geebee45:
Just a thought.The ‘Operator’ of the vehicle is the employer of the driver, unless the driver is an ‘owner driver.’ If you go ‘self-employed’ even via a ltd co, you may well find that legally you (your company) needs to hold the O-licence. If you are running the vehicle on the (ex)bosses O-licence that could open a very large can of worms.
Funny that, my question about Peter Cook went unanswered and I was thinking the same thing 
geebee45:
Just a thought.The ‘Operator’ of the vehicle is the employer of the driver, unless the driver is an ‘owner driver.’ If you go ‘self-employed’ even via a ltd co, you may well find that legally you (your company) needs to hold the O-licence. If you are running the vehicle on the (ex)bosses O-licence that could open a very large can of worms.
How does that work with agencies then? By becoming a self employed driver you are effectively starting a one-man agency and I don’t know of many agencies with O-Licences.
Paul
Wow, where to start? So much BS spouted in this thread, no doubt a lot of by those who have never even been s/e more by those who have been hoodwinked into the dubious merits (and costs!) of going down the Ltd. co. route, no doubt just to please other people. Even Geebee is wrong, which is rare.
DO read Davey Drivers post, one of the most sensible here.
I can, to a degree, understand the Ltd co. bit if you want to work for an agency that insists on it, although they shouldn’t as a legitimately s/e person can legally work for them, just that the agencies too have been filled with BS that all drivers must be Ltd. co. It all came about by drivers claiming to be s/e, getting an improved rate, then failing to pay their income tax & NI which they were responsible for. HMRC then came after the agencies for the shortfall.
Being voluntarily registered for VAT is only any good if you are claiming payments back from HMRC at the end of the quarter. Very unlikely in the case of a s/e driver. As has been said, you wouldn’t be required to register unless your turnover is well over a grand a week.
If you aren’t claiming back you are nothing but an unpaid tax collector with returns to reckon up, fill in & send off every 3 months. Its an absolute headache. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me. I’ve been VAT registered twice, once voluntarily because it worked in my favour & again when I had my own tractor unit.
I have vowed that if I am ever VAT registered again. I will NOT do my own book keeping & VAT returns.
You can still claim your legitimate business expenses such as work clothes, laundry, stationary, moblie, mileage, PPE, unreceipted lunches, etc. etc. against income tax
liability.
If you bought a van & used it solely for work, you could also claim its costs.
Conor says the bosses employment costs would drop 25% Really? The hourly rate the drivers charge him on a s/e basis would be at least £2 - 3 more than they were getting on PAYE. So would it really drop that much?
BTW, s/e class 2 NI is quite cheap at around £11 a month.
As has ben said, HMRC will not be happy if a s/e driver only has one employer & a permanent place of work. They see it as a “get out” … exactly what your boss is trying to do.
Why the heck would a s/e driver need GIT insurance■■? That’s 100% down to the carrier.
Pierre watch D&B! Order a report at a given price, then just before you do the final mouse click it has mysteriously almost doubled in price & is very difficult to spot.
They recently got a mouhtfull from me about this on their live help. When pointed out & asked how many people may have got caught out with it, there was no answer!
Beware D&B online services!
Someone said if you are a Ltd co. & it goes pear shaped big time you can just walk away if the co. has no assets & they can’t come after your personal assets.
I think you’ll find that in serious cases it is not as simple as that!
OP, speak to ACAS & the CAB, find out your rights & don’t be pushed around.
driveroneuk well said as stated to much b/s posted on this subject so far!!!
is there owt else to say?.. think thats nailed it down
Driveroneuk:
Wow, where to start? So much BS spouted in this thread, no doubt a lot of by those who have never even been s/e more by those who have been hoodwinked into the dubious merits (and costs!) of going down the Ltd. co. route, no doubt just to please other people. Even Geebee is wrong, which is rare.
I am interested in your take on the situation, especially about Geebee being wrong or posting incorrect information.
David Lowe has his own take in a little segment about employment law:
A number of instances have arisen in transport where the self-employed status of owner drivers has been questioned by HMRC. (mainly because they work for only one firm). In such cases where HMRC have ruled that owner driver agreements are merely employment contracts, the employer becomes liable for back tax and National Insurance contributions for it’s sub-contractors.
This is especially so where the owner-driver works under the operators licence of the employing company - and if he is genuinely self employed, then in any event, this practice is illegal under O licence legislation
Next 
I also believe that covers Paul Reptons question about agency drivers, they are advertising themselves as an employment agency and drawing up a simplified contract between client and clientele.
I was going to say I didnt think a SE driver could work for the same firm for more than 12 weeks at a time or something like that. 
johno1:
I was going to say I didnt think a SE driver could work for the same firm for more than 12 weeks at a time or something like that.
I’m working with a chap that’s been self employed for 18 months, he’s worked for the same agency, driving for the same company.
Wheel Nut:
A number of instances have arisen in transport where the self-employed status of owner drivers has been questioned by HMRC. (mainly because they work for only one firm). In such cases where HMRC have ruled that owner driver agreements are merely employment contracts, the employer becomes liable for back tax and National Insurance contributions for it’s sub-contractors.
This is especially so where the owner-driver works under the operators licence of the employing company - and if he is genuinely self employed, then in any event, this practice is illegal under O licence legislation
Agree 100% but we aren’t talking about owner driver’s in this thread so lets stick with the relevant stuff.
Driveroneuk:
Why the heck would a s/e driver want GIT insurance.
I never said they should have it, I was demonstrating the high cost for very little cover.
Driveroneuk:
Pierre watch D&B! Order a report at a given price, then just before you do the final mouse click it has mysteriously almost doubled in price & is very difficult to spot.
They recently got a mouhtfull from me about this on their live help. When pointed out & asked how many people may have got caught out without it, there was no answer!
Beware D&B online services!.
I’ve not really had to use them YET. only their free alert service
But generally speaking I was responding to the point about the need for credit control
Driveroneuk:
Someone said if you are a Ltd co. & it goes pear shaped big time you can just walk away if the co. has no assets & they can’t come after your personal assets.
I think you’ll find that in serious cases it is not as simple as that!.
I know it doesn’t absolve the company director(s) from their responsibilities. Especially if there is any form of criminal act or neglegence. But I was making the point that a sole trader may have more to loose
Driveroneuk:
OP, speak to ACAS & the CAB, find out your rights & don’t be pushed around.
Agreed
alix776:
Have a look at the flat rate scheme Pierre you should make some money out of it
Jan 31st is looming, so I`ll take a look, and speak to the accountant to see if my situation could be improved
I know that there isn’t a perfect PAYE/ SE Ltd Co solution, and theres not one that fits all.
As everyones situation is different. Those that dont keep their eye on the ball and deligate book keeping & accounting responsibilities to someone else. Or Spend the monies that are meant to be held back to pay the taxman are the foolsIMO. a bit like the O/O who can`t be bothered to go though the CPC exams so they can get an O licence
To be self employed a driver has to fulfill some conditions, or HMRC will deem him employed.
1.Substitution - can you or are you obliged to send a substitute driver if you aren’t available?
2.Control - Can he choose what work he does or does he just do what he is told?
3.Financial Risk - Does he have significant money invested (more than just tools etc)
This is just a brief outline and you should go to HMRC.gov for the full sp. They are quite strict on this as I have just found out to my cost - fortunately I am over 65 so NI didn’t apply.
An agency driver would work (in theory at least) for several companies and (in theory again) he is free to accept or refuse work. If you only work (as I did) for one firm then you are on dodgy ground. I have no idea how all this would apply to someone who is a Ltd Company.
Some companies (notably ready mixed concrete) lease the truck to the driver - this fulfills 2 of the three rules so HMRC are happy.
hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf
From the horse’s mouth… 
I really don’t know why we see so much BS spouted about this sort of thing when it is so much easier to look for the official kosher source. 
You can thank me later. 
You’re Welcome!