Daf, what have you done?

[coffeeholic]

I am a big fan of the i-shift, my last two trucks had it, and in recent weeks I’ve driven the auto versions of Merc, Scania and Daf. The Merc and the Scania I got on with no problem, as I used to do with the Volvo. Each was a little different and they each had their own way of being driven to get the best from them, but once you had them sussed out it was fine. The Daf was a different story. The one I had was an 85 and I just could not get on with the box, no matter what I did. Don’t know if it was me, the box or a bit of both but there was a compatibility issue between us. I read the manual and followed its instructions but still there were issues. Trying to reverse smoothly was nigh on impossible. I also didn’t like the way that about 5-10 seconds after coming to a halt, at a junction or lights, there would be a big clunk, big enough to rock the cab.

It might have been my fault, it might have been a problem with the box but whatever it was I am in no hurry to drive one again, whereas I don’t mind driving the offerings from Volvo, Scania or Merc at all.

[Lucy]

Give it time, Neil. The Mercs and Scanias both, IIRC, have clutches, which takes out the hardest bit to master. The Volvo box behaves more like a true Auto by all accounts, hence no rollback issues. DAFs, Ivecos and Renaults all have versions of the ZF AS-Tronic in them (the software varies, hence you get Eurotronic2 in the Stralis for example), and are full-on AMT. They have to be learnt as a whole new skill, and although you may still then hate them (I’ve heard the Renault version is particularly bad), you won’t have rollback or creeping problems. Proper AMT has a clutch-bite point just the same as a Manual, it’s just on the throttle rather than it’s own pedal…And getting the gears to do as they’re told just involves Semi mode and learning to “preselect” to make it change at the right time - does the DAF have a “Semi” feature?

Another piece of proof for my theory - we all know our man above is no Newbie.

I don’t know…I guess I’m “lucky” in that our old Eurosheds had first generation Eurotronic (AS-Tronic) boxes in and they really were dire, even when you knew what you were doing. There are loading bays all over the UK with yellow paint on where our drivers had been asked to “back up a couple more inches”, as well Forkies who were lucky to escape with their legs…No-one ever believed us when we told them it was 2 feet or nothing…and the only way 'round a roundabout when empty in the wet was to rev the nuts off them and hope that the wheels would bite just enough for you to keep coasting in between bursts of traction - we got through that many tyres, ATS gave us a dedicated tyre-fitter… …The newer boxes are a dream, by comparison.

Maybe I should track down X573 APY and use it to train people in AMT…after a week of that you’d be begging for the DAF, trust me…

My Eurotronic2 equipped Stralis goes any day (lease is up). Personally, I’m gutted. And that’s from someone who hated it every bit as much as Rob hates ASTronic above when she first got it.

[coffeeholic]

Lucy:
Give it time, Neil. The Mercs and Scanias both, IIRC, have clutches,

The Scania did, just for stopping and starting, or for a ‘controlled stall’ when you forget you need to dip the clutch for stopping after you haven’t used it for any changes. The Merc I was referring to didn’t, although I have driven the Merc version that has the clutch, pre select the gear then dip clutch for the change.

Lucy:
you won’t have rollback or creeping problems.

Neither of those things was a problem, stopping rollback is just a matter of balancing throttle response with park brake release, as with the Volvo or the Merc, but then you know that. Rollback might have been a bonus. Reversing it was either nothing or “get the hell out the way, and do it quickly fopr you own safety.” That was regardless of using normal or ‘tortoise’ reverse mode.

Lucy:
does the DAF have a “Semi” feature?

It has a manual mode but I couldn’t find a ‘semi’ mode and no mention of it in the manual. This was a hire motor though so it could have been abused but it just wasn’t nice to drive. Didn’t matter if you were hard on the accelerator or gentle the changes happened pretty much exactly the same, and mostly they were rough and clunky and noisy.

[Lucy]

What a shame, when the same box with different software works so well in the Iveco. Am going to have to get a go in one of these DAFs, methinks…What you’re desciibing sounds very much like Eurotronic1, as we had in the Eurosheds.

Ps. I suspect the Manual mode equates to Semi on the Eurotronic2.

[rob_k]

I’m glad there have been some newcomers out of the woodwork also stating that they find the DAF AStronic absolute boIIox as well. It really is dire. At least with the other autos you can hold them on the clutch. With the DAF, you can’t. If you’ve got the hand brake off, you’re either moving forwards or you’re rolling back. There is no in between.

The Stralis is about as bad as the other autos. It’s also slow to change and you can’t change up more than 1 gear at a time in manual (or is that the old Iveco I’m thinking of?) and I seriously dislike it changing down a gear going down hills so as to get enough revs up for the retarder. It’s a good idea in principle, but when you’re only lightly loaded the retarder has enough revs to hold the speed back in top gear without needing to drop it down a peg.

The Stralis also has the same problems the others suffer with regards close proximity movements.

Re the Volvo Idle Shift, I find it’s best used in manual all the time and then a quick flick back to auto for roundabouts and traffic lights when it will select the right gear for you to save toggling down through the box with the paddle.

[daneinter]

I think its just a matter of getting used to them and learning their little quirks. I remember the first time I used the old merc EPS semi auto. when I got back after my first trip I rubbished it in the tea room and an old hand took me out for a run and gave me a 30 minute lesson and after that it was the muts nut. All I was doing was not being gentle enough with it, you had to preselect with one finger and stroke it forward where before i was riving at it. Drop it in neutral at a doughnut and it selected the exit gear. I loved them.

[Lasurazes]

daneinter:
I think its just a matter of getting used to them and learning their little quirks. I remember the first time I used the old merc EPS semi auto. when I got back after my first trip I rubbished it in the tea room and an old hand took me out for a run and gave me a 30 minute lesson and after that it was the muts nut. All I was doing was not being gentle enough with it, you had to preselect with one finger and stroke it forward where before i was riving at it. Drop it in neutral at a doughnut and it selected the exit gear. I loved them.

Your right dane, more haste less speed.
All these manufacturers have spent millions on these gear boxes, testing and re-testing and with a wee bit of training, pateince, you get used to them and are usually brilliant.

I drove several powerliners, I had one of the very early ones with the wee switch under the gas pedal that gave you that little extra humph.
■■■■ me it even chose the correct gear for you when approaching something like a roundabout, yes it took a little getting used to but after a day or 3 I thought it was the mutts.

These people who have had their class one for less than 10 years who think they know it all, they get a new vehicle, make a few mistakes and then go and blame the wagon, you know what they say a bad workman always blames his tools.

I’d like to see them drive an old Atki Borderer with a back to front box or an Antar with a crash box they would ■■■■ themselves.

I’ll put my hand up, I weas the same, that was untill I spent some time with a defensive driving trainer at a firm I worked for, god did he open my eyes.
After I learned to use the vehicle correctly I became less tired and stress my fuel figures improved dramatically.

I haven’t driven an artic for 3 or 4 years now and am about to go back for a couple of days a week whilst I’m at college, the first thing I asked for when he offered me the job was half a days training in the vehicle I’ll be using.

[rob_k]

airhorn98:
I’d like to see them drive an old Atki Borderer with a back to front box or an Antar with a crash box they would [zb] themselves.

Would gladly show you how to do it, horn . I cut my teeth on both boxes although you can give me the backwards box over the crash one any day .

[mike-c]

Rob K:

airhorn98:
I’d like to see them drive an old Atki Borderer with a back to front box or an Antar with a crash box they would [zb] themselves.

Would gladly show you how to do it, horn . I cut my teeth on both boxes although you can give me the backwards box over the crash one any day .

I’ve just found myself a sig!!!

[Lasurazes]

Mike-C:

Rob K:

airhorn98:
I’d like to see them drive an old Atki Borderer with a back to front box or an Antar with a crash box they would [zb] themselves.

Would gladly show you how to do it, horn . I cut my teeth on both boxes although you can give me the backwards box over the crash one any day .

I’ve just found myself a sig!!!

pmfsl rofl that was the best one yet why didn’t anyone tell me he only passed class 1, 5 years ago how many are these are you allowed is that enough yet

[rob_k]

Mike-C:

Rob K:

airhorn98:
I’d like to see them drive an old Atki Borderer with a back to front box or an Antar with a crash box they would [zb] themselves.

Would gladly show you how to do it, horn . I cut my teeth on both boxes although you can give me the backwards box over the crash one any day .

I’ve just found myself a sig!!!

I never said they were from those wagons . First one was in an old V-reg Merc, from the late 70s/early 80s?, where the positions were back to front and the crash box from was an old Foden.

[Lasurazes]

Rob K:

airhorn98:
I’d like to see them drive an old Atki Borderer with a back to front box or an Antar with a crash box they would [zb] themselves.

Would gladly show you how to do it, horn . I cut my teeth on both boxes although you can give me the backwards box over the crash one any day .

Show me how to do what Rob, drive?

I aint driven an artic in 3 years and have still done more miles in reverse than you will ever do. Actually Rob which planet do you come from.

For someone who has driven class one for only five years you seem to have done a hell of a lot.
In fact you still haven’t served your apprenticeship yet.
Over the last 20 years I have met so many like you, been there done it and always a little better than you.
Carry on Rob your funny and amusing, just do me a favour stop presuming you know better than a lot of people on here. You don’t, have opinions yes, every one has. But don’t go saying thing like you cut your teeth on them when you only started driving class 1, 5 years ago

[rob_k]

READ THE POST AGAIN [ZB]

[Lasurazes]

Rob K:
READ THE POST AGAIN [ZB]

Don’t need to Rob I knew exactly what you meant you do it in every post you put people down but hate it when someone does it to you.
You need to take a step back and disengage you brain before putting your fingers in gear.
I have read a lot of your posts and you never take any advice, some from very experienced drivers.

You think you know everything but you don’t, I don’t know everything but the differance is I don’t profess to know everything

[Lucy]

Rob K:
I’m glad there have been some newcomers out of the woodwork also stating that they find the DAF AStronic absolute boIIox as well. It really is dire. At least with the other autos you can hold them on the clutch. With the DAF, you can’t. If you’ve got the hand brake off, you’re either moving forwards or you’re rolling back. There is no in between.

That again sounds a lot like Eurotronic1. Please don’t tell me that DAF are using software that even Iveco kicked into touch■■?

The Stralis is about as bad as the other autos. It’s also slow to change

Not true if you learn when to change it - in Semi, move the stick about 200rpm before you want the change…In Auto use the throttle to “blip” the revs and force the change. Both techniques take a bit of practice, but are pretty ■■■■ foolproof once mastered…Just think of it as preselecting rather than actually changing - it’ll still do it quicker than any human making the same change on what is, after all, a constant mesh box.

and you can’t change up more than 1 gear at a time in manual (or is that the old Iveco I’m thinking of?)

No idea. Both Eurotronic1 and 2 allow block changes of two gears at a time. Then for bigger shifts, with the older box you held in the grey button as you changed and it would give you a gear which would work with whatever revs you were putting on (bearing in mind that the old box wasn’t full AMT, only Semi). The newer box actually does this for itself automatically in whatever mode you’re in (Semi/Auto, which is what the same grey button is now there for), particularly handy when you’re steaming into roundabouts.
Don’t forget that the Cursor is a spinning engine, not a lugger, so it’s supposed to rev it’s nuts off when you come up through the lower gears.

and I seriously dislike it changing down a gear going down hills so as to get enough revs up for the retarder. It’s a good idea in principle, but when you’re only lightly loaded the retarder has enough revs to hold the speed back in top gear without needing to drop it down a peg.

Simple solution. Whack it into Semi to hold a gear.

The Stralis also has the same problems the others suffer with regards close proximity movements.

Sorry Rob, but that’s just lack of practice. As an agency driver, you simply haven’t had chance to work with the box for a long enough time to master it. I’m not trying to teach you to ■■■■ eggs here, btw…I just hate to see people writing off a very good AMT gearbox through lack of training and not having had time to master the skill - neither of which are by any means your fault. It’s just a crying shame, is all. I’ve had two years with the Stralis now, with 6 months on the older box before that. I can even get under a heavily loaded trailer without slamming now if I pay attention to what I’m doing… ( ). It just takes time to master, like any new skill.

[coffeeholic]

Lucy:

Rob K:
With the DAF, you can’t. If you’ve got the hand brake off, you’re either moving forwards or you’re rolling back. There is no in between.

That again sounds a lot like Eurotronic1. Please don’t tell me that DAF are using software that even Iveco kicked into touch■■?

Tha wasn’t an issue with the one I drove, in fact the opposite could be said to be true - there was too much in between.

Lucy:

and you can’t change up more than 1 gear at a time in manual (or is that the old Iveco I’m thinking of?)

No idea. Both Eurotronic1 and 2 allow block changes of two gears at a time.

You can in the Daf. Quoting from the manual, which I have in front of me.

To change up - push lever forward gently

• one gear up (push to 1st position)
• 2 gears up (push past detent to 2nd position)

While on the subject of the manual here is another quote:

To get AS-Tronic to select for the best gear when in manual mode - move the lever to the right (S)

Now that just didn’t work on the one I drove, either that or it felt the best gear was neutral becuase that was all you got if you moved the lever to the right, S postion.

[jase]

I actually agree with you Rob for once.I had a brand new xf ssc and the amount of times i’ve had near misses with it as you pull out of roundabouts was unreal as you see a gap ,put your foot down and nothing happens then it starts to pull away and queue car blowing its horn at you for cutting it up as its just come round the roundabout.
At 42mph it was a joke in auto as it would dither between 11th and 12 th gear all the time,used to knock it in manual at that speed in the end.
When i first reversed with it the bloke on the bay thought i was trying to put the trailer in the warehouse and not on the bay!
Trouble is the bloody thing used to do 10-12 mpg as well,even for all its faults.
No loved the space but found the cab to be made of very cheap materials but saying that i’d love to have an xf105 as my truck as that does look inside and out as the dogs nuts!

[biggusdickusgb]

The Stralis is about as bad as the other autos. It’s also slow to change and you can’t change up more than 1 gear at a time in manual (or is that the old Iveco I’m thinking of?) and I seriously dislike it changing down a gear going down hills so as to get enough revs up for the retarder. It’s a good idea in principle, but when you’re only lightly loaded the retarder has enough revs to hold the speed back in top gear without needing to drop it down a peg.

The Stralis also has the same problems the others suffer with regards close proximity movements.

rubbish statement wether its a stralis or eurostar, you have always been able to go to 4th to start and then jump 2 gears at a time on both models.
its a lovely gearbox and its just as quick on a gear change as the manual version, once you know how to use it properly

[greek]

As Ive posted before on Autos Ill just repeat my thoughts
Drove I shift for 3 & abit yrs Loved it Use Suspension when backing under trailers (no Probs).
Now driving Ivecos auto Lovely although prefer I shift when using manual & this is from a man whos favorite Truck out of 37yrs driving for a living was an atki Strato with eton twin splitter (pic of on photo forum P3 80s- 90`s)

I`LL NOT HAVE A GO AT ROB (coz he loves it)

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[coffeeholic]

I think there is a sort of connection here between how some drivers get on with SatNav and some drivers get on with auto boxes.

Drivers buy a SatNav thinking all they have to do is plug it in, they don’t need to learn how to use it and it will solve all their geographical confusion and they can stop thinking about navigation. Result - they end up down a narrow lane or with a low bridge on top of their truck, or both.

Drivers get a truck with an auto box and assume they no longer need to think about the gears or how to drive, there is nothing to learn with an auto box because it will do all the work. Just do like you do with a car, stick it in drive and away you go. Result - they end up hating the gearboxes and it makes the job harder, even in some cases more dangerous, than it needs to be.

Now I really tried everything I know with that box in the Daf, but to no avail. Might have been me - possible. Might have been that particular truck - possible, it was a rental so may have been abused. I don’t believe they are all like that, they can’t be surely? I’ll just have to wait until I drive another one, maybe in another make of vehicle to see if it was me or the box.