, i waffle :blush:

I agree it wasn’t just the move to auto boxes, but the dumbing down IMHO accelerated from that point onwards at a rate not seen before and drew in everyone from operators to training/examiners.

Rjan:

OVLOV JAY:
Things like this prove what a farce the dcpc is. We get to sit there and listen to someone without experience tell you how to do the job you’ve done unscathed for 20-30 years, meanwhile rookies make glaringly obvious mistakes like this. I suppose 35 hours of first aid could come in handy if you hurt yourself doing it

The DCPC is supposed to be in addition to sensible planning and development of new starts, not instead of it!

And seriously, if you can’t find something useful to talk about for a couple of afternoons a year, then either you should become a trainer and spread your vast wisdom to others (a quality it seems that many trainers themselves lack), or else you don’t realise how much you need a couple of afternoons of talk! :laughing:

Well it’s clearly not working then, is it? If planks like that manage to flat pack a decker after a couple of shifts. You’re usually wired up when you start out, well I know I was anyway. But then I was driving a foden with a crash box around the capital on my first week after passing, so had no choice but to stay alert.

You should leave the cooking sherry alone old fruit

OVLOV JAY:

Rjan:

OVLOV JAY:
Things like this prove what a farce the dcpc is. We get to sit there and listen to someone without experience tell you how to do the job you’ve done unscathed for 20-30 years, meanwhile rookies make glaringly obvious mistakes like this. I suppose 35 hours of first aid could come in handy if you hurt yourself doing it

The DCPC is supposed to be in addition to sensible planning and development of new starts, not instead of it!

And seriously, if you can’t find something useful to talk about for a couple of afternoons a year, then either you should become a trainer and spread your vast wisdom to others (a quality it seems that many trainers themselves lack), or else you don’t realise how much you need a couple of afternoons of talk! :laughing:

Well it’s clearly not working then, is it? If planks like that manage to flat pack a decker after a couple of shifts. You’re usually wired up when you start out, well I know I was anyway. But then I was driving a foden with a crash box around the capital on my first week after passing, so had no choice but to stay alert.

You should leave the cooking sherry alone old fruit

The most likely cause is not inattentiveness but being mentally overwhelmed or fatigued.

Juddian:

yourhavingalarf:
Something changed…

I don’t know what and I can’t say when but something is definately different with the way the newer drivers approach the job. I’m not going to get into the Prat-Nav argument or manual Vs auto boxes but the older generation of drivers had to think for themselves.
If a problem came up with directions, the load, weather conditions, blocked roads or what ever other hitch you encountered, you just found a way to deal with the problem and crack on. You couldn’t just pick up a phone, you HAD to solve the problem yourself. We certainly didn’t have an army of college graduates who couldn’t spot a diesel pump if you shoved their face into it. We had gaffers who told you how far you could take the mickey and if you went further you were looking for a new job.
I do feel for this bloke and he’s genuinely upset about what’s happened but I can’t fathom out why. Just one look at that bridge should have had alarm bells ringing but it didn’t. One of the things you need to do this job is a basic spatial awareness and it’s something so many drivers seem to lack. In the same way that I’ll never be a concert violinist, some people will never have what it takes to be a lorry driver. I’ve came across many bridges that I was too high for, it’s just something I automatically think about. Been to loads of places I couldn’t get to or into or down some godawfully tight lane and never come unstuck. Just one look from where I’m sitting and I know if it’ll go or not.
It’s only a matter of time before a coach full of nuns taking puppies to a primary school gets tangled up in a bridge strike.

The big change happened about 15 years ago, when in their infinite wisdom they took away the gearstick and put a switch in its place, ok the dumbing down had started a bit before that when constant mesh boxes that needed a bit of nous and control to get the revs right for the next gear were replaced with synchros that needed no such meshing, but the rot really set in when auto boxes took over.

From then the industry has been chasing it’s tail stuffing more and more electronics in the vehicles in order to counter the previous dumbing down move, we’ve now reached the stage that vehicles have to brake for the sods and make weird noises when they’re about to drive off the road, the next stage is the vehicle itself interfering in the steering…what could possibly go wrong :unamused:

The training industry aided and abetted the deskilling of the industry, and the DoT aided them in that by allowing auto boxes to be used in instruction and tests, and then to cap it all gave auto passes a bloody manual licence, you couldn’t make this crap up.
Drivers arn’t being trained to control their vehicles as lorries should be, they are being trained to pass a test on a large car, what hope have the youngsters got.

The operators in the industry played their part by removing unwanted non blue sky thinking time served transport management, and in too many places replaced them with layers of power point box ticking admin that wouldn’t know one end of a lorry from the other, they appointed driver trainers that were good at filling in forms but in too many cases haven’t a bloody clue about actual vehicle control…i’ve worked with some of the driver trainers when they were just drivers, Jesus wept some of the sods i wouldn’t have employed them to push a wheelbarrow around but they’ve ended up with the yay or nay whether a driver (who might have two lifetimes of driving under his/her belt) gets the job or not.
Some of us old hands try to help those who want to learn a bit more hands on practical stuff, but this is what the driver trainers should be doing.

Too many operators take the easy option, managing by a combination of one size fits and lowest common denominator, so in a yard comprised of 30% drivers, 30% couldn’t a give monkeys, 30% steering wheel attendees, and 10% blithering idiots, the job will be set out camera’d up and made chimp like in order to cater for the 10%, and the other 90% are assumed to be as useless.
It doesn’t take much imagination to see where such a place is heading.

Until all of the above changes, and it won’t, the slide to the bottom will carry happily on.

Did the dumbing down start with synchromesh boxes ? Or are the swedes to blame ,or was who ever invented the engine :laughing: I preferred my horse n cart to the Foden :laughing: :laughing: :wink:

Juddian:

good_friend:
OK I will get my tin hat ready…

  1. What on earth has auto gear boxes got to do with hitting bridges? I fail completely to see the connection

  2. If you hunt about for the cheapest CPC training and go for that, what makes you think any driver would accept those fees to stand in front of a classroom and talk? There is a guy local to here who does CPC for £35 a day. I can bet you any money you like his trainer isn’t a driver, ex or otherwise.

Yes, I admit to some self-interest so moderators please feel free to delete this. I won’t be offended :smiley:

  1. I assume you are asking me because i was the one who answered another post and mentioned gearboxes in my post…which in context is very much in connection to why bridges are being hit, and vehicles smashed to buggery with general neglect/incompetence of job and equipment.

When lorries required some hand brain nous coordination and general interest in the job itself, ie actual lorry driving, then the job attracted in the most those who had taken an interest either from family involvement or an interest in machinery etc from a young age.

In other words they wanted to be lorry drivers, and no i don’t mean selecting D and pressing Resume and attending the steering wheel, i mean the whole job, which meant in the main loading and securing waterproofing the load you had on, and then having to actually drive the vehicle with all that involved, not just steer with one hand.
If someone wanted to be a lorry driver, then they took an interest, they wanted to do the job and they usually took a pride in doing it properly because they were doing what they always wanted to.

This often meant starting at a young age on vans or little lorries where the budding lorry driver cut their teeth, i assure you controlling a 60’s or 70’s Ford D series sat on Michelin X’s in the wet wasn’t far from skid pan training, the new driver learned how wind affected the vehicle, hills, corners you name it because the driver was learning that all important seat of the pants feel for what was happening at the point of contact with the road, you learned a lot about weight distribution, balancing grip and handling against being able to actually steer the thing, power steering was not an option.

As for bridges, well when you’d loaded then roped and sheeted your load you knew exactly what the height was because you’d been there, and every driver worth his or her salt had the bridge height map at their side, in the early days it was the Michelin map and later on the AA truckers atlas range, the latter of which is still the most clear to read of all the road atlas i’ve seen.
You planned your journeys taking all sorts of things into account, motorways were only on the major routes and dual carriageway by-passes few and far between, so route planning was something the earlier drivers took for granted, and still do.

That isn’t to say that young drivers now arn’t going to be as good or take a pride in their work, because you still to this day see young lads in their dads’s cars looking longingly and thoughtfully at your vehicle as they overtake, these will often be the proper lorry drivers of the future.
And all of us work with young drivers who are switched on and wanting to learn and progress, these are the genuine old hand lorry drivers of the future and bridge bashing will not feature in their lives.

Right, that’s how things were, remember our young drivers of the past had already learned much about vehicle control from their cars before they ever got into even a small 7.5 tonner, no abs, drum brakes, no power steering (even on artics until the mid/late 70’s in many cases), no traction aids of any sorts, they’d found by the time they’d had a car licence a month just how little grip there really is under the tyres in the wet, and how easy brake fade was to provoke if you overdid things.

Now where auto gearboxes come into the equation is simple, because the modern lorry requires little skill or coordination to operate (hill hold on an auto i ask you?), and if the modern lorry driver has come straight from their modern car, quite possibly with an auto box, then the only actual vehicle control learned might have been in the driving school car, yet these people are expected to cope with all that a double decker involves when all they’ve driven before is a bloody hatchback.

This is not knocking young drivers, it isn’t their fault things have got to where they are, and there are many younger drivers out there who like the older ones wanted to be lorry drivers when still in short trousers, and who take a pride in their work.

But this is where the automatic gearboxes and the simplicity and ease of the job generally now has been counter productive re learned skills, because its allowed those who should not have become lorry drivers to breeze into the job for a variety of reasons, not to have gone through the learning curve picking it up along the way as was once the case.
Auto boxes and all the other changes have allowed in those who would not at one time have made the grade, and in all likelihood wouldn’t have wanted the job anyway.

You don’t find the new drivers who take a pride in work and wanted to be lorry drivers smashing into bridges, i suspect the good young drivers cringe when they see ■■■■■■■■ like the alleged drugged artic driver going the wrong up a motorway causing mayhem.

Lorry driving is not for everyone, it never was it never will be, it’s just that the autobox (in the main but other changes have helped in this regard) made it possible for anyone to do it.
If you deskill an occupation, and lorry driving isn’t alone in this by a long chalk, then don’t be surprised when the inevitable happens.

Juddian,

For someone who seems to know so much about lorries, well you do realise that an automated manual transmission in a truck is a manual box that is controlled automatically don’t you?

It’s not an auto box that uses a torque converter but a manual box with clutch plates that the gear change is controlled by wizardry.

There is a world of difference between a genuine automatic gearbox and an automatic manual transmission.

Hence for one having Hill hold nowadays as that stops people burning the clutches out on the trucks.

How cab hill hold be there to stop a screwdriver burning the clutch out? Hill Hold, when activated, comes on when the truck is stationary and the driver is using the service brake.

All hill hold is for, is to stop the lorry rolling back when a driver too lazy to use the handbrake, hill starts.

Exactly as you describe lazy people who hold it on the accelerator without using the park brake or foot brake.

And obviously hill hold stops you rolling backwards as it keeps the brakes applies for a couple of seconds, the same way it stops people with manual transmissions in cars riding the clutch on a hill.

:confused:

If you’re holding the truck on the accelerator… hill hold won’t work, will it. Because it works off the service brakes, and comes on once the truck is stationary.

slowlane:
:?

If you’re holding the truck on the accelerator… hill hold won’t work, will it. Because it works off the service brakes, and comes on once the truck is stationary.

Yes we all know hill hold works off the service brake.

However lazy people will neither use the footbrake or the handbreak to hold the vehicle on a hill, lots will hold it on the biting point (which is what leaving it in gear and gently squeezing the accelerator will do in an auto truck) ready to set off, premature wear to the clutch.

So by adding hill hold to vehicles people are more likely to at least hold it on the footbrake rather than using the clutch, and also won’t roll back while getting the biting point.

The same principle applies to most truck automated gearboxes, the ecu controls the clutch plate and gear selection mechanism, at least that’s how it was explained to me by a fitter.

Very few auto trucks will creep without pressing the accelerator like a proper automatic gearbox will with a torque converter as soon as the brake is released while in gear.

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Part of the problem here is the UK system of training & testing LGV/HGV drivers - it’s simply not robust enough. No idea what other countries do but ours is too ‘slack’!

I say that as I enrolled for an ‘all in’ course back in 2006 for £2400 guaranteed ‘Class 1 from car licence’. That deal was indeed ‘all in’ and included an initial medical, theory test, one week of rigid training, test, second theory test, one week of artic training & a test. In fact the course actually included 3 x tests per class if you failed the first two in each…in other words I could have done six tests in total for the price. As luck and serious determination would have it I passed both first time all within 5 weeks.

Within a day of receiving my class 1 licence in the post I was on an agency night shift with a fully loaded artic under my bum and drove many different outfits for many companies over the next six months, mostly at night…including double deckers which I remember at the time scared the life out of me. I definitely had a few close shaves in that period and most related to misjudging how a loaded trailer handles. I often felt I should not have been allowed to drive what I was driving with such non-existent experience. Until then I was never a can or truck driver of any type.

Bottom line - I survived and learnt a huge amount quickly, including how to safely handle a heavily-loaded trailer which was something very new to me having passed two tests in rapid succession in an empty vehicle as they were in those days.

The British testing system would benefit from some kind of logbook system which ensured new drivers learnt more about what they are really doing before progressing. New drivers should simply not be able to do ‘anything’ like I was.

I realise there are plenty of muppets out there driving artics whilst tired and whilst relying on satnav, twiddling with their phones, clueless, not paying attention, all of what everyone has previously said. Auto boxes may well have attracted more people into the industry than years back, who knows. However if we admit the job is ‘easier’ than it used to be and is attracting ‘different’ people than traditionally then we need to rethink the training process perhaps…to either weed out the clowns early/safely or to train them in the right way and save us all.

Scannyfanny.

Scannyfanny:
Part of the problem here is the UK system of training & testing LGV/HGV drivers - it’s simply not robust enough. No idea what other countries do but ours is too ‘slack’!

I say that as I enrolled for an ‘all in’ course back in 2006 for £2400 guaranteed ‘Class 1 from car licence’. That deal was indeed ‘all in’ and included an initial medical, theory test, one week of rigid training, test, second theory test, one week of artic training & a test. In fact the course actually included 3 x tests per class if you failed the first two in each…in other words I could have done six tests in total for the price. As luck and serious determination would have it I passed both first time all within 5 weeks.

Within a day of receiving my class 1 licence in the post I was on an agency night shift with a fully loaded artic under my bum and drove many different outfits for many companies over the next six months, mostly at night…including double deckers which I remember at the time scared the life out of me. I definitely had a few close shaves in that period and most related to misjudging how a loaded trailer handles. I often felt I should not have been allowed to drive what I was driving with such non-existent experience. Until then I was never a can or truck driver of any type.

Bottom line - I survived and learnt a huge amount quickly, including how to safely handle a heavily-loaded trailer which was something very new to me having passed two tests in rapid succession in an empty vehicle as they were in those days.

The British testing system would benefit from some kind of logbook system which ensured new drivers learnt more about what they are really doing before progressing. New drivers should simply not be able to do ‘anything’ like I was.

I realise there are plenty of muppets out there driving artics whilst tired and whilst relying on satnav, twiddling with their phones, clueless, not paying attention, all of what everyone has previously said. Auto boxes may well have attracted more people into the industry than years back, who knows. However if we admit the job is ‘easier’ than it used to be and is attracting ‘different’ people than traditionally then we need to rethink the training process perhaps…to either weed out the clowns early/safely or to train them in the right way and save us all.

Scannyfanny.

When I started you could take your Class1 without even having a full car licence, which was a quicker process than what you done.
I didn’t do it personally, I started UK long distance on a Transit pick up for a few months, so I learned a lot about routes etc prior to getting my Class 1, I also done a few months on a rigid.
We need to get away from Car drivers with Class 1s, to proper Truck drivers once again instead.
I think a lot more theory should be put into the training, incorporate the dcpc in there also, with a test. (instead of getting guys with vast experience to endure the ■■■■ thing every so often)

Take in stuff like overtaking correctlly (without cutting in :smiling_imp: ) lane discipline, non sat nav route planning theory courses, incorporating low bridge routes, and drum in empathy and courtesy on road towards other truck drivers…(never thought I’d hear myself say that as it was just ‘‘The done thing’’ once)

They could also make a rule whereby you progress to driving a artic after say 6 months to a year experience on a rigid.
Also automatic bans with re.tests for bridge bashing .
In other words make it harder to obtain a full licence, instead of learning how to pass a test and get it as a formality. . :bulb:

We have to get away from allowing bell ends to obtain full Class 1s to clean the job up, as it is those 2hats that give us a bad name.