Car Insurance - question for the legal eagles

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
41

Out of interest if you had no injuries why did you take two weeks off work?

With regards to the £12 per hour, it’s unlikely anyone would believe you that you spent twenty hours a week on it, if you want to claim for this I would recommend that you start to make a note of ACTUAL time spent on it, this is very easy to do as you just record it in a diary etc. Any time spent for prior time spent take a realistic guess and enter this (Be realistic).

My previous posts outline what’s happening at the moment and what will happen.

If you know the drivers details there’s nothing stopping you taking him to court for your policy excess, if this is successful you then open up the flood gates for you and your Insurers to claim from his Insurers under the RTA section 151

42

Sorry I’ve not read all the replies but as i understand it, you were involved in an accident that was not your fault and your car was ■■■■■■,the other insurance company is playing hard ball and last but not lease your own insurance company is not being very helpful.
One thing I would check is who actually owns the insurance companies, Its not uncommon for insurance companies to be underwritten or owned by the same parent company.
A long shot maybe but might just explain why your own insurance is trying to force you into a settlement you are not happy with,thus reducing the payout it’s sister company would have to make to you.

43

Winseer:
It’s only the fact that they keep taking the ■■■■ out of me - both sides - that hardens my resolve to continue, and “cost them as much as possible regardless of the outcome”.

Let me be the first to tell you, its this attitude that will cost you.

You’ve been given advice on how to proceed with the matter. As an absolute fact you need to be able to identify the person you are going to claim against.
When you identify them, you contact them and tell them what you want in recompense. You seriously need to do your homework as regards who is the driver and is he insured, because the way you’re sounding you sound like you’re going to fire off a lawsuit to whoever is in your way of a pay out.
Bizzarley the courts expect you to have done everything possible to stay out of court, and although its mooted that Litigant in Person costs are around £12 per hour, the Judge will decided how many hours. And if you think 20hours per week since the accident then your on cloud cuckoo. He’ll allow you about 10 hours tops.
You’ll also be expected to show how you claim your salary, so if you claim a loss then be prepared to show what you usually earn. If you do not have all these figures for the court they’ll laugh at you. And if like so many of your long winded posts here (no offence intended) you waffle on about this and that, they’ll also laugh at you.
The system is not against you, you just need to be able to understand how it works. Do some research, lots of it. Right now. I still reckon you’ll ■■■■ it up though, you can’t help yourself i can just tell. :smiley:

44

Of course I’ll not be able to play this properly. I have no experience in dealing with the bunch of crooks that is the insurance industry.
I’m also wondering what the police are doing giving me this guy’s address, and then not actually doing anything about my “dispute”.
Lives with his mum & dad? Under 25? Drives a flash car probably bought on tick?

I can’t see myself getting much out of them directly… Just an ordinary joe living with their mum & dad on a modest housing estate… Car was almost certainally bought on tick, and the biggest asset they have was probably the car itself!

My attitude is that I have been wronged, and the system doesn’t stick up for me. OK that makes me naive that ‘I should expect something for the premiums I pay’ etc.

If I’ve got a court date, I’m obviously going to be going there with a lot of full-time research-gleaned evidence come that day…

Life shoudn’t always have to be about a decision for my whole life over a mere matter of someone at fault coughing up a reasonable and small amount in a forthcoming manner…

The two insuerers involved are BOTH GIANTS and have nothing to do with each other.

I’ve lost my holiday, rather than two weeks wages. What price do you put on that if it’s not the same as two weeks pay? Why can’t someone just make me an offer for this element, if they’re not happy with me claiming £1200?

1 hour a week? 20 hours a week? Why doesn’t the judge just decide what figure to put on this outright? After all, I have no receipts for “how much time” I’ve spent on anything, so therefore cannot prove any such thing anyway…

When I talk about “costing them a lot” I refer to the system rather than the OP. The OP doesn’t have a pot to ■■■■ in, but the system has billions. The fact they’d waste so much of their own admin times fretting off my claim suggests a cavalier attitude towards any party poorer than them getting anywhere at all - IF the major insurers all close ranks like they do… “We share data with other insurers” - shame the whole transport industry cannot run like that eh?

As for “doing everything possible to stay out of court” - I was once taken to court, and I made an offer way in advance of the date to settle. A very reasonable offer, well above what I’d researched to be the going rate for what was involved… This offer was not accepted as a “full and final settlement” by the plaintiff, so I refused to hand it over, just so they could be left free to ask me for even more… My offer came with the condition that it was in full and final settlement ONLY, which they refused to sign off on.
On the court day, the court did indeed come down like a ton of bricks on the PLAINTIFF for ‘not accepting my offer’… And awarded them £1!
In other words, I don’t want to get played off with a last-minute offer that no doubt will be about the “reasonable” offer I should have been made from the very beginning, but couldn’t get to save my life. :imp: This game shouldn’t be “heads you lose, tails you get your money back” - I expect FULL comeback for all the trouble I’ve gone though or PARTIAL comeback if the process has been made very easy for me - for example with a reasonable offer early on. “early on” is already 3 months hence, so I’m thinking the door of opportunity for them rather than myself is closing fast…

I’d sign my own claim on this occaison off like a shot - IF I had any reasonable offer to go with. I didn’t however, and I never did.
It’s the lack of any offer whatsoever that I consider the “system to be taking the ■■■■” here - not the extra burden of proof put upon my for “Proving” everything that should already have been proven in any police report they already have in their possession. I shouldn’t have to be doing my own policing, going around this guys house, etc. Things could get out of hand very easily, as I’m sure you’ll all agree. :neutral_face:

45

Mike-C:

Winseer:
It’s only the fact that they keep taking the ■■■■ out of me - both sides - that hardens my resolve to continue, and “cost them as much as possible regardless of the outcome”.

Let me be the first to tell you, its this attitude that will cost you.

You’ve been given advice on how to proceed with the matter. As an absolute fact you need to be able to identify the person you are going to claim against.
When you identify them, you contact them and tell them what you want in recompense. You seriously need to do your homework as regards who is the driver and is he insured, because the way you’re sounding you sound like you’re going to fire off a lawsuit to whoever is in your way of a pay out.
Bizzarley the courts expect you to have done everything possible to stay out of court, and although its mooted that Litigant in Person costs are around £12 per hour, the Judge will decided how many hours. And if you think 20hours per week since the accident then your on cloud cuckoo. He’ll allow you about 10 hours tops.
You’ll also be expected to show how you claim your salary, so if you claim a loss then be prepared to show what you usually earn. If you do not have all these figures for the court they’ll laugh at you. And if like so many of your long winded posts here (no offence intended) you waffle on about this and that, they’ll also laugh at you.
The system is not against you, you just need to be able to understand how it works. Do some research, lots of it. Right now. I still reckon you’ll [zb] it up though, you can’t help yourself i can just tell. :smiley:

An excellent post you should take notice of.

To clarify for the benefit of the OP, due to the RTA section 151 making the Insurer liable to pay claims for any driver not actually covered by the policy. If the driver of the car is “identified” then you can claim from the Insurance policy. It’s why the Insurers are stalling the claim until after the leaving the scene court case has been heard. If he’s found not guilty it does not preclude you from taking him to court where as mentioned a different judge will look at the case and use a lower standard to work out if they’re guilty eg on “The balance of probabilities”. So him being found not guilty does not stop you claiming from his policy.

You need to heed the posters advice about working methodically and if you want to claim for time spent on the matter it would help you greatly if you start making a note of the actually time spent and any costs incurred eg stamps and phone calls.

You did not answer whether you were injured or not and why you needed to take the two weeks off work

46

Why are you reluctant to show them your accounts? It seems you’re going for the holiday pay as it’s worth more to you then what you’d typically earn in two weeks. Why have you lost two weeks? Rent a car (as long as it’s not the most extravagent) and claim that cost back.
If you haven’t paid a premium to protect your no claims then you can’t be upset when you lose it. Even if it’s not your fault thats how insurance works and by paying your insurer thats the terms you agreed to with them.
I’ve had similar where I was parked and hit by a driver who fled the scene. Police said no trace of owner. I contacted DVLA, paid £2.50 and got his address. Police proscecuted him and I was awarded £300 by the court. Im still waiting for it 10 years later because the bloke didn’t have a pot to ■■■■ in.
Sometimes life ■■■■■ but Mike-C has made a good post above. (especially the bit about being long winded - people lose interest quickly and any valid point is lost in translation)

47

(1) I’m not showing accounts - because I’m not self-employed. The agency I work for has nothing to do with all this. They’ve already written a letter stating how much I’ve lost due to “work I was unable to get to” - which has already been rejected by my own side as “not being sufficient”. They want 3-6 months payslips to back that up, which doesn’t help me - because like other agency workers, January-February doesn’t look good on paper… I’m surprised to note that drawing down holiday pay so I can still pay the bloody mortgage - goes against me here. “Should have got by on nowt” I’m being told. Well, that money in the pot no longer exists, so as far as I’m concerned it’s cost me what I’ve drawn down, and the holiday I now cannot take the last 2 weeks of August. Good job I’d not booked anything “away”.

(2) I took two weeks off because (a) I had no car, and no money to buy another one until I had been paid my holiday pot drawdown and received the “market value” settlement. I didn’t feel very well on and off during this period either (ringing in ears, loss of fluid from left ear, loss of balance, threw up when standing up quickly & spent a night in hospital) but I got better quick, and therefore don’t think I actually have a claim for personal injury here. It’s too tenuous I think.

(3) I was offered a courtesy car by both sides - but on the basis I paid up-front for it, and claim it back. Sorry bud, I’ve just spent my drawn down holiday pot on paying the monthly bills. I have a rather large mortgage to cover in particular. I can’t claim for that, but the mortgage lender will certainally fall on me like a ton of bricks if I miss a payment I’m sure! I don’t have credit cards, etc. and it’s baulked me enough that I’ve now had to take out a consumer credit agreement on top of running up an overdraft to pay my new inflated premium this last week! I detest paying ‘interest’, but I’m told there’s a good chance I can claim that back at least…

(4) I’ve been told I get my no claims back (minus a “load”) once I sign off a settlement, so my side get paid all their costs. Because the other side have offered nothing at all, and I’ve been asked to sign-off THAT, I’ve refused, and now I’m punished with “well, you don’t get your no claims back then john!”
If there’s such a thing as “Protected no claims” that gives one ‘max 9 years back even if you’re in a 100% own-fault accident’, - then I never took that kind of policy out of course… I never needed to protect myself from my own mistakes - just situations like I’m going through now - and from what I’m seeing so far, it’s about as effective as PPI it seems…

(5) I’m supposed to have all this legal cover, but so far all they’ve done is tell me what I don’t want to hear. What I expected for that “legal cover” was a quick offer (negotiated by them) in the post within the reasonable timeframe of 90 days. That expires today… I accept I’ve been naive here, thinking I would actually get something automatically positive from what I’ve paid for…

(6) I’ve got notes of dates, times, etc. with regards to time spent on this (now 22.45 hours) - but since it’s only my word written down - how does this constitute “evidence” which anyone will take seriously? I’ve made recordings because I don’t get itemised/paper phone bills other than a total for one month that, once again, can only be compared with previous months to see what I’m paying out “over the odds” for. It’s only a vague guide at best. Nothing concrete. My own estimate is a mere £27 so far in phone calls, most of that in the early weeks rather than of late.

(7) I could easily identify the drive by going around their house unexpected, and talking to the parents… The police have not told me if the “keeper of the vehicle” is the person driving when I was hit… I don’t know the name of the unidentified passenger for example, who seemed to be injured in the collision… (all this on original police statement I made) Two bystander witnesses could probably pick the driver on the night out from a line-up as well.

48

Winseer:
(1) I’m not showing accounts - because I’m not self-employed. The agency I work for has nothing to do with all this. They’ve already written a letter stating how much I’ve lost due to “work I was unable to get to” - which has already been rejected by my own side as “not being sufficient”. They want 3-6 months payslips to back that up, which doesn’t help me - because like other agency workers, January-February doesn’t look good on paper… I’m surprised to note that drawing down holiday pay so I can still pay the bloody mortgage - goes against me here. “Should have got by on nowt” I’m being told. Well, that money in the pot no longer exists, so as far as I’m concerned it’s cost me what I’ve drawn down, and the holiday I now cannot take the last 2 weeks of August. Good job I’d not booked anything “away”.

(2) I took two weeks off because (a) I had no car, and no money to buy another one until I had been paid my holiday pot drawdown and received the “market value” settlement. I didn’t feel very well on and off during this period either (ringing in ears, loss of fluid from left ear, loss of balance, threw up when standing up quickly & spent a night in hospital) but I got better quick, and therefore don’t think I actually have a claim for personal injury here. It’s too tenuous I think.

(3) I was offered a courtesy car by both sides - but on the basis I paid up-front for it, and claim it back. Sorry bud, I’ve just spent my drawn down holiday pot on paying the monthly bills. I have a rather large mortgage to cover in particular. I can’t claim for that, but the mortgage lender will certainally fall on me like a ton of bricks if I miss a payment I’m sure! I don’t have credit cards, etc. and it’s baulked me enough that I’ve now had to take out a consumer credit agreement on top of running up an overdraft to pay my new inflated premium this last week! I detest paying ‘interest’, but I’m told there’s a good chance I can claim that back at least…

(4) I’ve been told I get my no claims back (minus a “load”) once I sign off a settlement, so my side get paid all their costs. Because the other side have offered nothing at all, and I’ve been asked to sign-off THAT, I’ve refused, and now I’m punished with “well, you don’t get your no claims back then john!”
If there’s such a thing as “Protected no claims” that gives one ‘max 9 years back even if you’re in a 100% own-fault accident’, - then I never took that kind of policy out of course… I never needed to protect myself from my own mistakes - just situations like I’m going through now - and from what I’m seeing so far, it’s about as effective as PPI it seems…

(5) I’m supposed to have all this legal cover, but so far all they’ve done is tell me what I don’t want to hear. What I expected for that “legal cover” was a quick offer (negotiated by them) in the post within the reasonable timeframe of 90 days. That expires today… I accept I’ve been naive here, thinking I would actually get something automatically positive from what I’ve paid for…

(6) I’ve got notes of dates, times, etc. with regards to time spent on this (now 22.45 hours) - but since it’s only my word written down - how does this constitute “evidence” which anyone will take seriously? I’ve made recordings because I don’t get itemised/paper phone bills other than a total for one month that, once again, can only be compared with previous months to see what I’m paying out “over the odds” for. It’s only a vague guide at best. Nothing concrete. My own estimate is a mere £27 so far in phone calls, most of that in the early weeks rather than of late.

(7) I could easily identify the drive by going around their house unexpected, and talking to the parents… The police have not told me if the “keeper of the vehicle” is the person driving when I was hit… I don’t know the name of the unidentified passenger for example, who seemed to be injured in the collision… (all this on original police statement I made) Two bystander witnesses could probably pick the driver on the night out from a line-up as well.

  1. As I’ve mentioned a few times, if you took paid holiday off work then you did not lose out financially so cannot normally also claim for loss of earnings. If you would normally earn more than your paid holiday due to overtime etc etc and can prove it then you can claim for this if you can provide suitable proof to back it up.

You have a general duty to mitigate your losses, this means that wherever reasonably practical you need to try to keep your losses down. It may have been that you could have still got to work via public transport or taxis or hired or borrowed a vehicle.

Obviously if it’s not practical to use public transport or cost effective to use taxis or you could not afford to hire a vehicle that rules them out.

  1. If you saw your GP or attended hospital you should be able to claim for personal injury, it probably won’t be a lot and if you use an ambulance chaser they will want a percentage of your compensation but it’s worth looking into

  2. Generally in an incident that at the time of reporting (which I would assume this was as you were hit by a drunk driver who the police arrested) then Credit Hire companies who provide a hire car at inflated cost but claim it from the other party would normally be falling over themselves to offer one. On the same vein the other Insurer would also normally be trying to offer one at their own cost as they can hire a car at a dramatically lower cost than CH companies offer.

  3. If you decide not to pay the extra to protect your no claims bonus then it’s standard practice to reduce your no claims bonus util either you or your Insurer reclaim your costs from the other side.

  4. Legal Cover providers can be hit or miss but they’re trying to reclaim monies from the other party, if the other party refuse then their options are to either take action or close the claim or wait. As pointed out a few times, it sounds like the other Insurers are awaiting on the leaving the scene court case to see if they’re liable under section 151 RTA. If so they will be stalling your Legal Cover and there’s little they can.

  5. If you’ve kept records then when / if the other side accept liability you can put this forward as part of your claim (Let your Legal cover know you want to do this asap), if it goes to court then as the other poster has explained if the costs are reasonable and the judge believes you then they’ll add it to your compensation. Judges like paperwork / records as they see it as good evidence, so if you’ve been keeping good records of your time and costs there’s a good chance a judge will believe this

  6. As I explained before, the RTA makes the other Insurer liable if judgement is obtained against the driver of the car irrespective of whether they’re covered by the policy. In effect this means if they’re “identified”, in your situation it’s either a case of the criminal case finding the driver guilty or you or your insurers obtaining judgement against him.

However the MIB may accept the police report as identifying the driver, as mentioned before speak to the MIB asap

Have you rung the MIB yet as I advised, if not do it and also register the injury aspect as if you claim for injuries or other costs from the MIB you need to report it to them fairly quickly otherwise they cannot help if the other Insurers get out of RTA obligations

49

Winseer, you make it hard for anyone to help you. I dont mean to be rude but you waffle on so much and really you need to bullet point certain facts. I’ve read and re read this several times and you waffling takes ones eye of the ball. You’ve said you know who the driver is, or the registered keeper or one or the other. You’re not sure if the registered keeper is the driver etc… And i missed a very important sentence from you in your opening OP.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=116307#p1787439

Their insurance company tells me that they won’t pay out, because “their insured driver was breaking the law at the time of impact, thus invalidating their cover”.

Now i hope you have this in writing, because if you have it makes it easy for you to move foreward. Can you confirm if you have this in writing? Yes/No will do, we don’t need to know about the corrupt capatilism state whereby bankers enrich themselves at our expense and insurers are just as bad etc…
Yes or no, do you have that in writing ?

50

The law requires the insurance company to cover the payout of third party claims even when their customer is breaking the law like this so the drunk driver’s insurer has to pay you out as they would any other claim if you’re not at fault. What they then have to do is claim the cost of that payout from their customer. Either way, the fact their customer was drunk has no bearing on this from your point of view other than making them 100% liable.

They’re trying to frighten you. Don’t let them. Find a good ambulance chasing solicitor.

51

Not read all of the long posts on page 2.

  1. I would advise anyone never to accept the initial alleged “market value” payment for a written off vehicle. This payment can very often be negotiated upwards.

  2. I really would suggest engaging the services of a reputable claims management co. They will remove a lot of your stress by handling all of this and achieve a larger payout than you would yourself.

52

Mike-C:
Winseer, you make it hard for anyone to help you. I dont mean to be rude but you waffle on so much and really you need to bullet point certain facts. I’ve read and re read this several times and you waffling takes ones eye of the ball. You’ve said you know who the driver is, or the registered keeper or one or the other. You’re not sure if the registered keeper is the driver etc… And i missed a very important sentence from you in your opening OP.

I met the driver on the night, before they fled the scene. I don’t know if this person is the owner of the car. It could have been the passenger, bearing in mind this other person was totally out of his skull… They never got out of the car. The police arrested the “keeper of the vehicle” days later, so of course there’s no DD evidence by then. I only know of “Leaving the scene of an accident” as being part of the charge sheet. The police have given me no other information, other than the registered keeper’s name and address.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=116307#p1787439

Their insurance company tells me that they won’t pay out, because “their insured driver was breaking the law at the time of impact, thus invalidating their cover”.

Now i hope you have this in writing, because if you have it makes it easy for you to move foreward. Can you confirm if you have this in writing? Yes/No will do, we don’t need to know about the corrupt capatilism state whereby bankers enrich themselves at our expense and insurers are just as bad etc…
Yes or no, do you have that in writing ?

Alas, I don’t have it in writing - despite requesting it so. I suspected they might be trying it on here…
All I do have in writing is a request to sign off an indemnity letter, which reads as if I cannot claim anything further once I’ve signed it. Ie. it looks like I accept £0 as full and final settlement. My insurer ask that I sign this anyway, because it’ll close down their costs claimback, and I’ll get my no claims re-instated as an incentive, but not all of it.

I’ll be talking to MIB later today.

53

Did you talk to the Motor Insurers Bureau?

54

… and a claim management company?

55

Driveroneuk:
… and a claim management company?

They tend to only take on open and shut cases as they want an Insurer to pay their inflated costs.

It’s worth trying one but I suspect once the OP gets past the first layer of call centre staff they will want to wait until the court case is settled with the other driver found guilty

56

thecouch:
There are actually a few reasons why a person and in turn their Insurer would not be liable for what you would assume was a clear cut accident. It entirely depends on the exact reasons for the accident but could include being hit by someone whose had a heart attack, someone whose skidded on black ice or had a tyre blow out.

Their insurance company still has to pay out.

57

Conor:

thecouch:
There are actually a few reasons why a person and in turn their Insurer would not be liable for what you would assume was a clear cut accident. It entirely depends on the exact reasons for the accident but could include being hit by someone whose had a heart attack, someone whose skidded on black ice or had a tyre blow out.

Their insurance company still has to pay out.

As i have explained in previous posts there are circumstances where the other Insurer does not have to pay out, in the OP’s situation if the driver of the third parties car is not “identified” and / or a “Judgement” obtained against them then the Insurer is not liable.

It’s part of the Road Traffic Act.

It’s the reason I assume the Insurer are stalling the OP until the result of the court case against the other driver about leaving the scene of the accident which will in effect identify the driver. If the court case fails it will be up to the OP to either obtain judgement against the other driver or “identify” them.

With regards to skidding on black ice, depending on the exact circumstances the Insurance company may not be liable, the same applies with a tyre blow out or a medical problem such as a heart attack causing the accident.

I will happily provide case law to prove this if you still don’t believe me

58

don’t understand how your renewal has tripled,it wasn’t your fault if you were rearended,find another insurance company

59

I was involved in a non fault accident resulting in minor injury some years ago, the insurer contacted my wages department and requested information on my loss of earnings (what my employer had paid out in sick pay) and reimbursed my employer directly. I never did get back the loss of my regular overtime I was doing.

I agree with your insurers that’s it’s standard practice to ask what you earn, they can’t just take your word for it, they’d need proof.

I’m assuming your reluctance in granting them permission to this information is because your LTD Co and you’ll only get £200 for each week you were off?

If this is the case I’m afraid you’ll probably have to take the ‘hit’ on loss of earnings and hopefully gain some back with the injuries claim from the injury you suffered.

Either way I hope you get what your owed.

60

I drew down holiday pot to make up enough in wages whilst I was without a car and out of sorts.

The alternative was two weeks with zero coming in - when like everyone else, I’ve got regular outgoings and bills to pay.

I’m told this was a bad move, as drawing off holiday means I didn’t lose anything. Can’t see how that works, as I’ve lost my holiday I now cannot take at another time…
If I nick £500 quid off someone, and they perform £500 worth of overtime to make up the bill payments - does that mean they didn’t lose anything? - Not a very good analogy I know, but I’m completely perplexed by how bad the insurance companies on both sides have treated me here.

I may have to go down the personal injury avenue - because there is no other road to go down. I’d rather not because that’s going to be the hardest of all things in the world to prove in my favour.

Why couldn’t I just get a reasonable standard offer of settlement from the other insurer? - Dunno. I just guess they’re all a bunch of crooks who’ll happily take a bad driver’s hefty premiums, but won’t pay out even when bang to rights without attempting every trick in the book to get the wronged driver - myself - to fold and go away beforehand. The latest is “they are awaiting the outcome of the police case against their driver”. If he’s guilty, they’ll not pay out because he’s invalidated his insurance. If he’s not guilty, they won’t pay out because he’s been deemed to have not done anything wrong legally.
Lose/Lose for me by the looks of it.
I despair. :frowning:
I shouldn’t have to “sue” to get a standard payout FFS! :imp: