VALKYRIE:
From Page 8. QUOTE:-
Gingerfold » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:58 pm
Cav551 wrote:
Ramone wrote:
So who was the flagship bus manufacturer when we had a say in things.Who made the best all round buses in Britain?
That will possibly end up being biased upon regional loyalties. North West Leyland, Midlands Guy or Daimler, South East AEC, South Dennis, West Bristol, North East more difficult, Scotland Albion. If you count volume only, then it’s a toss up between Leyland Motors and AEC both of whom made their own in-house bodies. Export sales would add Guy. All of that is only concentrating on double deckers, the sheer volume of Bedford coaches and single deckers puts them in the picture.
If you were to ask the various bus companies and Corporations, then some were territorial, Salford and Manchester favouring Crossley from Gorton, others switching allegiance quite regularly.
In the final analysis it probably come down to a straight choice between the perceived ‘southern sophisticate’ AEC and Leyland Motors’ advertising spiel ‘the builder of London’s Buses’.
Gingerfold replied:-
The PSV market can be classified in identical manner to the lorry market, that is premium builders and volume producers. Firmly in the first category are Leyland and AEC, the dominant two, who also built large quantities of chassis. Also in the premium category come Daimler, Bristol, Crossley, Dennis, and Guy, but whose build numbers were far smaller than Leyland and AEC. The volume producers were Bedford and Ford. Atkinson and Foden as we have seen also dabbled in PSV production, as did Seddon. The genesis of the dominant two was completely different. Leyland evolved from steam waggons to IC powered lorries to PSVs, albeit in a few years. AEC started as a bus builder for London General Omnibus Co. and went on to produce lorries, prompted by the demands of the War Office in WW1. UNQUOTE.
From page 8:-
QUOTE:-
240 Gardner » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:55 am
ERF-NGC-European wrote:
Ramone wrote:
So who was the flagship bus manufacturer when we had a say in things.Who made the best all round buses in Britain?
The only kind of all-round bus you could get was one that was bodied by the chassis and engine manufacturer - ie vertically integrated. Leyland certainly fell into this category after the war when it produced the PD1 with in-house bodywork and the 0.600 engine that would power double-deckers for the next 20+ plus years.
I would have thought that Leyland and AEC were jointly the best bus manufacturers in Britain for many years.
Robert
240 Gardner replied:-
A little note in my anorak pocket tells me that it was the PD2 which had the O.600 engine - the PD1 had the pre-war E181 engine. The O,600 also went on to power the PD3 and the PRD1 Atlantean, not to mention the Royal Tiger and the Leopard in horizontal form
And yes, Leyland produced the ‘Farington’ bodywork until 1954, but AEC also had Park Royal and C H Roe coachbuilders.UNQUOTE.
TruckNetUK. Old Time Lorries. BUSES,MOTORCOACHES & LORRIES . Page 9. VALKYRIE .Thursday,27th September,2018 .
Pages 2-8
Details of some of the motor vehicles from pages 2-8 
But just before I start this post with the last photograph of the Gingerfold photograph batch,here is list of the Post-War British Motorcoach,Bus and Trolleybus Manufacturing Industry . I’m a bit out of date with the latest goings-on of what is left of this
industry,which is up against European,Scandinavian,Chinese,Turkish,etc,manufacturers,but I’ll get my research together! 
British - United Kingdom Bus,Motorcoach And Trolleybus Manufacturers From 1945 To The Present - 2018.
KEY: M = Mass Producer. P = Premium Producer. S = Small Producer. T = Trolleybus Manufacturer.
1.ACE = Advanced Chassis Engineering*. S.
2.AEC = Associated Equipment Company. P.
3.Ailsa. P.
4.Albion. P.
5.Alexander. S.
6.Alexander Dennis. P.
7.Atkinson. P.
8.Austin. M.
9.BMC = British Motor Corporation. M.
10.BMMO = Birmingham Midland Motor Omnibus - Midland Red. P.
11.Beadle. P.
12.Bedford. M.
13.Bristol. P.
14.BUT =British United Traction. T.
15.Cannon. S.
16.Commer. M.
17.Crossley. P. T.
18.CVE =City Vehicle Engineering. S.
19.Daimler. P. T.
20.Dennis. P. T.
21.Dodge. M.
22.Douglas. S.
23.Duple. P.
24.ERF =Edwin Richard Foden**. P.
25.Foden. P.
26.Ford. M.
27.Forson. M.
28.Freight Rover. M.
29.GNR-Gardner =Great Northern Railway-Gardner. S.
30.Guy. P. T.
31.Harrington. S.
32.Jensen. S.
33.Karrier. M. T.
34.KIRN - Kirn . S.
35.Leyland. P.
36.LDV =Leyland DAF Vans. M.
37.Leyland National. P.
38.Leyland Redline. M.
39.Marshall. S.
40.Maudslay. P.
41.MCW =Metro - Metrepolitan Cammell Weymann. P.
42.Morris-Commercial. M.
43.Moulton. S.
44.Northern General Transport =NGT. S.
45.Omnicoach. S.
46.Optare. P.
47.Plaxton. P.
48.Quest 80. S.
49.Renault. M.
50.Rowe. S.
51.Rutland. S.
52.SMT =Scottish Motor Traction. S.
53.Saunders-Roe. S.
54.Seddon. P.
55.Sentinel. P.
56.Shelvoke & Drewry. S.
57.Sunbeam. T.
58.Talbot. M.
59.Thames. M.
60.Thornycroft. P.
61.Tilling-Stevens - TSM =Tilling Stevens Motors. P.
62.Transbus International. P.
63.Trojan. M.
64.Volvo. P.
65.Vulcan. M.
66.Ward. S.
67.Wright. P.
*ACE - Advanced Chassis Engineering. The marque name was originally going to be AEC - Albion Equipment Company ! 
,Leyland objected,so the ACE marque was concocted
**ERF.The famous lorry manufacturer also made motorcoaches and buses for sale abroad - in fact the vast majority if not all of these ERF motorcoaches and buses were built abroad.
There were no less than 182 marques of motorcoach,bus and trolleybus on the British public passenger road vehicle market up to 1945…these marques were not on the market all at the same time! :the majority of them came and went during the first three decades of the 20th Century.By the time of the 1930s things had settled down in the market and makes such as Leyland, AEC, Bedford, Gilford, Daimler, Crossley, Guy, Bristol, Commer, Ford and Albion dominated sales,while other marques such as Tilling-Stevens-TSM, Maudslay, Karrier, Thornycroft, Sunbeam were also-rans and,with the exception of Maudslay,had reached their sales peaks during the 1920s - early 1930s.
As far as I am able to ascertain 66 British marques of motorcoach,bus and trolleybus have been on the British public passenger road vehicle market since 1945 right up to the present. My list numbers 67,but,as far as I know,ERF did not build any buses and motorcoaches for it’s home market. ERF is included for the sake of completeness
Britain also had a healthy number of motor body builders which built the bodies for motorcoaches,buses and trolleybuses - some also built bodies for trams,railway carriages,cabs for lorries and so on. And some firms built high quality bodies for luxury motorcars such as Bentley, Daimler, Rolls-Royce, Hispano-Suiza, Alvis, Delage, Delahaye, Packard, Minerva, Lagonda, Cadillac, etc
Alas! 
The following firms are no longer with us :-
1.ACB = Associated Coach Builders.
2.Beadle.
3.Beccols.
4.Bellhouse Hartwell.
5.BMMO = Birmingham Midland Motor Omnibus - Midland Red.
6.Brush.
7.Burlingham.
8.Carlyle.
9.Craven.
10.Crossley. Stopped building motorcoach,bus and trolleybus chassis but continued building bodywork,as part of AEC.
11.Duple.
12.ECW = Eastern Coach Works.
13.East Lancs = East Lancashire Coachbuilders.
14.English Electric.
15.Gurney Nutting.
16.Harrington.
17.Heaver.
18.Lawton.
19.Leyland.Produced motorcoach & bus bodies in to 1954. Re-started in 1971 re integral Leyland National.
20.Longford.
21.Longwell Green.
22.Marshall.
23.Massey.
24.Metalcraft.
25.MCW = Metro - Metropolitan Cammell Weymann.
26.Northern Coachbuilders.
27.Northern Counties = Northern Counties Motor Engineering.
28.Park Royal.Part of AEC.
29.Reeve Burgess.
30.Charles Roberts.
31.Chas H.Roe = Charles Henry Roe.Part of AEC.
32.Santus.
33.Saunders Roe.
34.Scottish Aviation.
35.Short Brothers.
36.Strachans.
37.Thurgood.
38.Trans United.
39.UVG = Universal Vehicles Group.
40.Wadham Stringer.
41.Waveney.
42.Weymann.
43.Whitson.
44.Willowbrook.
45.Windover.
46.Wycombe.
47.Yeates.
NOTE: The above list is by no means exhaustive,but I think all of the major British defunct
motor body builders for motorcoaches,buses,trams and trolleybuses are listed.
Most of these firms had disappeared by 1989. Northern Counties closed on Wednesday,26th January,2005,East Lancs became part of Optare in 2008,production of East Lancs bodies ceased in 2011 and it’s Blackburn factory was closed in 2012.
From the mid 1960s and into the early 1970s the Leyland group,and after it became British Leyland, had a monopoly of the British PSV market,and also had an healthy export trade. But because of Leyland mismanagement,misguided politicians,wrong model policies,misguided phasing out of marques,Truck & Bus Division money unfairly spent on trying to save the loss-making volume car division,and other problems - all these problems affected the lorry manufacturering side as well - British Leyland went in to terminal decline losing major market shares in the bus,motorcoach,lorry and motorcar markets…not to mention export markets! British Leyland had thrown it all away!
The British government sold the state-owned British Leyland off in bits and pieces:the Leyland Bus part became independent in 1986 and was bought by Volvo Bus in 1988;nearly all of the associated companies of the Leyland group - AEC, Guy, Bristol, Scammell, Daimler, Thornycroft, ECW, C.H.Roe, Park Royal,etc, had been closed by then 
Alvis, SCG - Self-Changing-Gears, Leyland Vehicles, Rover, Land Rover, Jaguar, Albion,etc survived. Leyland Vehicles became part of DAF in 1987. The Leyland marque name died two deaths: DAF dropped it in 2000 and Volvo dropped it in 1993. The fall and decline of the Leyland group/British Leyland was a tragi-comedy and a monumental calamity for a large core-part of the British Motor Industry! It is also a scandal!
And so out of 67 post-war British motorcoach,bus and trolleybus manufacturers that have been
active since 1945,the British - United Kingdom public passenger road vehicle manufacturing
industry is a vast shadow of it’s former self because only 6 survive:-
British - United Kingdom Bus And Motorcoach - Motor Coach Manufacturers 2018.
1.Alexander Dennis.
2.Cannon.
3.Optare.
4.Plaxton*.
5.Volvo**.
6.Wright.
*Plaxton is the only surviving British manufacturer of full-size motorcoach bodies.
**Volvo achieved British status because it built it’s own motorcoach and bus chassis in the United Kingdom.
The Imported Foreign Motorcoach And Bus Chassis And Body Manufacturers Currently On
The British Bus And Motorcoach - Motor Coach Market 2018.
1.Ayats. Spain.
2.BCI = Bus & Coach International. Australia.
3.Beulas. Spain.
4.BYD = Build Your Dreams. China.
5.Caetano. Portugal.
6.Erduman. Turkey.
7.Higer. China.
8.IM = Irmaos Mota. Portugal.
9.Indcar. Spain.
10.Irizar. Spain.
11.Jonckheere. Belgium.
12.King Long. China.
13.MAN. Germany.
14.MCV = Manufacturing Commercial Vehicles. Egypt.
15.Mercedes-Benz. Germany.
16.MOBIpeople. Portugal.
17.Neoplan. Germany.
18.Scania. Sweden.
19.Setra. Germany.
20.Sunsundegui. Spain.
21.Temsa. Turkey.
22.Unvi. Spain.
23.Van Hool. Belgium.
24.VDL = Van Der Leegte. Netherlands.
25.Volvo. Sweden & Britain-UK.
26.Yutong. China.
And that is the current list of foreign imported motorcoach and bus marques available on the British - United Kingdom bus and motorcoach - motor coach market in 2018.
This list is lightyears away from the traditional British motorcoach and bus building
industry of yesteryear,when AEC and Park Royal built London’s buses - not the
Egyptian MCV company!!
AEC - Builders Of London’s Buses - that’s AEC’s famous slogan
So the listed six remaining British motorcoach and bus manufacturers currently compete
- and in some cases co-operate - with the above foreign bus and motorcoach builders.
Because of the somewhat capricious nature of the public passenger road vehicle market
even some foreign manufacturers have come and gone from the British market,such as:-
1.Ajokki - Delta Plan. Finland.
2.Berkhof. Netherlands.
3.Blue Bird. United States of America.
4.BMC = British Motor Corporation,Turkey. Orginally importer of British BMC’s.
5.Bova. Netherlands.
6.Carrosserie Lorraine. France.
7.DAF = Van Doorne’s Automobielfabriek. Netherlands.
8.Designline. New Zealand.
9.Drogmoller. Germany.
10.Ensign Charisma-FAP FAMOS = Fabrika Automobila Priboj FAMOS. Serbia-Yugoslavia.
11.EOS =Eos is, in Greek mythology,the Titan Goddess of The Dawn. Belgium.Part of Van Hool.
12.Ikarus. Hungary.
13.Iveco - IVECO = Industrial Vehicles Corporation. Italy & Great Britain - UK.
14.LAG = Lambert Et Arnold Geusens. Belgium. Taken over by Van Hool. EOS replaced LAG name.
15.Marcopolo. Portugal.
16.Noge. Spain.
17.Padane. Italy.
18.Renault. France & Great Britain-UK
19.Sitcar. Italy.
20.Smit. Netherlands.
21.Spartan. United States of America.
22.TAZ Dubrava TAZ = Tvornica Autobusa Zagreb. Yugoslavia & Croatia.
23.Tecnobus. Italy.
24.Toyota. Japan & Great Britain - UK.
25.UTIC = Uniao De Transportadores Para Importacao E Comercio. Portugal.
26.Unicar. Spain.
27.Van Rooijen. Netherlands.
While Berkhof, Bova, DAF and Jonckheere are now part of the VDL Group,only the
Jonckheere and VDL marque names are currently in use.
Since 1968 there have been no less than 53 marques (they are listed above - count them all )
known to me of imported foreign bus and motorcoach chassis and body makers,from many unsuprising - and some unexpected - parts of the world.
The British bus and motorcoach market has become a free-for-all for the importers,greatly
helped by the tragic-comic decline of British Leyland,it’s mis-management,it’s iniquitous phasing
out of the AEC, Albion, Bristol, Daimler, ECW, Guy, Park Royal and Chas.H.Roe marques 
-
this was THE major part of the British motorcoach and bus industry!! - and other terrible and seriously wrong follies of Leyland mis-management!!
I’m all for free commercial enterprise and competition,but for Leyland to sabotage successful
companies of it’s own is absolutely wrong and criminal!! If this had not happened,AEC ,Bristol ,Daimler ,Park Royal ,et al - plus the AEC, Scammell,etc,lorry side - would probably still be in business - and with the resultant far less foreign competition!!
And here’s another thing:We live in a crazy,mixed-up,cockeyed,mad,unfair,un-equal
and iniquitous world…you only have to witness the fall and end of the British Motor
Industry to realise this . We always thought that AEC , Morris , Foden , Rover , Leyland ,
Scammell , Bristol,et al would always be here. But they are not!
And yet,after more than one-hundred years,Mercedes-Benz,is still here for the Germans,
Volvo and Scania are still here for the Swedes,Toyota is still here for the Japanese,Mack,
Kenworth,Buick,Cadillac,Lincoln,Chevrolet,Ford et al are still here for the Americans…
I could mention other surviving marques from their respective home countries…
it’s all quite poignant…
The employers and employees of the British bus and motorcoach manufacturing and operating industries of 1950 would be totally aghast and astonished as they surveyed the British bus and motorcoach world of 2018…it would be like being on another planet…so alien…so
infuriating that nearly all of the British bus and motorcoach chassis and bodybuilders had gone out of business…a very sad state of affairs
…so disappointed and mad with British management and the politicians and the lack of British pride and prestige
…and where the hell are all the famous motorcoach and bus operators with their colourful liveries,such as Yorkshire Traction,
Ribble,Southdown,Sheffield Transport,East Kent,Sheffield United Tours,London Transport,East Yorkshire,et al ? 
…the present-day manufacturers certainly produce superb buses and motorcoaches,BUT at least a great deal of them should be built by AEC ,Bristol, Daimler,
Guy, Leyland, Harrington, Duple,etc
I hope all of these facts - lists and what I’ve written and posted in this post - are interesting.
1.AEC Reliance/Plaxton Panorama Mk2 C51F Motorcoach,Chassis No.4MU3RA4052,Body No.622142, VBW 763,Oxford,May 1962,A.G. & K.M.Spiers Ltd, Henley.Gingerfold.1#
9
2.Bedford SB8,Leyland O.350 Diesel Oil-Engined/Yeates Europa C41F Motorcoach,Chassis No.58318,Body No.644, DJP 20,Wigan,December 1957,Stringfellow Bros Ltd,Wigan.Ray Smyth.1#
8
3.Leyland Tiger PS1/1/Pantechnicon Van,Chassis No.481203,LLNo.2075, JP 6968,Wigan,5-1948,Stringfellow Bros Ltd,Wigan.New as Santus C33F Motorcoach with Silver Queen -Stringfellows.Ray Smyth.1#
7
4.The other preserved Leyland Tiger Cub/Harrington Motorcoach,MMR 553,Silver Star,No.26
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2/Harrington C41C Motorcoach,Chassis No.553503,Body No.1650, MMR 553,Wiltshire,July 1955,Silver Star,No.26,Porton Down.Preserved by David Dawes,WY.MarkKirk85.1
6
QUOTE:- Ray Smyth » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:13 pm,Page 5.
Liverpool Corporation Transport Department had several of these Bedford artic mobile canteens.
They all had JXC and single number reg plates, were they ex London Transport ? or perhaps they
were ex London Airport like someone suggested many years ago. This one is seen at Old Haymarket
in the centre of Liverpool, parked on the tramlines, along with a Crosville Bristol Lodekka, and a
Bedford van. The trams finished running in September 1957. The locations of some of the other
mobile canteens were Lower Lane/East Lancashire Road, (Not far from Arthurs Café), Seaforth
Dock, and Speke Boulevard, near to where the Ford factory was built. To the immediate right of
the picture is the entrance to the original Mersey Tunnel. The 2 buses on the right are a Ribble
Leyland PD2, and a Liverpool Corporation bus, probably a Leyland. Regards, Ray Smyth.UNQUOTE.
One of ten such mobile canteens used by London Transport
5.Bedford OSS 4x2-2,Spurling Canteen-Bodied,Articulated Mobile Refreshment Vehicle,Chassis No.OSS74343,Body No.9415, JXC 2,London,1948,Preserved London Transport 702B,MC3.LondonBusMuseum.Com.1#
5
6.Leyland Beaver TSC8,Flat-Bodied,4x2 Lorry,AXD 968,London,1934,ex-Hovis Ltd,London.Bedford O Lorry.Scammell Pioneer TRMU,30.RML - CAV551.1#
4
7.ERF 66CU335/Busaf, 6x2-Newey Trailing Axle, Single Decker Bus, SAS MT 17810, South African Railways. ■■■■■■■ HNE335 Diesel Engine, Fuller 9-Speed Gearbox. John Ward.1#
3
From page 7.
8.Leyland Titanic TT1,1938 Harrington C37F,6x4,Motorcoach,Chassis No.2289, AGH 150,London,3-1933,new to City C.C.,as Dodson H34,20RO DD,TS2,then London Transport,TC2,1934,sold 1938,re-bodied.Letch’s.OilTreader.1#
2
The above magnificent Leyland Titanic,Harrington 6x4 Motorcoach,AGH 150,had a colourful history :-
Built for the famous City Coach Company as a Dodson double decker bus,No.TS2 - two others were bought AGH 149 and AGH 151,TS1 - TS3,1933.
All three passed on to London Transport in 1934,Nos TC1-3,their original diesel-oil engines were exchanged for petrol engines in November 1935.
All three sold to Lancashire Motor Traders,Salford,in May 1938 and were re-bodied as Harrington single decker motorcoaches and from then on each had different operator histories.
AGH 150 itself had seven operators during it’s career as a motorcoach: it’s final one was A.E Letch,Sible Hedingham,from February 1948 to March
1952 and was unfortunately scrapped in August 1952 - it ought to have been preserved!
From page 8.
9.Leyland Gnu TEC2/Duple FC39C,6x2 Twin Steer Chinese Six,Motorcoach,Chassis No.302995,Body No.6710,Series 2, HVW 217,Essex,August 1939,City Coach Company,No.G6. Beautiful Fact Pinterest.1#
1
10.Karrier Road-Railer Road-Rail/Craven, Single Decker Motorcoach,UR 7924,Hertford,1932,of the LMSR and one of it’s Midland Railway,Johnson Designed,Fowler Re-Built,4-4-0 Steam Railway Locomotives,LMSR,No.556. RailwayMagazine.1#
0
VALKYRIE
Absolutely fascinating and absorbing reading. Thanks a bundle.
Driving the porcelain bus! 
![BlackpoolRd1960[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/business20/uploads/trucknetuk/original/3X/7/a/7aaaa26fe6de1c40ececa3bc025057634bfb26d5.jpeg)
Robert