Cyclist Killed

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
81

Hexhome:

FarnboroughBoy11:
What a load of bollox!!! What more can we do??
We check our blind spots, be extra cautious when traffic is stop start. There is only so much a driver can do from his seat, we can check our mirrors as many times as we want but in that split second we are checking the other mirror some idiot will be up the inside.

It’s cyclists who need educating not the drivers!!
I would put good money on every single one of those deaths that the cyclist was on the near side. They don’t deserve to die but if they play with fire they are going to get burnt.

Read this thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/fe … 682580.ece

Sorry don’t understand your point in response to my post??
The cyclist in this incident went up the inside of the mixer, that’s the end of it isn’t it?? Regardless if he was indicating or not you don’t pass on the near side, you know this, I know this, every lorry driver knows this, but not every bike rider does which is why they need to be educated.

82

rob22888:
Yet again, an investigation hasn’t even been completed yet and already its assumed the lorry drivers fault. Who is to say at this stage that the cyclist didn’t do something stupid, it’s hardely uncommon to see, or his bike was a heap with poor brakes for example?

Any tom, ■■■■ or henrietta can jump onto a bike without any training, any highway code knowledge or proven skill whatsoever and ride amongst busy traffic on our roads with no insurance and without having to prove their bike is road worthy. And yet they want us already qualified and insured drivers to go on “cyclist awareness courses” to make sure we don’t hit them - there is something seriously wrong with that logic.

That has not been said or assumed at any point in this thread. I have merely suggested utilising the DCPC training usefully. Training works, that’s why we are better than most other drivers and cyclists. Why is this so controversial?

83

FarnboroughBoy11:
Sorry don’t understand your point in response to my post??
The cyclist in this incident went up the inside of the mixer, that’s the end of it isn’t it?? Regardless if he was indicating or not you don’t pass on the near side, you know this, I know this, every lorry driver knows this, but not every bike rider does which is why they need to be educated.

Well it would have helped if the truck had indicated in good time. We all move either side in traffic. That said, I fully agree with the point that if a cyclist does not undertake, they will not be put in danger. Unfortunately, in the real world, they do! Many roads now have a controversial cycle lane at the side which encourages such dangerous behaviour.

I am not trying to argue blame or responsibility just that training may be useful for everyone.

84

What’d be interesting and not difficult to determine in these cases would be if the cyclist had taken reasonable precaution to avoid the accident in the first place. Did the cyclist have lights, reflective or Hi vis clothing, wearing a helmet?

“Today a cyclist was killed in collision with a lorry, the cyclist who was wearing dark clothes and riding without lights may have still been alive if they could be clearly seen from the cab of the lorry”

I’m sure the poor bloody driver didn’t think “Oh look there’s some tossbag cyclist with poor equipment, I’ll just teach him / her a lesson”

I’m obviously not able to comment about this or any other particular incident as there is every chance the cyclist was completely responsible but realistically it’s unlikely.

Training the cyclists would be good, but I’m sure that seeing as many have a complete disregard for the rules of the road it’d not get taken up. Some sort of visible campaign on the rear of buses etc, stating what not to do might have some effect as they would be out and about on the road.

85

erfguy:
I might be out on a limb here as the saying goes but due to the increase in traffic in the past 10/15years i think we are now at the stage where cyclists should be banned from roads especially busyier routes. As for the suggestion that Hgv drivers should undergo cycle awareness training at least the HGV drivers have undergone training more than can be said for 99% of cyclists. Eddie.

They are already banned from many trunk roads. Cycles are a perfectly acceptable way to travel and in my view easier to deal with than a similar increase in that number of cars. Most cyclists, including myself, seek out routes which are as quiet and safe as possible. The only alternative for me is to use a car to get to work and unless I’m tramping, that comes to as much as a 5th of my wages. Even when I’m tramping, I use a bicycle to get around.

If the increase in traffic is a problem, why should cyclists disappear, after all, we were here first :slight_smile:

86

Hexhome:

FarnboroughBoy11:
Sorry don’t understand your point in response to my post??
The cyclist in this incident went up the inside of the mixer, that’s the end of it isn’t it?? Regardless if he was indicating or not you don’t pass on the near side, you know this, I know this, every lorry driver knows this, but not every bike rider does which is why they need to be educated.

Well it would have helped if the truck had indicated in good time. We all move either side in traffic. That said, I fully agree with the point that if a cyclist does not undertake, they will not be put in danger. Unfortunately, in the real world, they do! Many roads now have a controversial cycle lane at the side which encourages such dangerous behaviour.

I am not trying to argue blame or responsibility just that training may be useful for everyone.

Yes of course, I don’t deny that in some circumstances a driver has momentary lapse, whether that’s not checking his kerb side mirror or indicating or whatever. This still shouldn’t result in death though, both sides have to play the game.

This training both sides that you speak of, what would you train a lorry driver different to do what he should be doing already??

87

8wheels:
What’d be interesting and not difficult to determine in these cases would be if the cyclist had taken reasonable precaution to avoid the accident in the first place. Did the cyclist have lights, reflective or Hi vis clothing, wearing a helmet?

“Today a cyclist was killed in collision with a lorry, the cyclist who was wearing dark clothes and riding without lights may have still been alive if they could be clearly seen from the cab of the lorry”

I’m sure the poor bloody driver didn’t think “Oh look there’s some tossbag cyclist with poor equipment, I’ll just teach him / her a lesson”

I’m obviously not able to comment about this or any other particular incident as there is every chance the cyclist was completely responsible but realistically it’s unlikely.

Training the cyclists would be good, but I’m sure that seeing as many have a complete disregard for the rules of the road it’d not get taken up. Some sort of visible campaign on the rear of buses etc, stating what not to do might have some effect as they would be out and about on the road.

Agreed and all these things are being done and should be done more. No one here is suggesting where any blame sits!

Why oh why when a simple suggestion is made must everyone assume that it’s ‘having a go at the trucker’ time again. I’m certainly not.

88

FarnboroughBoy11:
This training both sides that you speak of, what would you train a lorry driver different to do what he should be doing already??

Well I think if we learnt anything today, it’s about our attitude to cyclists!

The clue is in the name ‘Cycle Awareness’. It’s a DCPC credited course and it gives HGV drivers an insight into the problems cyclists face and why they do some of the things that they do.

HGV drivers are the best drivers on our roads and as I have already posted that cyclists recognise this. Our training is good and this is an extension of that.

89

NewLad:
I think that the main issue with cyclist safety is the lack of training on their part. I need a licence to drive my car, ride my motorbike, or drive a LGV for work for each of these licences I have had to do a theory test, a hazard perception test, a practical test and to drive a LGV I had to do a further 2 test module 2 and 4 of the DCPC. I would consider myself to be a better driver than the ‘average’ driver you see on the road were trained to be prepared for what’s around the next corner. Accidents are going to happen and as our ageing road network gets busier and busier. I find it very worrying and strange that drivers have to have all this training and show someone that you are at a certain standard yet you can jump on a bike and ride on the road network and if anything happens its always the trained persons fault.

Strange

This ^^^

90

I think the main issue here is that you as a responsible and aware cyclist, with your head screwed on correctly seem to think that all other cyclists think the same way. Clearly this is not the case.

Personally I think helmets should become compulsory and also have some requirement for visible clothing.

91

From what I have gathered so far …

Most drivers and especially those who have taken a higher grade test are cycle safety aware
If they do something wrong then the law has an easy chance of punishing them but they are unlikely to be hurt

Most cyclists have never been trained and tested to be on the road
If they do something wrong then the law has virtually no chance of punishing them but they are more likely to be hurt

Solution 1 = train/test the cyclists and then have them identifiable in some way
Solution 2 = seperate cyclists from motorised vehicles by giving them the same rules as pedestrians

Is there another workable solution ?

92

Cyclists, car drivers and motorbikers should all have to spend some time in the cab of a lorry, just so they can see what it’s like, and just how easy it is for someone to ‘disappear’ or ‘appear’.

Drivers of all kinds should have to spend some time on motorbikes and pushbikes, so they can appreciate how vulnerable you become. (different types of vulnerable, with pushbikes its traffic, with m/bikes its road conditions etc)

I am not a driver (am here cos my partner is a truckie), but I have been known to go on a push bike and I got my CBT this year and a new 125 scooter. I have also spent time in the cab with my partner.

When doing my CBT, on the supervised ride bit, I was approaching a supermarket, there was an artic reversing into the loading area, I didn’t know if he was going to need another shunt at it or not, so I eased off fairly early, only slowed a little, but it was enough so that when I got nearer and could see that the driver had completed the reverse, I could just throttle up a little and carry on. My instructor mentioned it afterwards, asking my why I eased off, I just told him, I didn’t know what the truck was going to do, didn’t want to be in a position where I may have to suddenly stop, so I was just giving him room. Instructor was happy with this.

Maybe I react differently around trucks because I have been in one, I give them room, I would never dream of flying up the inside of one, but is that such a bad thing? Maybe it is this type of awareness that other road users need to have, that way we can all co-exist.

Meanwhile, don’t get me started on ninja cyclists (riding in the dark, in dark clothes with no lights or reflectors) and the red light runners!

93

Most cyclist ride with no regard for the rules of the road.
Most cyclists are oblivious to their vulnerability when the ‘red mist’ of dodging through traffic descends.

If the majority of cyclists could be punished in the same way the rest of us can be (points, fine, ban etc.) for riding/behaving stupidly or flouting the law, many of them wouldn’t last a month before being handed points,fine or worse.

Most drivers are aware of cyclists - but the same cannot be said about cyclists and their standing on the roads. As a motorcyclist having taken advance training (yes i know, it’s not the bee all an end all), I know I’m vulnerable and I ride accordingly. I wouldn’t ride up the inside of a truck turning left for a million pounds sterling, as a truck is bigger and heavier and the driver has enough to think about without a nob riding up his or her inside…

Until cyclists make the same sort of connection in their heads, as a group they will remain vulnerable and will keep getting squashed. Cyclists - you need to sort this out first before seeking to blame everyone else… :wink:

94

Hexhome:

FarnboroughBoy11:
This training both sides that you speak of, what would you train a lorry driver different to do what he should be doing already??

Well I think if we learnt anything today, it’s about our attitude to cyclists!

The clue is in the name ‘Cycle Awareness’. It’s a DCPC credited course and it gives HGV drivers an insight into the problems cyclists face and why they do some of the things that they do.

HGV drivers are the best drivers on our roads and as I have already posted that cyclists recognise this. Our training is good and this is an extension of that.

Hexhome, you keep getting asked what exactly a lorry driver can be trained do differently - and you keep saying that the course is really good/training is good/an insight is gained etc etc, but you’re not answering the question! Like what exactly? We all check mirrors, we all know that some pillock may ride up in our blind spot, we all indicate our intentions, and if necessary, alter our road position to make that intention even more obvious. We put lights on at night and in poor visibility. Please enlighten us as to what we are all missing?

As for knowing the problems that cyclists face, we are one of the few groups of road users who are aware through personal experience, the problems faced by just about every other road user. We drive cars, a large percentage ride or have ridden motorbikes, I would guess that 99% of us have cycled! We know the problems faced by other road users - the same cannot be said of most cyclists. So who needs the training?

95

grumpybum:
Hexhome, you keep getting asked what exactly a lorry driver can be trained do differently - and you keep saying that the course is really good/training is good/an insight is gained etc etc, but you’re not answering the question! Like what exactly? We all check mirrors, we all know that some pillock may ride up in our blind spot, we all indicate our intentions, and if necessary, alter our road position to make that intention even more obvious. We put lights on at night and in poor visibility. Please enlighten us as to what we are all missing?

As for knowing the problems that cyclists face, we are one of the few groups of road users who are aware through personal experience, the problems faced by just about every other road user. We drive cars, a large percentage ride or have ridden motorbikes, I would guess that 99% of us have cycled! We know the problems faced by other road users - the same cannot be said of most cyclists. So who needs the training?

I have posted the link to the training module earlier in the thread, I hadn’t expected it to get so long on what to me is not so controversial so I understand that it keeps getting missed. Here it is again; hackney.gov.uk/Assets/Docume … ackney.pdf

Essentially it is not a course to teach expert drivers how to drive but a course to challenge attitudes. The content is;

Theory Module

  • The changing streetscape and the urban
    environment
  • Vulnerable road users: Pedestrians, Cyclists &
    Motorcyclists
  • Sharing the road safely
  • Defensive driving techniques and actions in the
    event of an emergency incident
    Practical Module
  • Driver attitude & perception
  • Introduction to active travel, driver fitness and
    health
  • Hazard recognition understanding the issues
    faced by vulnerable road users

At the end of the day, it’s a free fully credited DCPC module. If nothing else, it ticks that box.

Again, I keep saying that cyclists need educating. There are also courses for them. None of this is compulsory (apart from the need to do DCPC) so given the subject matter of the OP, it seemed appropriate to make this suggestion in this thread.
I certainly did not expect to meet the depth of anti-cyclist feeling which I have which for me reinforces the fact that such modules might be useful if only to explore the issues that we have as drivers.

The interesting thing is that although I drive throughout Europe, including Central London and other cities, I very rarely encounter problems or hold ups as a result of cyclists. Are cyclist really a huge problem to us?

96

Hexhome:

grumpybum:
Hexhome, you keep getting asked what exactly a lorry driver can be trained do differently - and you keep saying that the course is really good/training is good/an insight is gained etc etc, but you’re not answering the question! Like what exactly? We all check mirrors, we all know that some pillock may ride up in our blind spot, we all indicate our intentions, and if necessary, alter our road position to make that intention even more obvious. We put lights on at night and in poor visibility. Please enlighten us as to what we are all missing?

As for knowing the problems that cyclists face, we are one of the few groups of road users who are aware through personal experience, the problems faced by just about every other road user. We drive cars, a large percentage ride or have ridden motorbikes, I would guess that 99% of us have cycled! We know the problems faced by other road users - the same cannot be said of most cyclists. So who needs the training?

I have posted the link to the training module earlier in the thread, I hadn’t expected it to get so long on what to me is not so controversial so I understand that it keeps getting missed. Here it is again; hackney.gov.uk/Assets/Docume … ackney.pdf

Essentially it is not a course to teach expert drivers how to drive but a course to challenge attitudes towards cyclists. Are cyclist really a huge problem to us?

When the agenda becomes one of politically motivated ‘changes’,in so called ‘attitudes’,in which the aim is one of putting more responsibility onto drivers of motor vehicles on the road,in order to make such use of such motor vehicles less attractive,while at the same removing responsibility from cyclists for their actions in order to make cycling more attractive,in an obvious attempt to reduce living standards,then yes cycling really is a huge problem to us.

There’s no reason as to why ‘attitudes’ of drivers of motor vehicles need to be changed from those which applied through the 1960’s/70’s/80’s.The driver training given at that time to pass the driving test in relation to dealing with those groups was sufficient just as it is now.

All the bs pc ‘changes’ in ‘attitudes’,which have been put in place by authorities like the loony lefty TFL,so far,have done is to create a false sense of security amongst pedestrians and cyclists,resulting in an ever downward spiral in attitudes and standards of those groups towards their behaviour around motor vehicles.While at the same time dumbing down driving standards.To put it simply the average cyclist,pedestrian and many drivers of whatever type of vehicle today, wouldn’t have survived very long at all on the roads and motorways of the 1960’s/1970’s/80’s.That’s not an indictment of attitudes and standards at that time but it is an idictment of the politically motivated bs ones of today.

97

Hexhome:

the maoster:
However, I’ll return to this training thing again. It’s all very well saying it could be included in the DCPC, but what? What training are you proposing? I honestly don’t understand what form you think this training should take, please enlighten me. There isn’t imo a great deal you can teach a LGV driver, and to be honest a 7 hour training module consisting of nothing more than a trainer saying “don’t run them over” would probably ■■■■ me off enough to go out and do just that!

So I’ll stick to my original assertion that it’s the vulnerable ones who need training, not the ones encased in steel.

I keep repeating this as people seem want to turn this thread into a vitriolic rant. I agree wholeheartedly that cyclists need to clean up their act BUT it isn’t just irresponsible cyclists who are getting killed and injured. Even well trained and skilled cyclists are involved in tragedies. Remember, most cyclists hold driving licences and many of us have vocational licences as well. I personally have been hospitalised by a stupid and deliberate act by a (car) driver.

The form of training which is already available in some London Boroughs as a DCPC module with a full 7 hour credit (and free for many drivers) is about recognising the issues from a cycling perspective. I can promise you that it is eye opening. There is also similar training available, again free, for cyclists, recognising the issues from an HGV drivers point of view. Again for most cyclists, this is an eye opener and I would expect that none of them would ever come up the inside of a large vehicle ever again.

Hopefully, this will help fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_ … g_code.pdf

Ain’t that a kick in the head… a course that professional driver’s have to pay for but everyone else gets free

98

Whirlwind:

Hexhome:

the maoster:
However, I’ll return to this training thing again. It’s all very well saying it could be included in the DCPC, but what? What training are you proposing? I honestly don’t understand what form you think this training should take, please enlighten me. There isn’t imo a great deal you can teach a LGV driver, and to be honest a 7 hour training module consisting of nothing more than a trainer saying “don’t run them over” would probably ■■■■ me off enough to go out and do just that!

So I’ll stick to my original assertion that it’s the vulnerable ones who need training, not the ones encased in steel.

I keep repeating this as people seem want to turn this thread into a vitriolic rant. I agree wholeheartedly that cyclists need to clean up their act BUT it isn’t just irresponsible cyclists who are getting killed and injured. Even well trained and skilled cyclists are involved in tragedies. Remember, most cyclists hold driving licences and many of us have vocational licences as well. I personally have been hospitalised by a stupid and deliberate act by a (car) driver.

The form of training which is already available in some London Boroughs as a DCPC module with a full 7 hour credit (and free for many drivers) is about recognising the issues from a cycling perspective. I can promise you that it is eye opening. There is also similar training available, again free, for cyclists, recognising the issues from an HGV drivers point of view. Again for most cyclists, this is an eye opener and I would expect that none of them would ever come up the inside of a large vehicle ever again.

Hopefully, this will help fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_ … g_code.pdf

Ain’t that a kick in the head… a course that professional driver’s have to pay for but everyone else gets free

Do you mean the Driver CPC or the free module I was suggesting? If the former then I couldn’t agree more, but we have had that forced upon us, though there is a petition to have the decision reviewed available here epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/34438 If you are referring to the cycling related course then that’s free to drivers who live or drive in the borough. ASFAIK this is the only free DCPC module there is.

99

Maybe they should get this guy to educate the cyclists

youtube.com/watch?v=B4RRCARm … hw&index=1

100

Drivers obviously can be educated as shown by the story of the mother whose daughter was killed, with a fwe simple steps she effectivly reduced incidences of cyclists being killled by one companys vehicles by 100% so why shoudlnt that be rolled out accross the board?

Where the is a cycle lane it is perfectly legal for a cyclist to cycle up the inside of a truck, hence the driver should check before turning, not sensible just legalm, I find it very hard to belive it is possible for a cyclist to be invisable, you can see all the way round the tuck with correct observations. the fact is truck drivers are not carrying out correct observations then blaming the cyclist for being there, obviously it is stupid to go up the inside of a truck thats turning left but as in the girls case the truck didnt indicate till it was to late and if he had been chcking his mirros regually when he was stationary as he should he would have seen here 100meters back coming up and made sure he knew exactly where she was before manouvering Im sure MOST (not all) collisions involving cyclists n the inside of trucks would be avoidable if the driver just made proper use of the mirros and took things at a sensible speed.

People seem to forged Truck drivers are PAID to drive hence have a much greater responsibility
A machine opperator wouldn’t get away with running someone over on a quarry and simply saing sorry he shoudlnt be been standing near my vehicle