But the same issue is there for cars, pass in a 1.0ltr corsa, then jump in a 3500kg van or sports car, I agree with Peter you cannot cover every eventuality. The gaining of a licence is the start of the learning process, most drivers are still learning things several years into the job.
DoYouMeanMe?:
Here’s a joke situation. My mate has his HGV which is for a wagon and drag, but not an artic. To get his artic licence he has to re-sit his test. He can do it in a wagon and drag which he is already licenced to drive. You couldn’t make it up…
Not sure what you mean, if he has a licence for wag+drag why can’t he drive an artic? Surely they are the same category, unit and a trailer.
Foxstein:
DoYouMeanMe?:
Here’s a joke situation. My mate has his HGV which is for a wagon and drag, but not an artic. To get his artic licence he has to re-sit his test. He can do it in a wagon and drag which he is already licenced to drive. You couldn’t make it up…Not sure what you mean, if he has a licence for wag+drag why can’t he drive an artic? Surely they are the same category, unit and a trailer.
They are are now mate…
but in the pre-1997 Stone Age, a W&D was HGV Class 2 or HGV Class 3 (With OR without trailer, 
) and an artic was HGV Class 1
Whether a HGV Class 2 or 3 licence was needed depended on the number of axles on the prime mover.
2 axles WAS HGV Class 3.
3 or 4 axles WAS HGV Class 2.
If you had a HGV Class 2 OR HGV Class 3 licence, the trailer was an irrelevant freebie.
Strange, but true. 
Peter Smythe:
To learn on artic simply makes your life harder and I cant understand why anyone would want to do that.
This seems to be belived by a lot of people on here, myself i dont see it. Wag and drags are better for the trainer as of course its far cheaper that than the alternative. But easier and more likely to pass first time im not so sure. I passes first time on artic yet theres been cases of multiple attemps on wag and drag its no magic answer to getting your licence, plus you have the cost of going out in an artic for a bit to get used to what you will in all probability be driving.
From being on here and reading peoples diarys and such a lot of fails are due to a “stupid” mistake, this could happen in either. Regardless of what your driving if your trained to the level to pass you should but nerves or just bad luck can affect you what ever your driving.
Mjdhehir:
After getting class C is it better to get trained in a articulated tractor unit & trailer
Or with a wagon & drawbar trailer.
Because this could influence who I would select to be trained by.
Go for which ever you want its totally up to you. But dont fear the artics i found as you were already used to the width and such from learning to drive the rigid it wast to bad going to artic. What ever you decide best of luck.
Phil
porky:
From being on here and reading peoples diarys and such a lot of fails are due to a “stupid” mistake, this could happen in either. Regardless of what your driving if your trained to the level to pass you should but nerves or just bad luck can affect you what ever your driving.
This is very true ^^^
I’ve always said that there’s an element of luck involved in passing a driving test and I don’t see any reason to alter my opinion.
Luck counts in any test, not just driving.
“I WOULD RATHER HAVE LUCKY GENERALS”
Napoleon Bonaparte
Foxstein.
He got his on grandad rights which is a full for W/D but prov for artic.
Peter Smythe:
newmercman:
Peter Smythe:
This subject has been discussed in great depth. It’s well documented that I support the method of getting the licence via W+D as it is, without the slightest shadow of doubt, easier. But you should then have between 2 and 4 hours on an artic as they are different animals.To learn on artic simply makes your life harder and I cant understand why anyone would want to do that.
Also bear in mind that, whilst most CE vehicles in the UK are artics, there is an increasing number of W+D out there. So doing it the way I suggest covers you no matter what you end up in.
Good luck with you training - regardless of which route you choose. Pete
Are you for real oh and
So you think it’s ok to send people out on the road with a licence, but no experience in a vehicle that you describe as harder to drive
You shouldn’t be allowed to teach people to push Corgi toys around their Mum’s kitchen
Just a little reminder to all the newbies, those that can, DO, those that can’t, TEACH
Yes, I am for real
No I don’t think it’s ok to send people out on the road with a licence, but no experience in a vehicle that I describe as harder to drive (but I have always said that artic training should follow W+D but you chose not to read that bit)
I was never any good with Corgi toys
Just a little reminder to all the newbies, that those that can do, AND teach. Having spent years tramping in artics around Europe - western and eastern, North Africa and USA, I have possibly skidded backwards in laybys more miles than some people who choose to post and make daft comments about my abilities
Suggest you read the post properly and get the facts straight before you start passing comment on my abilities.
Pete
I’m assuming that someone else is making daft comments about your abilities, because if you were referring to me in your comment about having done more miles skidding backwards into laybys, I could really pull your pants down and give you a public spanking on that one, so probably better for you if you didn’t go there, not a lot of point in entering a ■■■■■■■ competition if you need to sit down to pee 
I did read your post properly, from it I gather that you recommend people take a few hours in an artic after doing the test in a wagon and drag, that in itself isn’t a bad idea, but from what I read, you do the training in a wagon and drag first, I assume you spend quite a few hours doing it, then spend only between 2 or 4hrs in an artic. You state that the artic is harder to drive, so surely more time is needed to teach someone to drive one properly than is needed to teach them to drive a wagon and drag? Yet you do it the other way around 
Another reminder to the newbies, someone who sits there giving it the big’un about how many miles they’ve done, all the countries they’ve visited, all the lorries they’ve driven is probably suffering from something akin to little man syndrome, they can’t quite cut the mustard out with the big boys, so they sit in their puddle jumper (with drawbar trailer) and tell their war stories to impressionable young lads, who because they know no better are impressed by this
I have amassed a pretty decent amount of experience in this lorry driving lark, in many different configurations of vehicle and on a few different continents, I have IAM passes for all types of vehicle and was also pretty good at pushing my Dinky Toys around, but it doesn’t mean that I would be able to train anyone else to do it 
The most important statistic you need to know about your instructor is not how many miles he’s skidded backwards into a layby, but what percentage of his trainees pass their test first time 
Peter does not need to brag about his pass rate, his reputation for quality training is second to none,also his set up at mansfield is a very professional outfit that most trainers would kill to have.
porky:
Wag and drags are better for the trainer as of course its far cheaper that than the alternative. But easier and more likely to pass first time im not so sure.
The only way its better for the trainer is to get his pass rate up. Cheaper…? We do 2 day upgrade courses from C to CE using the same vehicle for £514 ( not an advert but I need to make my point) the same course would cost over £1200 if we used an artic becuase of the time it would take to get somebody ready. Same licence but half the cost. Is this not better for the candidate ? So Porky your not sure its easier to pass 1st time on a W&D, well I am sure and it is.
I could copy all Peter’s comments on this thread into my post but why. I have never read rubbish written by Peter, somebody we all know to have supreme knowledge of this game. I know where I would go for training if it was my time again.
newmercman:
I could really pull your pants down and give you a public spanking on that one, so probably better for you if you didn’t go there, not a lot of point in entering a ■■■■■■■ competition if you need to sit down to pee
I am not doubting you have given many a spanking to people more knowledgeable than you or even doubting you have pulled many pants down. Nor am I doubting you stand up to pee. What I would question is how many people you have ever trained to pass the test. Either C or CE or no doubt many double L’s in your day. (sorry Mr Expert, I might have to explain what they were)
newmercman:
Just a little reminder to all the newbies, those that can, DO, those that can’t, TEACH
In your own words you clearly can’t (teach) so leave it to us that DO unless you secretly want to teach. It wont take long to teach you to drive but I will have retired long before even I could get your attitude right. Even you were taught once upon a time. Do you remember how tricky that was.
LGVTrainer:
porky:
Wag and drags are better for the trainer as of course its far cheaper that than the alternative. But easier and more likely to pass first time im not so sure.The only way its better for the trainer is to get his pass rate up. Cheaper…? We do 2 day upgrade courses from C to CE using the same vehicle for £514 ( not an advert but I need to make my point) the same course would cost over £1200 if we used an artic becuase of the time it would take to get somebody ready. Same licence but half the cost. Is this not better for the candidate ? So Porky your not sure its easier to pass 1st time on a W&D, well I am sure and it is.
I could copy all Peter’s comments on this thread into my post but why. I have never read rubbish written by Peter, somebody we all know to have supreme knowledge of this game. I know where I would go for training if it was my time
Not really a fair comparison for price as your using different course durations. As for better for the candidate if as you stated you need so much more training for artic then this is going to have to be undertaken once the candidate has passed in the wag and drag. So theres no real saving for the candidate and they have the trouble of finding another decent training who has an artic. And well of course your sure it is you have a rather vested interest, would be handy to get some real statistics and see if its truly the case, maybe worth starting a poll on here.
As it says in my signature “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
Phil
porky:
LGVTrainer:
porky:
Wag and drags are better for the trainer as of course its far cheaper that than the alternative. But easier and more likely to pass first time im not so sure.The only way its better for the trainer is to get his pass rate up. Cheaper…? We do 2 day upgrade courses from C to CE using the same vehicle for £514 ( not an advert but I need to make my point) the same course would cost over £1200 if we used an artic becuase of the time it would take to get somebody ready. Same licence but half the cost. Is this not better for the candidate ? So Porky your not sure its easier to pass 1st time on a W&D, well I am sure and it is.
I could copy all Peter’s comments on this thread into my post but why. I have never read rubbish written by Peter, somebody we all know to have supreme knowledge of this game. I know where I would go for training if it was my time
Not really a fair comparison for price as your using different course durations. As for better for the candidate if as you stated you need so much more training for artic then this is going to have to be undertaken once the candidate has passed in the wag and drag. So theres no real saving for the candidate and they have the trouble of finding another decent training who has an artic. And well of course your sure it is you have a rather vested interest, would be handy to get some real statistics and see if its truly the case, maybe worth starting a poll on here.
As it says in my signature “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
Phil
On that basis every driver would be proficient in every skill involved in driving an LGV as soon as they get their pass certificate.
Whereas the DSA test gets you to a safe standard and gives you a foundation to learn the rest.
No one is saying that you need a whole weeks training to cross over from W&D to Artic. Just a few hours is usually enough. And surely you are better off taking the easier option to get the DSA pass and then do the crossover training without so much pressure.
Just a thought.
Whenever this subject comes up we always have a slanging match against trainers on W&D well personally i dont think you are less of a driver in W&D for class 1 you still have to have your wits about you and nosy in them mirrors all the time looking out for hazards etc , A W&D outfit follows round corners a bit better than artic you dont need such a wide turn but you still need to watch whilst turning , the training is still the same for reverse , personaly i still prefer artic dont know why but there you go , for passing class 1 the most important thing is a good trainer if I had had the trainer on artic that i did on W&D then i belive i would have passed first time my mock drives in artic i was picking up 2 to 3 minors each time it was the reverse that let me down but if my trainer had explained in a patient way i would not have had the problems i did ! i was a wreck at the end of each reversing exercise and that was down to trainer not veh , so my answer as stated in earlier post is get an assesment in both but make sure you are happy with the trainer thats the key , mabe im not an old hand at driving HGV but i have trained putting the hours in on both and the trainer is the one you really need to be happy with a good trainer will get you a pass on either and everyone knows that passing the test is only the start, you really start learning when driving for real and thats the same on artic or W&D
Jen x
The one thing which has stuck with me since I passed my car test twenty-whatever it was years ago, was the examiner telling me ‘This doesn’t mean you can drive, it just means that I consider you safe to learn on your own’. Its a rare day when you don’t learn a little bit more about driving, no matter how long since you passed your test. No matter what you passed your test in, you only really learn to drive when you get out on your own.
IMHO, YMMV
Gary
I think all the salient points have been covered very well. The picture below shows you what we have decided to offer our customers. It drives as good as it looks, is it too big?
Tockwith Training, providing quality driver instruction since 1971
Hope this picture loads up! If not, it’s a 40ft trailer behind a Volvo FH13
Tockwith Training, providing quality driver instruction since 1971
Great bit of kit without a shadow of doubt. As for whether or not it’s too big, the jury will be out for ever! I’m guessing it runs at 16.25 - 16.50 metres. Our “puddle jumpers” run at 15.5 metres so they are a fair representation as far as length goes. I used to operate a Volvo FM12 W+D @ 18.75 metres. I thought it was wonderful, some trainees loved it, some were intimidated by it, some examiners were clearly worried by it. There is, as you know, no real answer for as long as the MTV rules exist in their present form.
Just put down Commercial Motor having scoured the pages for a nice unit!! Nothing would please me more - but I need people to actually book artic in preference to W+D and, to date, that hasn’t been the case.
Pete
Tockwith Training:
Hope this picture loads up! If not, it’s a 40ft trailer behind a Volvo FH13Tockwith Training, providing quality driver instruction since 1971
I’d like to see that combo on test at Steeton, that’d throw some of the test routes right out of the window.
Tockwith Training:
Hope this picture loads up! If not, it’s a 40ft trailer behind a Volvo FH13Tockwith Training, providing quality driver instruction since 1971
Very nice indeed.
dar1976:
No one is saying that you need a whole weeks training to cross over from W&D to Artic. Just a few hours is usually enough. And surely you are better off taking the easier option to get the DSA pass and then do the crossover training without so much pressure.Just a thought.
If there is only a few hours needed does rather call in to question lgvtrainers figers of only ~£500 for wag and drag but £1200 for artic. As for easier did you truely find the artic considerably harder to drive than the wag and drag?
Peter Smythe:
Just put down Commercial Motor having scoured the pages for a nice unit!! Nothing would please me more - but I need people to actually book artic in preference to W+D and, to date, that hasn’t been the case.Pete
Well why would they when they come on here and see comments like this from a respected member:
Peter Smythe:
To learn on artic simply makes your life harder and I cant understand why anyone would want to do that.
Phil
… As for easier did you truely find the artic considerably harder to drive than the wag and drag?
No.
HTH
dar1976:
… As for easier did you truely find the artic considerably harder to drive than the wag and drag?
No.
HTH
Well there it is from some one whos tried both.
Phil