Bewick:
bma.finland:
cat,s in finland did not go well,destroied sisu,s reputation for years,hej benkkuThats what I’ve been saying bma.The CAT engine was a waste of time in automotive form,it was a superb Plant and Generator and probably a Marine engine but not for roadgoing applications ! hej benkku! Bewick.
some likes white some black we scannies 
or what dennis ,cheers benkku(know nothing about gardeners thougth 
)
Evening Gentlemen, lively is it not!! Just love the emotion that springs forth on these threads!
Mark, Paul John, ah Glider kits, when I was first in the US, I was fascinated by these superb alternatives to the “used lorry”. Super idea, a small operator could conserve his cash, and update his fleet !! Very difficult to tell from the real thing,(age wise), if you were valuing them as a part exchanges. I remember, (with some embarresment), looking at, and driving a Mack Superliner, that was really a rather aged R series!! What a lovely lorry… I think my colleague from Dallas dined out on the story for years afterwards!!!
Now US “Truck Brokers”, that is a title to beware of! Not quite one of the UK type Used Truck Dealers, oh no. I remember having dealings with an individual in Kansas City, (Slippy Simon was how I remember him), even looked like the slim American greasy villan, honest, well, perhaps in the past, but he would have not lasted 5 days on Hoo Brook Estate Kidderminster, the real home of the UK used business.
Mark is right about the 3408s, the Scania, and Fiat, (Unic) V8s made a far better noise, but those 3408s could be “turned up” to give some enormous horsepower in their day. I imported a 79, KW, W900, 3408, RTOO, SQHD, on 8 bag air, with a 100in Double Eagle, in 94, from Charlotte. The original owner I knew from my time there. With the Docs came a set of Dyno prints showing 602hp at the bogie!!! My Italian client was delighted, and I doubt if it has ever worked at more than 30tonnes gross since he purchased it, (and he still owns her today).
Dennis is right about the Foden/CAT mismatch for maximum weight tractor units. The 3306B never had the legs, or the economy of the big ■■■■■■■■ or the Scandanavians. But it was very different in the 8x4 tipper market. If I take Foden as an example the uprated 3306B @ 300hp &950lb ft @1350rpm, was a winner in the new “standardised” 8x4 chassis. It attracted a price premium of approx £ 700, over the standard 270hp version, (an LT 290 ■■■■■■■ was an additional £1700, and if you wanted a Rolls, (Perkins 300LE was about £2000 extra, and weighed 148kg extra)!
If I remember correctly by 1988 Foden had about 21%market share of the 8x4 market, just behind Leyland/DAF, as number 2, in the (at that time), booming market. Some engines had Gasket problems,( CATs were difficult to refill with coolant due to “airlocking”). I seem to remember that CAT were pretty good at attending to this problem. Their main advantage in the Tipper world was the light weight, (roughly he same as an L10 290 ■■■■■■■■■ but in the case of Foden without the cost penalty.
Its funny, if one looks at the US influence in the UK market, ■■■■■■■ were backing ERF, (and not just with product), and CAT were there with Foden, (Paccar), I wonder what plans were hatched, what promises made in a far off former colony about influence in the most competitive truck market in Europe, just something to think about! Cheerio for now.
Bewick:
bma.finland:
cat,s in finland did not go well,destroied sisu,s reputation for years,hej benkkuThats what I’ve been saying bma.The CAT engine was a waste of time in automotive form,it was a superb Plant and Generator and probably a Marine engine but not for roadgoing applications ! hej benkku! Bewick.
Blimey that’s re written the history on the use of and of Detroit and CAT truck diesel sales added together over the years now. 
Same story with everything one mans great lorry never put a spanner on it is another mans route to the bancrupcy court.
We had CAT loading shovels that were 100% reliable, we also had a couple of Foden eight leggers with CAT engines…they were taken out and S/Hand ■■■■■■■ put in their place as they were nothing but trouble due to head gasket failure and main bearing problems. A few local operators had problems with them in trucks, though I imagine that they are now much improved as there seem plenty about. A very compact engine though, they looked like a 6.354 Perkins compared to the R/R Eagle engines!
Pete.
Plenty of operators in this area have run lorries,both rigid six and eight wheelers,also artics with Cat engines and have had good reliable service out of them. If they were still making Foden or ERF most of them would still be buying them.
Cheers Dave.
I doubt Cat will see the demise of Foden as a big loss; They recently bought Bucyrus so their product range now includes the massive draglines you see on these “Mega” and “Massive” themed tv shows.
Cat plant just seems to go on forever; Many of their D8s that many enthusiasts and old timers recall so fondly are still earning.
My shovel’s almost finished its’ running in period; 9500 hours
the cats in sisu,s where euro4 15vand 18 litre from 2006 to 2009 ,sisu did not use other cat engines,before there were ■■■■■■■ until they get out from euroengines.i don,t blame other cat engines,couse non been used in truck,s here. truble was mostly whit afterburning system in tipper use,better in timber work ,regards benkku
Benkku, The ‘afterburner’ or the regeneration unit in the Diesel Particulate Filter (it’s official name) was a complete and utter disaster for CAT, it totally strangled their engines by producing so much back pressure that most of the efficiency of the engine was wiped out by the amount of energy needed to push out the exhaust gases. The DPF was forever clogging up and shutting the engine down, the twin turbo set up was forever failing, usually the low pressure turbo, but once that went, the high pressure one was on borrowed time.
My company had eight of them and they are all gone now, our usual policy is to run a truck for 5yrs, but the 08s were so unreliable that they never bought 09s, 2010s or 2011s, so the older pre DPF CATs and 60 Series DDs are still on the fleet. Now the Paccar MX is out the bosses have finally got new trucks again, but the new ones replaced the newest trucks on the fleet, rather than the usual practice of replacing the oldest ones. So now the fleet replacement cycle is all out of whack, luckily the 60 series and pre DPF CATs are still capable of doing a good day’s work. The CATs are starting to need rebuilding now, as they all have a million miles plus on them, mine has already been done, but now it’s starting to become a bit of a dog (as I said in an earlier post, my name is not Carryfast, so no need to repeat myself )
The fiasco was one (probably the most important) factor in CAT withdrawing from the truck engine market, there is a class action law suit going on right now, some companies had thousands of DPF CATs in their fleet and they all suffered the same problems, CAT will drag it on for years, but they will get a beating when the case comes to a close, you can’t argue the facts (do you hear that Carryfast 
)
They can be fixed though, a new ECM, new camshaft and removal of the variable valve actuators turns them back into a pre emission C15, most people doing this conversion also junk the twin turbos, obviously the catastrophic converters and the DPF go into the nearest skip and get replaced with some proper pipes, 7" straight through are the best for performance, anything bigger actually hurts power for some strange reason, smaller and you get a bit of unnecessary back pressure 
newmercman:
Benkku, The ‘afterburner’ or the regeneration unit in the Diesel Particulate Filter (it’s official name) was a complete and utter disaster for CAT, it totally strangled their engines by producing so much back pressure that most of the efficiency of the engine was wiped out by the amount of energy needed to push out the exhaust gases. The DPF was forever clogging up and shutting the engine down, the twin turbo set up was forever failing, usually the low pressure turbo, but once that went, the high pressure one was on borrowed time.My company had eight of them and they are all gone now, our usual policy is to run a truck for 5yrs, but the 08s were so unreliable that they never bought 09s, 2010s or 2011s, so the older pre DPF CATs and 60 Series DDs are still on the fleet. Now the Paccar MX is out the bosses have finally got new trucks again, but the new ones replaced the newest trucks on the fleet, rather than the usual practice of replacing the oldest ones. So now the fleet replacement cycle is all out of whack, luckily the 60 series and pre DPF CATs are still capable of doing a good day’s work. The CATs are starting to need rebuilding now, as they all have a million miles plus on them, mine has already been done, but now it’s starting to become a bit of a dog (as I said in an earlier post, my name is not Carryfast, so no need to repeat myself
The fiasco was one (probably the most important) factor in CAT withdrawing from the truck engine market, there is a class action law suit going on right now, some companies had thousands of DPF CATs in their fleet and they all suffered the same problems, CAT will drag it on for years, but they will get a beating when the case comes to a close, you can’t argue the facts (do you hear that Carryfast
They can be fixed though, a new ECM, new camshaft and removal of the variable valve actuators turns them back into a pre emission C15, most people doing this conversion also junk the twin turbos, obviously the catastrophic converters and the DPF go into the nearest skip and get replaced with some proper pipes, 7" straight through are the best for performance, anything bigger actually hurts power for some strange reason, smaller and you get a bit of unnecessary back pressure
Blimey so I was right all along just junk the whole lot and put a 3406 or 3408 in it.
But seriously what a mess for the company caused by an issue which isn’t really their fault.It’s time the yanks got some backbone and told their government to get off their back because no one there has actually voted for the raving loony green party only the almost as bad Obama lot by a whisker and in which state law should overrule federal law anyway so that’s all the republican ones exempt from all the bs green smog regs to start with.
They seem to be in a type of worst of all worlds situation anyway in which you oder a new wagon then it has to be fitted with all the smog bs then it all inevitably goes pear shaped.But when it has and resulted in a load of costs you can then junk it all and put the thing back to how it should have left the factory anyway free of all the smog bs.Then CAT gets hit with a class action for all the trouble,expense and inconvenience that the customers have all been put through. 
Or have I got my facts all wrong . 
Very valid points there carryfast and I agree with you but the European truck builders have got to euro 5 and well on the way to euro 6 without having engines blowing up all over the shop. Well dafs ad blue system is pretty dire and seems to give problems but other than that the rest seem ok.
kr79:
Very valid points there carryfast and I agree with you but the European truck builders have got to euro 5 and well on the way to euro 6 without having engines blowing up all over the shop. Well dafs ad blue system is pretty dire and seems to give problems but other than that the rest seem ok.
No one really has ‘got’ to do anything if they don’t want to especially in this case as the green tossers in the EU parlaiment,or our own government,haven’t got a majority or therefore an electoral mandate to keep imposing all this eco bs on everyone.All this issue would really take is for mass disobeying of the regs and just do what nmm is saying by throwing all the bs away where it belongs in the nearest skip with all new trucks leaving the factories on a smog bs free basis and if the EU officials don’t like it tough because otherwise nothing gets moved because the manufacturers would just be turning out wagons on a take it or leave it basis. 
We had a new 4000 series 6x4 tractor with a CAT3406b 400 in it, and it nearly broke us. Problems with lack of power and excessive smoke and fuel. Finally Levertons got it sorted then the headgasket and dropped no 6 liner problems started. Somebody stole it, which probably did us a favour. Bought a second hand 4000 series again with a 3406b 400 CAT in it, and again had problems with no 6 liner dropping. Enentually saw the light and threw the CAT away and put a 14 litre ■■■■■■■ in its place. Problem solved. I fully agree CATS in Fodens especially on general haulage were a disaster.
Haulage companies and lorry drivers stick together you must be on drugs
nyk473l:
We had a new 4000 series 6x4 tractor with a CAT3406b 400 in it, and it nearly broke us. Problems with lack of power and excessive smoke and fuel. Finally Levertons got it sorted then the headgasket and dropped no 6 liner problems started. Somebody stole it, which probably did us a favour.
How did the thing get it’s good reputation in trucks if those types of fault were a common issue with them .Maybe they were both Monday morning ones.But to think some say I’m mad saying that Detroits were the top of the US league when I don’t remember any Monday morning ones among all the ones used in the firm’s products and no unhappy customers.Just as well being that lives depended on them when needed in an emergency.
kr79:
Haulage companies and lorry drivers stick together you must be on drugs
They don’t really need to stick together they just need to do what nmm seems to be saying by all doing the same thing of throwing all the smog bs in the skip and the manufacturers need to save themselves all the bother by just refusing to comply and co operate with the regs, on a seperate self interest basis,by just refusing to install it all on new products which would all have the same effect.
Carryfast:
nyk473l:
We had a new 4000 series 6x4 tractor with a CAT3406b 400 in it, and it nearly broke us. Problems with lack of power and excessive smoke and fuel. Finally Levertons got it sorted then the headgasket and dropped no 6 liner problems started. Somebody stole it, which probably did us a favour.
How did the thing get it’s good reputation in trucks if those types of fault were a common issue with them
I know many people who had years of reliable service out of various cat powered fodens but I know a bloke who had a newish Volvo that nary bankrupted him just the way it goes sometimes.
Only thing I will say is anyone I knew who done major work on a cat engine they never seemed quite right after and gave trouble. A service exchange unit seemed a better bet in the long run.
Carryfast:
But seriously what a mess for the company caused by an issue which isn’t really their fault.It’s time the yanks got some backbone and told their government to get off their back because no one there has actually voted for the raving loony green party only the almost as bad Obama lot by a whisker and in which state law should overrule federal law anyway so that’s all the republican ones exempt from all the bs green smog regs to start with.They seem to be in a type of worst of all worlds situation anyway in which you oder a new wagon then it has to be fitted with all the smog bs then it all inevitably goes pear shaped.But when it has and resulted in a load of costs you can then junk it all and put the thing back to how it should have left the factory anyway free of all the smog bs.Then CAT gets hit with a class action for all the trouble,expense and inconvenience that the customers have all been put through.
Or have I got my facts all wrong
You are on the right track Carryfast, but with one exception, it is against Federal Law to tamper with the emission control system on any vehicle, so even switching a standard exhaust muffler for a free flow muffler is illegal. Nobody is checking at the moment, but it is still a risk.
This is why the glider is becoming popular again, you can remove all that junk on them, even though that is a sticky wicket, strictly speaking an engine manufactured in 08 should meet EPA07 regs, but the way it’s done is by putting a pre 03 6NZ ECM on, this is similar to putting new internals in an old engine, the engine is still classed as an old engine, yet everything inside is brand new, switching to an old pre emission ECM is just taking that to the extreme
That this is necessary is ridiculous, but at the end of the day Caterpillar has nobody but itself to blame for the crap they released to the market, instead of telling the EPA that they were asking for the impossible, they cobbled together a piece of junk and expected the end users to soak up all the breakdowns, that is just wrong
newmercman:
Carryfast:
But seriously what a mess for the company caused by an issue which isn’t really their fault.It’s time the yanks got some backbone and told their government to get off their back because no one there has actually voted for the raving loony green party only the almost as bad Obama lot by a whisker and in which state law should overrule federal law anyway so that’s all the republican ones exempt from all the bs green smog regs to start with.They seem to be in a type of worst of all worlds situation anyway in which you oder a new wagon then it has to be fitted with all the smog bs then it all inevitably goes pear shaped.But when it has and resulted in a load of costs you can then junk it all and put the thing back to how it should have left the factory anyway free of all the smog bs.Then CAT gets hit with a class action for all the trouble,expense and inconvenience that the customers have all been put through.
Or have I got my facts all wrong
You are on the right track Carryfast, but with one exception, it is against Federal Law to tamper with the emission control system on any vehicle, so even switching a standard exhaust muffler for a free flow muffler is illegal. Nobody is checking at the moment, but it is still a risk.
That this is necessary is ridiculous, but at the end of the day Caterpillar has nobody but itself to blame for the crap they released to the market, instead of telling the EPA that they were asking for the impossible, they cobbled together a piece of junk and expected the end users to soak up all the breakdowns, that is just wrong
I think they could do a lot worse than to start by thinking about that idea of converting the old two stroke Detroit uniflow design to spark ignition and electric blowers running on LPG than zb’ing about trying to keep the EPA happy by blocking up the exhaust stacks of CAT diesels considering the advances in spark ignition engine management and free flow catalytic converters in recent years.
There is a new design of two stroke out, it is a modular design, a little bit like the Gardner philosophy of designing a single cylinder and adding more as necessary. It was big news a year or so ago, but seems to have sliiped off the radar recently. I did see a cut away model at Louisville this year, but it was tucked away in the corner of the Navistar stand, no literature to be had and I asked a Navistar Host, but she was just there for eye candy, she did a bloody good job too