Cyclist Killed

[hexhome]

grumpybum:
No it won’t, because cyclists don’t like using cycle lanes and will regularly drive alongside one on the road rather than using it! I see it all the time. Apparently they have to ride too slowly (carefully?) on cycle paths as the surface is not as good as the road. What a waste of money. Pointless building any more.

Whilst some truth in this statement this is a generalisation which is somewhat ill informed (the discussed DCPC module would inform ).

Most cyclists would prefer to be segregated from traffic when possible.
Sadly many cycle lanes are ill thought out and even dangerous. Some defy belief
.

As to whether it’s pointless building any more, well as fuel gets more costly and congestion charges bite wider, more of us might just need them. I believe that well designed ones are the best solution. Unfortunately, there is very little government money going towards cycling infrastructure despite a huge rise in numbers of cyclists on the roads.

[carryfast]

albion1971:

Carryfast:

albion1971:
Carryfast you completely misunderstand me.First of all I take it your ex Army seeing your so concerned about Army drivers.
Every recruit that joins the armed forces these days is put through an LGV cat C (not all C+E) driving test.The ones that eventually become tank transporter drivers are ones that are drivers by trade and they are picked out to be above average.
I totally agree that a tank transporter driver needs to be very aware when driving and most are but what I am saying is that some drivers no matter what they drive become complacent and do not realise they are missing mirror checks.As I said earlier I have come across many a driver(military and civilan) who think they are ok with their mirrors when in actual fact they are pretty poor.
The only way that can be addressed is for current drivers to be assessed because once they pass that basic test most develop bad driving habits without even realising.

I’m not ex army because being conscripted would have been bad enough from my point of view let alone joining up voluntarily.

I was just referring to the issues which ‘might’ apply within the army and which might explain at least some of your bad experiences and views concerning army trained drivers.The fact is it’s either a case of a driver being a driver by trade or not and the latter is just a compromise.It’s obvious that the job of being a driver within the army is a specialist skilled one that the average driver won’t be up to just like in civilian conditions.It’s also obvious that those jobs are few and far between in the army and usually over subscribed by hopeful applicants and every other type of ‘driver’ is just trained at a lower level to get a lower grade licence probably on the basis of quantity of drivers being what matters in that case not quality.( Which I already knew which is one of the reasons why I never let the army careers officers convince me with any bs that joining up would automatically be a route to being given the job of a class 1 driver by trade within the army when I left school ).

Which leaves that issue of mirror ‘checks’.As any driver by ‘trade’ would know there’s no such thing as ‘mirror checks’ in just the same way as there’s no such thing as looking ahead through the windscreen ‘checks’.The use of mirrors when driving a truck is/should be an instinctive constant scanning of the mirrors on a constant basis wether it’s moving or stopped at lights or junctions or roundabouts etc etc.That is one of the first things that any driver is/should be trained into from the start of their driver training.I really can’t believe that any driver by ‘trade’,especially one with a background in driving army equipment at the highest levels,could possibly ever get into any so called ‘bad habits’ in which that essential basic requirement in driving any LGV gets forgotten.In any type of case where that issue does apply as you’ve described it then it could only be owning to a catastrophic failure in basic driver training and/or a driver that doesn’t view the job in a way that allows full control of the vehicle.

However having said that it would be putting cyclists into a dangerous false sense of security to let them think that even when a driver is using the mirrors correctly that those cyclists would always be noticed when carrying out some of their often suicidal ideas concerning riding bicycles at the side of trucks.

Again you seem to misunderstand the situation.No the job of the average army driver is not a specialist skilled one and there are no compromises or lower training levels.
As I said all Armed Forces recruits have to pass an LGV test whether they are traded as a driver or not.The ones that are drivers to trade go on to further training after passing their test.eg drops vehicles,cross country driving,skid training and many other courses but only a chosen few are selected to be offered tank transporter jobs and then the choice is up to them to do the required training.
I am not ex services myself. Before I worked for the MOD I worked for a civilian training company and my main point is that you get good and bad drivers everywhere and there are very few drivers anywhere that do not have bad driving habits.
Again I can confirm that many already qualified drivers(military and civilian)do not use proper mirror checks although before they are assessed they reckon they are top notch.So if they are not checking properly when they are being assessed what will they be like when they are not being watched.

I think I’d go as far as to say that it would be impossible to drive any truck properly or safely without correct use of the mirrors which as I’ve said involves a lot more than just ‘checks’.Assuming there’s no compromises as you say then I’d assume that all army LGV drivers and civilian ones would be trained (and passed) in the use of mirrors to the same level.If you’re right about the issue of many drivers forgetting all that then it’s obvious that accident rates would become untenable regarding collisions of all types involving trucks not just between trucks and cyclists.

I think it’s more likely that if there really are flaws in some drivers use of mirrors then that issue would have existed from day 1 and be a result of sub standard basic training and examination standards assuming they were even allowed to reach the stage of a driving test before being washed out at the training stage as being non LGV driving quality material.Therefore ‘if’ what you’re saying is correct that can only be a flaw in the LGV training regime let alone the testing one.

[hexhome]

Truckulent:
All roads users have a responsibility to each other. But, cyclists seem very keen to take risks in an attempt to ‘get ahead’. I’d say that in the majority of cases, if you feel the need to swerve in and out of traffic in your blatant attempts to reach the front of the queue before the lights change, you should set off a bit earlier and take your time, much safer!

I saw one idiot a few weeks ago, all decked in hiviz and lycra with an (illegal) flashing red light attached to the back of his head, try to overtake a line of cars heading uphill. The lights changed and he was left cycling up the middle of the road as he couldn’t keep up, before swerving in front of a bus to reach the kerb again…it was dark and raining at the time.

Sorry, but there are just two many of these idiots about. I know not all cyclists are like that but until the lycra loonies are curbed, all cyclists will be tarred with the same brush unfortunately. It isn’t fair, but then life isn’t!

Well a few points here to address! Starting with ‘get ahead’ mentality’. One of the ill thought out developments has been the ‘Advanced Stop Line’ at traffic lights. I believe that whilst it has some merit, it can be lethal when used in the vicinity of large vehicles. Filtering ahead of stationary traffic can be done safely, but recent developments persuade cyclists to undertake when overtaking would be much safer. Apart from in very dense traffic, it is also irritating to large vehicle drivers who have to re overtake repeatedly. It’s a fair point and certainly the better cyclists wait behind vehicles in the queue in some instances.

Flashing lights, fully legal, they have been introduced to help cyclists stand out amongst heavy traffic - see legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005 … ion/6/made [edited to add, of course that is legal as a bicycle lamp, a helmet lamp has no relevant legislation] It sounds as though he was overtaking on the right so he was making him self seen, can’t comment on his return to the nearside except that it was completed safely (I’m sure you would have said otherwise).

You know that not all cyclists are like that and so I hope does everyone. There are certainly too many idiots about in or out of Lycra, the wearing of which also seems to be a common criticism.

This is the crux of the problem really, ‘Lycra louts weaving in and out of the traffic and getting ahead of cars’ isn’t a fact, it’s a prejudice. I spend my life on the roads and also take a very active interest in cycling. I see little evidence that cyclists are causing problems on them.

[hexhome]

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

[whirlwind]

5live documentry on this now

[albion1971]

Carryfast you just do not be able to grasp the fact that although somebody has been trained it does not mean they will drive the way they have been trained forever.
It is not the training that is flawed.It is the drivers.

[mickyblue]

Hexhome:

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

Jumping lights?

[albion1971]

mickyblue:

Hexhome:

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

Jumping lights?

Some cyclists jump lights…some truck drivers jump lights…Don’t be so biased.

[truckulent]

Hexhome:

Truckulent:
All roads users have a responsibility to each other. But, cyclists seem very keen to take risks in an attempt to ‘get ahead’. I’d say that in the majority of cases, if you feel the need to swerve in and out of traffic in your blatant attempts to reach the front of the queue before the lights change, you should set off a bit earlier and take your time, much safer!

I saw one idiot a few weeks ago, all decked in hiviz and lycra with an (illegal) flashing red light attached to the back of his head, try to overtake a line of cars heading uphill. The lights changed and he was left cycling up the middle of the road as he couldn’t keep up, before swerving in front of a bus to reach the kerb again…it was dark and raining at the time.

Sorry, but there are just two many of these idiots about. I know not all cyclists are like that but until the lycra loonies are curbed, all cyclists will be tarred with the same brush unfortunately. It isn’t fair, but then life isn’t!

Well a few points here to address! Starting with ‘get ahead’ mentality’. One of the ill thought out developments has been the ‘Advanced Stop Line’ at traffic lights. I believe that whilst it has some merit, it can be lethal when used in the vicinity of large vehicles. Filtering ahead of stationary traffic can be done safely, but recent developments persuade cyclists to undertake when overtaking would be much safer. Apart from in very dense traffic, it is also irritating to large vehicle drivers who have to re overtake repeatedly. It’s a fair point and certainly the better cyclists wait behind vehicles in the queue in some instances.

Flashing lights, fully legal, they have been introduced to help cyclists stand out amongst heavy traffic - see legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005 … ion/6/made [edited to add, of course that is legal as a bicycle lamp, a helmet lamp has no relevant legislation] It sounds as though he was overtaking on the right so he was making him self seen, can’t comment on his return to the nearside except that it was completed safely (I’m sure you would have said otherwise).

You know that not all cyclists are like that and so I hope does everyone. There are certainly too many idiots about in or out of Lycra, the wearing of which also seems to be a common criticism.

This is the crux of the problem really, ‘Lycra louts weaving in and out of the traffic and getting ahead of cars’ isn’t a fact, it’s a prejudice. I spend my life on the roads and also take a very active interest in cycling. I see little evidence that cyclists are causing problems on them.

LOL. His return to the nearside would have resulted in a wooden box to the morgue if the bus driver hadn’t braked hard…don’t think cycle helmets and mountain bikes are proof against 13 or 14 tonnes of bus…

He was making himself seen■■? In the middle of a busy road in the rain, in the dark with just a flashing light velcro-ed to the back of his head?? (As i passed i checked the mirror and he had no visible front light). This was a major road, it is debatable if a cyclist was wise to be on it at all in such conditions, but to ride up the middle of it in the rain and dark, and then try to keep up with the motor vehicles travelling uphill once the lights had changed suggests the bloke was completely oblivious of his utter stupidity.

Flashing or not- you couldn’t see the guy very well at all…but…

Can you outline the legislation that says cyclists can weave in and out of traffic, in the dark and rain,then swerve in front of a bus causing the driver to brake hard, all in very poor visibility with just a flashing helmet light for company??!

Lots of you are missing the point. All road users break the law at some point, I would never dispute that. But cyclists are more vulnerable than most so you’d think they’d have the sense to be more defensive.

It’s OK being in the right and holier than thou but not much good if you’re in the ICU or a wooden box…

[carryfast]

albion1971:
Carryfast you just do not be able to grasp the fact that although somebody has been trained it does not mean they will drive the way they have been trained forever.
It is not the training that is flawed.It is the drivers.

If the training and testing regime is doing it’s job correctly it (should) be able to sort out wether a driver is using the mirrors correctly on an instinctive basis or just forcing themselves in order to pass the test.If it’s the former of those and the correct instinctive use of mirrors has been correctly identified the driver certainly will drive that way forever in just the same way that they use all the other controls in order to drive the thing correctly and keep it under control.In the case of the latter it’s more likely to be isolated random incidents of drivers who’ve slipped through the net because of isolated random variations in training and testing standards which would probably account for such bad driving as that which you’ve experienced.Of which collisions with cyclists would be just one symptom in addition to clipping/flattening cars,kerbs,pedestrians and numerous types of street furniture including roll overs caused by running over roundabout edges etc etc etc.

Although having said that even your own description,which seems to be all about mirror ‘checks’,as opposed to the constant type of scanning which I’ve described,as being required and expected to drive a truck safely,that might provide a clue that it’s the training and testing standards which have been dumbed down from those that I knew.

However the case of cyclists getting into collision situations with trucks seems to be something different to that.It seems to be a specific type of collision issue because of the suicidal nature of cyclists attitudes to self preservation around motor traffic of which trucks present the most deadly type of threat to them and in which even the best driving standards won’t help.

However if you’re right and it’s a widespread problem caused by poor driving standards then,as I’ve said,there wouldn’t just be a problem concerning cyclists getting into conflict with turning trucks.

[carryfast]

albion1971:

mickyblue:

Hexhome:

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

Jumping lights?

Some cyclists jump lights…some truck drivers jump lights…Don’t be so biased.

But the penalties are a lot different assuming that both are caught doing it.Especially if they’re caught doing it more than once.

[hexhome]

Truckulent:
It’s OK being in the right and holier than thou but not much good if you’re in the ICU or a wooden box…

This is very true and I certainly don’t see cyclists who do these things in a good light. My attitude on the road is give and take. I’m not particularly interested in the rights and wrongs, that just gets us wound up.

Good cyclists do not want to be tarred with the same brush as the idiots. We can see that attitudes towards us are changing for the worst because of them. I’ve just watched this bbc.co.uk/programmes/p012gfsn and I share the sentiment. By the way, if anyone is wondering about the slurred speech in this, it is as a result of being hit by a truck whilst cycling in the USA.

[hexhome]

mickyblue:

Hexhome:

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

Jumping lights?

99%?

[mickyblue]

albion1971:

mickyblue:

Hexhome:

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

Jumping lights?

Some cyclists jump lights…some truck drivers jump lights…Don’t be so biased.

Don’t be so touchy!

I was just naming one offence. There are many more they commit, and before you come back with a hero comment, i know CAR and LORRY drivers commit a offence on a daily basis.

I will stick my neck out and say cyclist’s think there angels and can do no wrong.

[hexhome]

mickyblue:
I will stick my neck out and say cyclist’s think there angels and can do no wrong.

Out too far On this thread it seems that the weight of evidence would support your theory applies to HGV drivers

[mickyblue]

you forgot to add audi drivers to

[hexhome]

mickyblue:
you forgot to add audi drivers to

Can we just settle for all German upper range motors

[grumpybum]

Hexhome:

mickyblue:
you forgot to add audi drivers to

Can we just settle for all German upper range motors

Careful - you’re in danger of people agreeing with you now

Turned into a good discussion though

[mickyblue]

There is good and bad in all, car, lorry, motorcyclist and cyclist’s. At the end of the day this topic could go on for a long time and we will all still not agree

[albion1971]

mickyblue:

albion1971:

mickyblue:

Hexhome:

rambo19:
In london, 99% of cyclists dis obey the law.

Which law ? And the evidence that you are quoting from is?

Jumping lights?

Some cyclists jump lights…some truck drivers jump lights…Don’t be so biased.

Don’t be so touchy!

I was just naming one offence. There are many more they commit, and before you come back with a hero comment, i know CAR and LORRY drivers commit a offence on a daily

I will stick my neck out and say cyclist’s think there angels and can do no wrong.

Judging by a lot written on this forum it seems a lot of truck drivers think they can do wrong as well.Blame others for their poor driving.