Canvassing tacho law opinion.

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

tachograph:

dle1uk:
the comments from stevie and rog, as well as comments in other posts proves that the tacho laws need cleaning up…

I think the problem here is confusion where both the driver regulations and the working time regulations are being discussed, it’s certainly proof that as far as breaks are concerned there should only be one set of regulations that need to be complied with rather than the two separate sets of regulations that we have now.

i’m not having a go at damoq! but!! the confusion has come from (on my part anyway!) him replying after my post that i’d quoted him in, but didn’t quote rog who it looks like he was replying to, but what he’d wrote also fitted in with a reply to what i’d wrote, so i replied to clarify what i’d originally said

so on this matter anyway, nothing needs cleaning up for my benefit thank you very much :laughing: :laughing:

22

tachograph:

dle1uk:
the comments from stevie and rog, as well as comments in other posts proves that the tacho laws need cleaning up…

I think the problem here is confusion where both the driver regulations and the working time regulations are being discussed, it’s certainly proof that as far as breaks are concerned there should only be one set of regulations that need to be complied with rather than the two separate sets of regulations that we have now.

I agree - why they did not just add a max 6 hour work/drive break rule to 561/2006 is beyond me because that would have prevented the need for the RTD

Employment law could have easily stated the minimum holliday entitlement

23

they do need cleaning up, not just for the driver, for everyone involved, and the rules are the ones everyone sticks to… at my old place i used to get called into te office every week for not putting total mileage down on tacho,well after being caught out by and putting wrong mileage inn and getting an infringement I decided not to put totals down any more as being told/and advised in cpc that this is not an infringement… But then analysis company used to say it was… as well as the multidrop scenario 2 hours driving but used to get called into office for not taking 45■■ ad the hand my tachos in clean but analysis would send back saying dirty tacho. all above would lead to disciplinary, which is why i left and have never since had a complaint re my tacho,s…

there needs to be one set of clear rulings that all work by… and some way of representation for the driver where the company decide to impose their own thoughts on tacho law…

24

tachograph:

ROG:

damoq:
But if I was to take 3x15, or a 30 then a 15, it comes up as an infringement on my tacho analysis for taking my breaks incorrectly.

If the analysis gives you infringements for taking 3 x 15s for more than 9 hours drive/work in a shift where the driving time is less than 4.5 hours then YOU ARE LEGAL and the analysis is WRONG - you cannot get a legal infringement for being legal !!

Nonsense, for all you know he could be getting an infringement for exceeding 6 hours working time without a break.

damoq:

ROG:

Essexboy:
I’m a multidrop driver and would like the 3x 15mins breaks re introduced as having to have a 15 then a 30 is daft when sometimes I only do 90 mins driving!

If you only do 90 mins driving then there is no need for any tacho break

But you still need your break for the WTD. 30mins after 6hrs work or 45mins if you are going to do more than 9hrs.

So if you take your 30mins on the assumption that you’ll be finished your shift before you reach 9hrs, then something comes up meaning you go over 9hrs, you then need to take a further 30min break. So because your 2nd break has to be at least 30mins, now means you have taken an hour’s break when you might only have done 90mins driving for the whole day.

I know the easy answer would be just to take a 45 after your 6hrs and that should cover you for the full day, but those on multi drop will know that’s not always practical. So yes, the 3x15 would be a welcome return.

If you’re doing less than a total of 4.5 hours driving time you can split the break into 15 minute parts.

The break for the 6 hour rule is 15 minutes before exceeding 6 hours working time, then you could take another break of 15 minutes later or if your working time is more than 9 hours you could take either another 30 minute break or another two 15 minute breaks, if your driving time won’t reach 4.5 hours it’s your choice how you take the breaks.

In fact if you’re working time is more than 9 hours and your driving time is less than 4.5 hours you could have a 20 minute break at 6 hours then another break of 25 minutes later on.

The only time that the second break needs to be 30 minutes is when it’s the second part of a split driving break.

You seem to be confusing the WTD breaks with the driving breaks, if you’re getting infringements you really need to check exactly what they’re for :wink:

I always have a 15 and a 30 as always go over 9 hrs work very rarely go over 2hrs drive though :sunglasses:

25

damoq:

ROG:

Essexboy:
I’m a multidrop driver and would like the 3x 15mins breaks re introduced as having to have a 15 then a 30 is daft when sometimes I only do 90 mins driving!

If you only do 90 mins driving then there is no need for any tacho break

But you still need your break for the WTD. 30mins after 6hrs work or 45mins if you are going to do more than 9hrs.

So if you take your 30mins on the assumption that you’ll be finished your shift before you reach 9hrs, then something comes up meaning you go over 9hrs, you then need to take a further 30min break. So because your 2nd break has to be at least 30mins, now means you have taken an hour’s break when you might only have done 90mins driving for the whole day.

I know the easy answer would be just to take a 45 after your 6hrs and that should cover you for the full day, but those on multi drop will know that’s not always practical. So yes, the 3x15 would be a welcome return.

Bang on! Couldn’t agree more :sunglasses:

26

Taking a 15 then 30 will usually cover all bases for most drivers so is the recommended way to do it if splitting the break

A multidrop driver who usually does very little actual driving may find themselves needing the tacho 15+30 break towards the end of the day if the boss has a long urgent run for them

Taking a 45 too early may leave more than 6 hours work on the back half of the shift so will then need another 15 min break

27

I have never had an infringement since being on 3663 as the 15 then 30 rule is what we are told to use. If I know I’m going to be done before 9 hrs and less than 4.5 drive I will only take a 30 at 11oc and that covers me for my shift.

28

ROG:
Taking a 15 then 30 will usually cover all bases for most drivers so is the recommended way to do it if splitting the break

A multidrop driver who usually does very little actual driving may find themselves needing the tacho 15+30 break towards the end of the day if the boss has a long urgent run for them

Taking a 45 too early may leave more than 6 hours work on the back half of the shift so will then need another 15 min break

That has happened on the odd occasion if I get back early and have to go on a error recovery or to help another driver out so always have a 15 somewhere to stay legal.

29

I think your all wrong here, there’s no need to change anything.

If you do you mite as well give up driving now.

You all forget we work, that’s most of us, for a company that wants to make money.
If there was no max driving limit in place and only 8 hours rest as some of you have said, you be unemployed as your job would be lost in the extra hours other drivers can do so employers would not need as many drivers to do the job, and not as many trucks on the road, unemployment would be 5 million plus and the nock on affect would be catastrophic for this county and the euro zone

For ever driver doing the job as is if we change it and drove and work more 1 in 3 driver would be out of work and companies would be laughing all the way to the bank.

and don’t tell me someone won’t work that long, because there be a lot of us that do, now and would to get your job

30

The 15 hr day should be stopped,as most employers accept this as the norm, so vosa should revert back to its former 13hr max, although the ideal situation would be 12 on 12 off.
Whilst unloading/loading the break mode switch should not be allowed to be used, i have had many arguments as to why i am having a break when i`ve been parked up for 2 hours, most places do not have adequate food resources, just a coffee machine and a chocolate bar snack, may be alright for some, but not for me over a 15 hr day.
I think the break rule should also be changed, so long as a driver has a break within a certain period, say 6 hrs should suffice, and revert back to the 3 x 15 rule.

31

dle1uk:
they do need cleaning up, not just for the driver, for everyone involved, and the rules are the ones everyone sticks to… at my old place i used to get called into te office every week for not putting total mileage down on tacho,well after being caught out by and putting wrong mileage inn and getting an infringement I decided not to put totals down any more as being told/and advised in cpc that this is not an infringement… But then analysis company used to say it was… as well as the multidrop scenario 2 hours driving but used to get called into office for not taking 45■■ ad the hand my tachos in clean but analysis would send back saying dirty tacho. all above would lead to disciplinary, which is why i left and have never since had a complaint re my tacho,s…

there needs to be one set of clear rulings that all work by… and some way of representation for the driver where the company decide to impose their own thoughts on tacho law…

just how much cleaning would you have to do before this analysis company got it right? the 3 things that you’ve mentioned are basic stuff.

how much getting basic stuff wrong before the haulage company questioned the analysis company?

you have access to the rules, did you ever point out that they’re wrong backing it up with the relevant regs? or ask them to ring VOSA? when handing the charts over after the first few came back dirty, did you get the office bod to acknowledge / sign for the clean condition of the charts?

do you really think simplifying the regs would stop your scenario from happening again? you’re always going to get people that do a ■■■■ job.

but i do believe they need cleaning.

32

stevieboy308:

dle1uk:
they do need cleaning up, not just for the driver, for everyone involved, and the rules are the ones everyone sticks to… at my old place i used to get called into te office every week for not putting total mileage down on tacho,well after being caught out by and putting wrong mileage inn and getting an infringement I decided not to put totals down any more as being told/and advised in cpc that this is not an infringement… But then analysis company used to say it was… as well as the multidrop scenario 2 hours driving but used to get called into office for not taking 45■■ ad the hand my tachos in clean but analysis would send back saying dirty tacho. all above would lead to disciplinary, which is why i left and have never since had a complaint re my tacho,s…

there needs to be one set of clear rulings that all work by… and some way of representation for the driver where the company decide to impose their own thoughts on tacho law…

just how much cleaning would you have to do before this analysis company got it right? the 3 things that you’ve mentioned are basic stuff.

how much getting basic stuff wrong before the haulage company questioned the analysis company?

you have access to the rules, did you ever point out that they’re wrong backing it up with the relevant regs? or ask them to ring VOSA? when handing the charts over after the first few came back dirty, did you get the office bod to acknowledge / sign for the clean condition of the charts?

do you really think simplifying the regs would stop your scenario from happening again? you’re always going to get people that do a [zb] job.

but i do believe they need cleaning.

as said i voted with my feet and walked!! however how many guys and lasses up and down the country are being treated the same? the company i worked for was a multi national drinks firm and they are treating staff this way… just look at the questions on this forum re tacho,s ect , nearly every day someone posts something to do tacho,s or breaks or wtd and some of the questions come from experienced drivers so how are new drivers going to cope with the fact they are getting told several different things and the added pressure of probably being gratefull to the employer for getting a start in the first place…

how much getting basic stuff wrong before the haulage company questioned the analysis company?

they are using a FTA registered analysis company (however I think the company in question that i worked for have added their own things to check, )

you have access to the rules, did you ever point out that they’re wrong backing it up with the relevant regs? or ask them to ring VOSA? when handing the charts over after the first few came back dirty, did you get the office bod to acknowledge / sign for the clean condition of the charts?

yep pointed out several times but eventually you get the trouble maker stamp and end up with crap runs, or crap drivers mate ect, i refused to hand over any tachos to office bod and would personally do it wit the TM and get him to check and sign for each tacho stating no damage, dirty marks ect…

as in transport your either a yes man or you stand you ground and can get treated like ■■■■■■ alot of the other guys i worked with were good lads but with the treatment given they were getting stressed ect, 1 set of clear rules that all work to would cut the crap, at the moment the rules are not clear, personal interpretation of the rules is evident and its not easy to prove your point without getting several different opinions…

"They are much too complex for all practical purposes.

If you put 100 VOSA officers in a room with a complex scenario involving driver hours, would you get one answer a hundred times…?

Or a hundred answers once?

Or a variation on the above"

definately agree with this

33

20hour days, with 10 hours off, 15 hour driving time limit, 5hours driving 1hour break cant split, not allowed to work more than 5 days then must have 2days rest.

34

Saaamon:
20hour days, with 10 hours off, 15 hour driving time limit, 5hours driving 1hour break cant split, not allowed to work more than 5 days then must have 2days rest.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

35

For construction drivers who are home every night 55 hours aweek max 11 hours aday book on to book off.no weekly rest as such.min 3x 15 min breaks when you like .dump the silly WTD. For the distance boys only one night out in a sleeper the rest in a hotel min 3 star.15 hour spread down to 13 and two half hour breaks when you like, No rest on the side of a road,must be far enough away so as the driver can exit cab without getting knocked down or a continuose rock from passing traffic…hows that

36

dle1uk:
the comments from stevie and rog, as well as comments in other posts proves that the tacho laws need cleaning up…

No it doesn’t. It proves the DCPC is needed. The rules are not new and there have been very few changes to tacho rules since I started driving lorries over two decades ago.

37

dle1uk:
the comments from stevie and rog, as well as comments in other posts proves that the tacho laws need cleaning up…

No it doesn’t. It proves the DCPC is needed. The rules are not new and there have been very few changes to tacho rules since I started driving lorries over two decades ago.

38

Conor:

dle1uk:
the comments from stevie and rog, as well as comments in other posts proves that the tacho laws need cleaning up…

No it doesn’t. It proves the DCPC is needed. The rules are not new and there have been very few changes to tacho rules since I started driving lorries over two decades ago.

wow wow wow wow wow, i was a lack of quote issue :laughing: :laughing:

39

What the tacho law has never done is recorded sleep or fatigue, no one should have to work 13/15 hour days because the law says its permissible.
The electronic tacho was a missed opportunity to give the driver all the info needed to stay within the law, but no, you still have to press buttons and squint at tiny displays and work out how many times youve broken the law in the latest shift.
As for the dcpc teaching drivers how to do their job? Pah!, how many other occupations require this kind of crap? A no fail test is as good as not bothering, you dont have the same rules for passing your hgv test. Thats because there is a skill in driving you need to master, ticking boxes is for MP’s .

40

Conor:

dle1uk:
the comments from stevie and rog, as well as comments in other posts proves that the tacho laws need cleaning up…

No it doesn’t. It proves the DCPC is needed. The rules are not new and there have been very few changes to tacho rules since I started driving lorries over two decades ago.

tacho laws have only changed three times IIRC! :open_mouth: 1974, 1984 and 2003 off the top of my head! :sunglasses: :laughing: :laughing: :grimacing: :grimacing: