CSI required

Wermy:
ScaniaUltimate
“This is the type of education we should be getting on our DCPC courses.
Something to keep the ‘already know it all’ types awake.”

Exactly what the DCPC is supposed to be about and would make it far more interesting. I was reading that in the US they have air brake instruction and tests for PSV’s so all these different configurations should be covered

Well once drivers who’ve been driving over quarter of a century start to get all the questions right about the basics like drivers hours and load security then they can move on to stuff like that. However whilst drivers who’ve been driving for years still think that if you have 11hrs off after a 15 hr duty you’ve not taken a reduced daily rest it won’t happen.

Conor:

Wermy:
ScaniaUltimate
“This is the type of education we should be getting on our DCPC courses.
Something to keep the ‘already know it all’ types awake.”

Exactly what the DCPC is supposed to be about and would make it far more interesting. I was reading that in the US they have air brake instruction and tests for PSV’s so all these different configurations should be covered

Well once drivers who’ve been driving over quarter of a century start to get all the questions right about the basics like drivers hours and load security then they can move on to stuff like that. However whilst drivers who’ve been driving for years still think that if you have 11hrs off after a 15 hr duty you’ve not taken a reduced daily rest it won’t happen.

As much as I laugh at you sometimes Conor :laughing: you have a good point here :open_mouth: :laughing:

Wheel Nut:
There are some interesting videos that the US use for training their commercial drivers, a few words we probably don’t recognise.

One of these is “Compounding” when you put full pressure through the foot valve and activate the spring brakes simultaneously, this will bend the brackets and break the brakes apparently.

correct me if i’m wrong w/n but did’nt the yanks used to disable the front brakes on their units…?

Conor:

Wermy:
ScaniaUltimate
“This is the type of education we should be getting on our DCPC courses.
Something to keep the ‘already know it all’ types awake.”

Exactly what the DCPC is supposed to be about and would make it far more interesting. I was reading that in the US they have air brake instruction and tests for PSV’s so all these different configurations should be covered

Well once drivers who’ve been driving over quarter of a century start to get all the questions right about the basics like drivers hours and load security then they can move on to stuff like that. However whilst drivers who’ve been driving for years still think that if you have 11hrs off after a 15 hr duty you’ve not taken a reduced daily rest it won’t happen.

That’s a bit of a merged quote but I quite agree.
Let’s have the DCPC relevant & properly taught by people who have been tested in their knowledge first & trained to teach.
Drivers’ Hours, for example, should not be a one module fits all.
It is like having a mathematics lesson where you start learning 1+1=2 and move on to algebra in the same lesson.
The basics are very simple but the permutations & variations make it much more complex.
No time is allowed for actually teaching the subject, you are only being told the rules.
Whilst Drivers’ Hours rules come in 1 module for all it is going to continue to be universally not fit for purpose.

There are some very well qualified instructors out there, as previously explained by some, but they excel from their training outside the DCPC - not from within.

Apologies to the OP for going off topic.

I had the wrong trailer control valve on for a short while the predominance was wrong :open_mouth: it was like having disc / ebs braking but didn’t half warm up the trailer brakes :laughing:

Wheel Nut:
There are some interesting videos that the US use for training their commercial drivers, a few words we probably don’t recognise.

One of these is “Compounding” when you put full pressure through the foot valve and activate the spring brakes simultaneously, this will bend the brackets and break the brakes apparently.

Then people wonder how so many US trucks lose control, have trailer swing etc. If they backed off the unit’s front brakes, wasn’t it so brake wear was apportioned to the trailer (owners), as well as help increase stability

As Juddian mentions maybe we need to start a new thread to cover the braking subject in one place. This thread has been good and highlighted something not all of us realised so thanks to Punchy Dan for kicking it off

Another subject that I think needs more coverage is fridges as I have seen a few recent post of frozen ambient goods due to unfamiliarity of fridge work

m.a.n rules:

Wheel Nut:
There are some interesting videos that the US use for training their commercial drivers, a few words we probably don’t recognise.

One of these is “Compounding” when you put full pressure through the foot valve and activate the spring brakes simultaneously, this will bend the brackets and break the brakes apparently.

correct me if i’m wrong w/n but did’nt the yanks used to disable the front brakes on their units…?

They were an optional extra until the 80’s :laughing:

Maybe that is why they needed to take a test on brake systems to understand what they were for!

OK - I apologize for thread derailment, but here’s what I read only this morning regarding drivers hours and rest periods:

EU DRIVERS HOURS – DAILY REST PERIOD

A regular daily rest period means any period of rest of at least 11 hours.

I await to be told I’m wrong, in which case the material I’m learning is wrong…

TruckerGuy:
OK - I apologize for thread derailment, but here’s what I read only this morning regarding drivers hours and rest periods:

EU DRIVERS HOURS – DAILY REST PERIOD

A regular daily rest period means any period of rest of at least 11 hours.

I await to be told I’m wrong, in which case the material I’m learning is wrong…

… of at least 11 hours within the 24 hour period starting from the end of the previous day’s rest.

In other words, if you start at 4am, and finish at 7pm, you cannot fit 11 hours rest in before 4am the next day. It doesn’t matter if you have 20 hours rest, it would still be a daily reduced rest of 9 hours, because only 9 hours could be fitted in before 4am the following day.

.

Backs into the wall trying to do a 3-point turn, damages air tank at back of tractor, and then cannot move… :smiley:

TruckerGuy:
OK - I apologize for thread derailment, but here’s what I read only this morning regarding drivers hours and rest periods:

EU DRIVERS HOURS – DAILY REST PERIOD

A regular daily rest period means any period of rest of at least 11 hours.

I await to be told I’m wrong, in which case the material I’m learning is wrong…

A working day is a 24hr period. You only have 24hrs to fit in your working time and your rest time. 24hrs minus 13hrs working = 11 hrs remaining so that allows a standard rest period. 24hrs minus 14hrs working leaves 10 hrs remaining, so that automatically becomes a reduced rest because you need 11 hrs remaining in the day for a standard rest and there aren’t enough hours left. 24 hrs minus 15 hrs working leaves only 9 hrs remaining, so that automatically becomes a reduced rest too, for the same reason.

Anything over 13 hrs working + 11 hrs rest is impossible because that’s over 24 hrs and a day only has 24 hrs in it :smiley: . In short, if you work a second over 13 hours, you are using a reduced rest period. It doesn’t matter if you sleep for 11 hours, 21 hours or 1000 hours, it’s still a reduced rest period because it works on rolling 24 hr periods.

(and yes before the pedants wade in I’m well aware of the split rest, but I’m keeping it simple for the newbies).

Juddian:
on the Volvos you had the extra aitr operated switch you could pull out labelled Broms Brake, which once pressurised stayed out, this applied the trailer brakes, and wouldn’t release till you pushed it manually back in again.
That was an eye opening moment for me, for some reason since we’d lost the blue auxilliary brake line (operated by the secondary or dead man’s brake) i’d assumed the park brake on two line systems applied all, wrong.

Broms is Swedish for …brake.Can’t remember in the case of F10/FL10 but on the Scania 112 and 93 can only remember it being usable when moving and couldn’t be locked in the on position for when stationary only the park brake valve as usual ?.
Park brake is here at 6.27 and trailer brake valve is 6.41 as shown it’s spring loaded and can’t be locked in the on position and 6.45 is the hand ‘throttle’ control.Strange how I can remember the apparently rare Scania 10 speed splitter type box ordered by Ryder and the other controls of the 112 like it was yesterday.
youtube.com/watch?v=AU4Vd7T9BBA
I guess not enough space to label it correctly trailer brake in English let alone Swedish.

The blue secondary brake line’s valve actuation had long been fitted into the foot brake valve on all recent trucks when I started.The old hand operated secondary valve had long gone.
I guess the detachable gooseneck front end loading or removable rear axle loader types might have been a sort of solution to weight transfer or any movement caused by loading a semi trailer with ramps and across its rear overhang/beavertail on its wheels.It’s easy to see how a unit only being braked could cause disaster in that case.Surely using wheel chocks on the trailer wheels should be a routine precaution ?.

So much for the “rules being relaxed”… Tacho Infringements - are just as alive and well as they were before.

If firms still get rid of people for “too many infringements”, despite Plod saying “We are not enforcing it until the end of the lockdown now” - Who’s responsible for the loss of job then?

The driver for trying to follow government guidelines - only to fall foul of an overstrict employer
OR
The Employer - for not two-tiering the system between “serious infringments” like working 20hrs in a day, and “minor infringements” like not taking your first tea break until 6hrs 5mins into your duty, 'cos you got “stuck in traffic” on the way back to the Depot, which the firm insists you take your break at, not at a MSA or layby on the way back… :unamused:

Assuming the type of runaway described by Juddian what are those yellow things stowed on the front bulkhead ?.

Carryfast:

Juddian:
on the Volvos you had the extra aitr operated switch you could pull out labelled Broms Brake, which once pressurised stayed out, this applied the trailer brakes, and wouldn’t release till you pushed it manually back in again.
That was an eye opening moment for me, for some reason since we’d lost the blue auxilliary brake line (operated by the secondary or dead man’s brake) i’d assumed the park brake on two line systems applied all, wrong.

Broms is Swedish for …brake.Can’t remember in the case of F10/FL10 but on the Scania 112 and 93 can only remember it being usable when moving and couldn’t be locked in the on position for when stationary only the park brake valve as usual ?.
Park brake is here at 6.27 and trailer brake valve is 6.41 as shown it’s spring loaded and can’t be locked in the on position and 6.45 is the hand ‘throttle’ control.Strange how I can remember the apparently rare Scania 10 speed splitter type box ordered by Ryder and the other controls of the 112 like it was yesterday.
youtube.com/watch?v=AU4Vd7T9BBA
I guess not enough space to label it correctly trailer brake in English let alone Swedish.

The blue secondary brake line’s valve actuation had long been fitted into the foot brake valve on all recent trucks when I started.The old hand operated secondary valve had long gone.
I guess the detachable gooseneck front end loading or removable rear axle loader types might have been a sort of solution to weight transfer or any movement caused by loading a semi trailer with ramps and across its rear overhang/beavertail on its wheels.It’s easy to see how a unit only being braked could cause disaster in that case.Surely using wheel chocks on the trailer wheels should be a routine precaution ?.

Scanias (i think right up to the 113, might have been 112 the trailer brake was meant to be used by the drive as such, it was operated by a large lever similarly to how a dead man on UK built wagons was, the difference being the Scania trailer brake only applied the trailer brakes, a typical UK dead man applied the trailer brakes and the tractor steer axle at the same time but not the tractor drive axle, meant to help a driver overcome a jack nife if normal footbraking had caused one to start and the drive had caught it in time, or if a jack knife was likely…for new drivers a jack knife is usually when the tractor drive axle locks up prematurely and the trailer pushes the the tractor around…remember no such thing as anti lock systems on typical lorries in those days, many didn’t even have load sensing with proportional braking so lock ups were frequent when empty or lightly loaded.

My first artic didn’t have a normal as we know it park brake at all, on old Fodens it comprised (similar in operation to series Land Rovers) of a manually operated brake drum and shoes fitted to the back of the diff, applied and the vehicle would rock back and forth till it settled just like an old Land Rover, so not something you’d use as a secondary brake, even if it was effective enough being an open diff one wheel could lock up leading to ain immediate jack knife spin out.
You could use the dead mans handle (secondary brake lever which utilised the blue air line) which was a lever about 8" long pivoting on the lump of cast iron just under the huge (no power) steering wheel, this cast lump was amusingly referred to as the dashboard, this you could vary the pressure applied to tractor front and trailer axles simultaneouly, you could also use it to subsidise the park brake when loading or similar and in normal driving you’d use it for hill starts etc (not a hope in hell the manual drum park brake holding the vehicle on a decent hill), but no spring brakes in those days so when the vehicle lost air pressure the brakes operated by air would release, so for safety’s sake you’d apply the dead man and leave it pressurised then nip out and ratchet the cable trailer park brake up…assuming it wasn’t seized snapped or wound over its spool in a bloody great messy tangle when you came to use it.

There, the good old days of braking.

Volvos Broms brake was a pull out switch on the dash, it wasn’t meant to be used as secondary or alternative brake nor really to be used when driving because when you pulled the button it took several seconds to pressurise the trailer brakes, when pressure achieved the switch would stay out till you physically pushed it back in, it would be a brave soul who tried to use it as Scania drivers could as an auxilliary braking control because release like pressurising up wasn’t instant or variable, so was only meant in my opinion to apply the trailer brakes when required by the driver in such circs as the possible situation in the OP picture, ie loading or parked up on an incline.

Can’t remember what brakes were applied if you used the normal secondary brake on older european wagons, i’m talking about applying the park brake steadily before you flipped over the indent when standard park brake.
Most Brit wagons of the time that had air operated park brakes but no dead man or secondary brake lever, the secondary brake could with varying pressure be applied using the initial travel of the park brake, this is of course still the case mostly with manual air park brakes, some of the old brakes the park brake operated in a small h pattern, the secondary brake operation was the upright of the h, pull the lever straight back, to apply the parking brake you pulled it back then moved the lever over into the n section where it would stay, these brakes were often situated to the right of the driver’s seat (late Fodens) and you didn’t need to look when operating because they was often a loud rush of air with different sounds accompanying each operation.

From memory the split dual action foot valve described here regarding Dennis and Atki design became the industry standard for the secondary blue line actuation.
archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … s-them-all

archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … ross-artic

But if the pic shows a rear end ramp trailer loading v unit brake only type runaway those stowed chocks might be a give away.

Carryfast:
Assuming the type of runaway described by Juddian what are those yellow things stowed on the front bulkhead ?.

Those plastic chocks are about as much use a chocolate teapot, more often than not they’ll bounce down the road in front of the wheel until such time as the vehicle has enough momentum, by which time IF the chock eventually digs in the wheel goes straight over (or through when loaded) it often smashing it to pieces…still they look the part :unamused: .

Juddian:

Carryfast:
Assuming the type of runaway described by Juddian what are those yellow things stowed on the front bulkhead ?.

Those plastic chocks are about as much use a chocolate teapot

Blimey I didn’t even know they made plastic ones I thought they were all steel of the type I used just painted yellow.What will they think of next plastic wheels.
But still must have been better to use them than not.