But in the case of a truck running off the road into a motorway bridge pillar the driver would have already been trained not to do that (hopefully) during the training to actually drive the thing.They don’t just throw a truck at anyone since the HGV licencing came into effect.A new driver with a licence is (should be) just as competent to drive it as anyone else assuming that new driver passed the LGV test.However it would be much better if that driver was also trained before holding the LGV licence in all the other issues concerned with driving a truck in the years before an LGV can legally be driven on the road.If the driver left school at 16 that gives at least 2 to 5 years to learn most of what’s needed before even driving the truck on the road.However in my experience try tellling that to the school careers advisors and the industry as a whole.How many 16 year olds actually get the opportunity in this industry to learn loading,the CPC,and yard shunting all before getting the on road driver training?..But as for driving a truck into a motorway bridge pillar that’s more likely to be caused by knackered drivers new or old trying to get the job done at 90 kmh
Trained in a classroom for 26 weeks and then sent for their test, “Well done son you’ve passed your test, thanks for the money that’ll go nicely toward a deposit on my new S Class Merc…goodbye!”…next please!" The schools will have nothing to do with it, but I will. And, they will be trained not to drive when they are knackered, ‘Tiredness Can Kill’.
That does’nt sound like the correct procedure for new drivers for getting an LGV C+E licence to me.First there’s the theory instruction and test then there’s the driving instruction on a category C wagon and then the test before having to do it all again on a C+E wagon.But there is’nt much point in doing any of that if it’s not considered good enough for a driver to then go out and use that new licence to get a job.I did 15 years of 600kms+ per night night trunk runs so I know that tiredness can kill but those limiters set at 90 kmh are just about the biggest cause of tiredness that I know of in the real world but telling drivers to not drive when they’re tired is just trying to fix the symptoms not the cause and it’s a certainty that at some point in their career they’ll need to decide between the catch 22 of getting the job done or driving when they’re feeling a bit knackered but the old pre limiter 60 mph limit days were a lot better when it came to not being knackered enough to drive into something as the modern day traffic reports often seem to show.
To a degree I agree with the post from carryfast. It is good, helpful and useful feedback.
As for the one after it by gogsy!! Comments like that and the previous one by the same individual do none of us any good whatsoever. We need CONTSRUCTIVE criticism and good intelligent dialogue, not constant griping. The more I look into this the more I can see the young buck drivers with just a few years under thier belt are the ones who want to do all the griping. Perhaps when these individuals begin to comment when they have 20 or 30 years experience they may be taken seriously. Until that time I shall just give the comments the contempt they deserve.
Thanks Carryfast for keeping the discussion on track.
but whats the point in being positive when you just get screwed about or nobody will let you near a truck.
i had solid work on artics till xmas and had to take a day off to goto a funeral…guess who aint driving the truck anymore? this is what {zb} me off, im not even given a chance
I think Rog hit on the reality a few posts back, there are too many theory exams, form filling and computerised tests, most of the teenage kids who are let lose in a one litre Corsa learn to drive on a Playstation or Nintendo and then it comes as a great shock when they hit a tree and kill 3 or 4 of their mates.
There are some good drivers, there are many bad drivers, there have always been some bad drivers and some good drivers. The post about the daily mayhem where another truck has hit a motorway bridge pillar makes me question the early training, the car years, the after school / work jaunt with one of your parents,
“If you drive like that again you are not getting a car from us” lecture.
Look at the driving standards in a supermarket car park, then remember that those same drivers have just picked their kids up from school and driven on busy public roads to get there, some of them do not even deserve a cycling proficiency badge.
However I think Williemac’s thread was more about giving new drivers the experience of an older hand before expecting them to “hit the road” running.
Correct Wheelnut !! It was badly worded but after having long discussions with insurance companies regarding some in depth training, it seems they are not interested either, until i mentioned the following
Young plant fitters with LGV can drive £1 million pound cranes
Young Farmers at 16 can drive combines and fast tracks on “L” plates
How much damage can they do on their cheap policies ? insurance companies reply was, they have had plenty experience at a young age therefor they are more competent.
I would say it depends on the type of work involved how much on the job training is needed. If it is just up and down the motorway trunking you dont need a lot of guidance but something like a car transporter is going to require a fair bit of on the job training. If you start droping clangers with one of them i would imagine it could work out expensive.
If you go right back to the oringinal statement which kicked off this dicussion, your qustion will be answered.
That is precisely the point which is trying to be made.
kr79:
I would say it depends on the type of work involved how much on the job training is needed. If it is just up and down the motorway trunking you dont need a lot of guidance but something like a car transporter is going to require a fair bit of on the job training. If you start droping clangers with one of them i would imagine it could work out expensive.
But how many times have you picked up a strange trailer, a different type of curtain to fasten or been sent for an unfamiliar load when you would have normally run home empty, the experience you have gained in the yard would help here I think.
A couple of months spent with an older or more experienced hand may teach you that there other quicker routes than using the motorway or when the junction is closed or that there are still some decent places to park and not an industrial park or a layby
Wheel Nut:
I think Rog hit on the reality a few posts back, there are too many theory exams, form filling and computerised tests, most of the teenage kids who are let lose in a one litre Corsa learn to drive on a Playstation or Nintendo and then it comes as a great shock when they hit a tree and kill 3 or 4 of their mates.
There are some good drivers, there are many bad drivers, there have always been some bad drivers and some good drivers. The post about the daily mayhem where another truck has hit a motorway bridge pillar makes me question the early training, the car years, the after school / work jaunt with one of your parents,
“If you drive like that again you are not getting a car from us” lecture.
Look at the driving standards in a supermarket car park, then remember that those same drivers have just picked their kids up from school and driven on busy public roads to get there, some of them do not even deserve a cycling proficiency badge.
However I think Williemac’s thread was more about giving new drivers the experience of an older hand before expecting them to “hit the road” running.
But it’s far more likely that they’ll kill themselves and/or 3 or 4 of their mates if they hit something with a Corsa than the type of bigger heavier cars which many of us were driving as new teenaged drivers in the 1970’s.But if they can drive now at 17 what’s the difference? as that’s always been the same age to start driving for years and we all managed to tell the difference between toys and the real thing so why should’nt that be the case today? and in those days we bought our own cars and did’nt need parents to buy them for us but the insurance issue was almost as bad then as it is now .With new drivers it’s a case of trust them to learn how to do the job and you’re not going to make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
I for sure wouldn’t like to be one of the eggs broken for the said omelette. Plus, there were far fewer vehicles on the road in the 70’s and less powerful ones at that. Sure they are safer but that only gives the idiot 17 year old a false sense of security.
We see bunches of flowers all over the roadside in memory of teenage ‘Broken eggs’.
John Hart:
I for sure wouldn’t like to be one of the eggs broken for the said omelette. Plus, there were far fewer vehicles on the road in the 70’s and less powerful ones at that. Sure they are safer but that only gives the idiot 17 year old a false sense of security.
We see bunches of flowers all over the roadside in memory of teenage ‘Broken eggs’.
I was driving a 2.5 Litre Triumph at 18 which was fast enough at that time for the police to be using the type as motorway patrol cars and a lot quicker than a Corsa.I was also driving a 3.0 Litre BMW at 21 which was a lot faster than that and at the same age my guvnors trusted me on the road with up to 38 tonne fire trucks just after passing my class 2 a few weeks after my birthday but it was after being made redundant from that job that I then found all the prejudice against young and less experienced drivers which put me into a council job driving on local work on relatively smaller wagons than I was qualified for (except 24 tonne gritters sometimes) so I lost out on getting the experience in the industry on the long distance international work which I wanted and then I got lumbered with uk night trunking for the rest of my career after getting my class 1 at 25 because of it because like local multi drop it’s one of those jobs which is harder to fill for the guvnors and they can obviously overlook the age and experience thing when it suits them.Had I been lucky enough to start up as an owner driver at 25 I could have by passed all of that.By ‘breaking a few eggs’ I meant there has to come a time when young inexperienced drivers have to be given the chance to do the job and when they have to be let loose on their own and accept the risk.We see flowers too all the time in memory of teenagers who are given a weapon and trusted to use it to fight for their country.It’s wrong to stereotype ability and idiocy on just age and experience and it’s probably the biggest reason as to why my career in the industry never went the way in which I wanted it to in the years which it should have done.
I think it’s a good idea, in the old days there used to be a lot of working your way up the ladder, starting out in a van, then a small rigid, then a bigger one & then local shunts on the oldest artic the firm had, once you’d earned your stripes you then got a proper artic, it was the way you got experience, minimum wage may be frowned upon, but many older driver was earning considerably less while working his way up the ladder, it’s a form of apprenticeship I suppose, although nowadays it seems that the day after you pass your test you expect to get the keys to a SuperMegaTopTrotterXXL & earn a grand a week + nights out.
As an employer my view would be that anyone keen enough to do this would most likely have the right kind of attitude & would make a decent driver, but there is a lot of room for exploitation, so it would need careful handling to benefit both parties, so IMO if this hypothetical situation was managed correctly then, Yes, it’s a good idea, if it was another way to get cheap labour, well that’s inexcusable.
newmercman:
I think it’s a good idea, in the old days there used to be a lot of working your way up the ladder, starting out in a van, then a small rigid, then a bigger one & then local shunts on the oldest artic the firm had, once you’d earned your stripes you then got a proper artic, it was the way you got experience, minimum wage may be frowned upon, but many older driver was earning considerably less while working his way up the ladder, it’s a form of apprenticeship I suppose, although nowadays it seems that the day after you pass your test you expect to get the keys to a SuperMegaTopTrotterXXL & earn a grand a week + nights out.
As an employer my view would be that anyone keen enough to do this would most likely have the right kind of attitude & would make a decent driver, but there is a lot of room for exploitation, so it would need careful handling to benefit both parties, so IMO if this hypothetical situation was managed correctly then, Yes, it’s a good idea, if it was another way to get cheap labour, well that’s inexcusable.
That might work if you’re lucky enough to stay with the same employer from the time you start out.But moving between jobs in the real world,where the idea of a job for life went out years ago,that would be a hindrance to your career progression not an advantage.Nowadays it’s best to go for the best job you can get driving the best wagon because it’s no good going to the next job where the work on offer is driving one of those on international runs (if you’re very lucky that is) if all you’ve been doing before is driving a van or small rigid on local/uk work with that class 1 licence which cost you so much time,effort,and money.Having said that I went straight from rigids on the local council onto the best and fastest unit and the longest run on the firm which I finally found a job with on artics on uk trunking work doing a run which none of the other older drivers there wanted because it was also the longest hours.The result was a career spent on uk night trunking and probably the world record for rejection letters and phone calls by firms doing long distance international work.
newmercman:
I think it’s a good idea, in the old days there used to be a lot of working your way up the ladder, starting out in a van, then a small rigid, then a bigger one & then local shunts on the oldest artic the firm had, once you’d earned your stripes you then got a proper artic, it was the way you got experience, minimum wage may be frowned upon, but many older driver was earning considerably less while working his way up the ladder, it’s a form of apprenticeship I suppose, although nowadays it seems that the day after you pass your test you expect to get the keys to a SuperMegaTopTrotterXXL & earn a grand a week + nights out.
As an employer my view would be that anyone keen enough to do this would most likely have the right kind of attitude & would make a decent driver, but there is a lot of room for exploitation, so it would need careful handling to benefit both parties, so IMO if this hypothetical situation was managed correctly then, Yes, it’s a good idea, if it was another way to get cheap labour, well that’s inexcusable.
That might work if you’re lucky enough to stay with the same employer from the time you start out.But moving between jobs in the real world,where the idea of a job for life went out years ago,that would be a hindrance to your career progression not an advantage.Nowadays it’s best to go for the best job you can get driving the best wagon because it’s no good going to the next job where the work on offer is driving one of those on international runs (if you’re very lucky that is) if all you’ve been doing before is driving a van or small rigid on local/uk work with that class 1 licence which cost you so much time,effort,and money.Having said that I went straight from rigids on the local council onto the best and fastest unit and the longest run on the firm which I finally found a job with on artics on uk trunking work doing a run which none of the other older drivers there wanted because it was also the longest hours.The result was a career spent on uk night trunking and probably the world record for rejection letters and phone calls by firms doing long distance international work.
As another new driver, albeit several years ago, we went through the same but no one had a job for life in transport, instead jobs were ten a penny and you could walk out of one driving job into another on a daily basis. From this and several other posts it seems that you were a bit choosy too. I drove an under 3 tonner and I was not in the right place to do the middle east although knew many drivers who were doing it during that period, but I persevered and persuaded small haulage companies to let me have a go at something new. Do you reckon they took pity on me because I was disabled? or was it because I wasn’t so bloody picky about jobs?
I think I have only applied for about three jobs by letter, got two this way & the rest were by word of mouth, talking to company bosses at the ports or ferry terminals and keeping my ear to the ground.
The haulage industry is a very hands on, I would be willing to bet that had you gone & visited firms personally, that elusive job on the continent would’ve turned up. It may not have been the best there was, but as Wheel Nut said, once you’re doing the job you get to know other drivers & find out which firms are any good, then you either got a better job from one of your new mates or you ■■■■■■■■ your way in, it doesn’t take too long before you don’t have to exagerate your experience anymore
Location also plays a big part, I was lucky to live in an area that had a plethora of transport companies, within a 20 mile radius of home I could’ve found a job in pretty much any area of transport, both at home & abroad. It was as Wheel Nut said a time when you could walk from one job to another, but even then I had to work my way up, I drove the worst lorry on the firm, got all the crappy jobs etc, but this earned me the respect of my peers, soon I was able, through experience, to join in the conversations in the cafe/pub, i also got better lorries, better work etc. Contrast that with today, nobody wants to work their way up the ladder anymore, not just in this industry either, I call it X-Factor syndrome, no point doing the rounds of the working mans clubs etc like The Beatles, Elvis et all, today they all want to be instant stars, but all that gets you are 5 minute wonders, it’s the same in transport, a lot of of us older drivers are in it because we’re passionate about it, it’s what we do & it’s what we are, it made us better drivers. A lot of the new people coming into the industry just see as it as a way to earn a living, there’s a big difference in those attitudes & a big difference in the drivers that they produce.
newmercman:
I think it’s a good idea, in the old days there used to be a lot of working your way up the ladder, starting out in a van, then a small rigid, then a bigger one & then local shunts on the oldest artic the firm had, once you’d earned your stripes you then got a proper artic, it was the way you got experience, minimum wage may be frowned upon, but many older driver was earning considerably less while working his way up the ladder, it’s a form of apprenticeship I suppose, although nowadays it seems that the day after you pass your test you expect to get the keys to a SuperMegaTopTrotterXXL & earn a grand a week + nights out.
As an employer my view would be that anyone keen enough to do this would most likely have the right kind of attitude & would make a decent driver, but there is a lot of room for exploitation, so it would need careful handling to benefit both parties, so IMO if this hypothetical situation was managed correctly then, Yes, it’s a good idea, if it was another way to get cheap labour, well that’s inexcusable.
That might work if you’re lucky enough to stay with the same employer from the time you start out.But moving between jobs in the real world,where the idea of a job for life went out years ago,that would be a hindrance to your career progression not an advantage.Nowadays it’s best to go for the best job you can get driving the best wagon because it’s no good going to the next job where the work on offer is driving one of those on international runs (if you’re very lucky that is) if all you’ve been doing before is driving a van or small rigid on local/uk work with that class 1 licence which cost you so much time,effort,and money.Having said that I went straight from rigids on the local council onto the best and fastest unit and the longest run on the firm which I finally found a job with on artics on uk trunking work doing a run which none of the other older drivers there wanted because it was also the longest hours.The result was a career spent on uk night trunking and probably the world record for rejection letters and phone calls by firms doing long distance international work.
As another new driver, albeit several years ago, we went through the same but no one had a job for life in transport, instead jobs were ten a penny and you could walk out of one driving job into another on a daily basis. From this and several other posts it seems that you were a bit choosy too. I drove an under 3 tonner and I was not in the right place to do the middle east although knew many drivers who were doing it during that period, but I persevered and persuaded small haulage companies to let me have a go at something new. Do you reckon they took pity on me because I was disabled? or was it because I wasn’t so bloody picky about jobs?
I think I have only applied for about three jobs by letter, got two this way & the rest were by word of mouth, talking to company bosses at the ports or ferry terminals and keeping my ear to the ground.
As far as I know the best years of the M/E work or in fact most international work with british firms were during the 1970’s and early 1980’s not several years ago and in the early 1980’s when I started out as a new driver no one could walk out of one job into another on a daily basis because there were over 3 million on the dole,which for anyone interested in doing some of those runs would have needed them to have been 21 or over in the 1970’s and early 1980’s and I know from experience that those type of jobs did’nt go to new 21 year old drivers without much experience and driving a car licence type wagon seems to me to defeat the object of bothering to go for an HGV/LGV licence and certainly would’nt have put you in with the slightest chance when that old ‘what experience have you got’ question came up when discussing a potential job offer with any/all of the employers who I tried over the years from when I started.IF I’d have been choosy I certainly would’nt have bothered to work for the local council,driving all types of wagons,mostly under the spec covered by my licence,earning less than I was getting in my previous job.
If you go right back to the oringinal statement which kicked off this dicussion, your qustion will be answered.
That is precisely the point which is trying to be made.
The haulage industry is a very hands on, I would be willing to bet that had you gone & visited firms personally, that elusive job on the continent would’ve turned up. It may not have been the best there was, but as Wheel Nut said, once you’re doing the job you get to know other drivers & find out which firms are any good, then you either got a better job from one of your new mates or you [zb] your way in, it doesn’t take too long before you don’t have to exagerate your experience anymore
Location also plays a big part, I was lucky to live in an area that had a plethora of transport companies, within a 20 mile radius of home I could’ve found a job in pretty much any area of transport, both at home & abroad. It was as Wheel Nut said a time when you could walk from one job to another, but even then I had to work my way up, I drove the worst lorry on the firm, got all the crappy jobs etc, but this earned me the respect of my peers, soon I was able, through experience, to join in the conversations in the cafe/pub, i also got better lorries, better work etc. Contrast that with today, nobody wants to work their way up the ladder anymore, not just in this industry either, I call it X-Factor syndrome, no point doing the rounds of the working mans clubs etc like The Beatles, Elvis et all, today they all want to be instant stars, but all that gets you are 5 minute wonders, it’s the same in transport, a lot of of us older drivers are in it because we’re passionate about it, it’s what we do & it’s what we are, it made us better drivers. A lot of the new people coming into the industry just see as it as a way to earn a living, there’s a big difference in those attitudes & a big difference in the drivers that they produce.
I could never understand the location argument on jobs which meant running out of a depot on long continental runs.I tried most firms wherever they were in the country as Surrey was never exactly the centre of the international transport universe .I don’t buy any of those arguments and I reckon that I’d have collected exactly the same amount of rejections wether or not I’d gone in person to every one of those firms which I tried and it made no difference wether I wasted my time and money going to interviews when asked by some or just got turned down over the phone before that.In my experience a driver’s career can be too short to waste time on ‘working your way up’ .With hindsight,depending on your career goals in the industry,in general,it’s best to try for being an owner driver as soon as possible after getting your licence.It’s the start up capital which is the bigggest obstacle to that.
I doubt an owner driver with no continental experience would get far with a reputable company either, it’s the chicken & the egg scenario again, everybody wants experienced people but how do you get experience if nobody gives you a chance? I found the answer was either to get a job at a ‘Bombsite International Haulage’ driving old crap until I had a bit of experience, or I just used to lie at some places I told them so much crap that if they’d worked it all out I would’ve been 20yrs older than I was after a while I had the experience though so didn’t need to tell porkies any more
.I don’t buy any of those arguments and I reckon that I’d have collected exactly the same amount of rejections wether or not I’d gone in person to every one of those firms which I tried and it made no difference wether I wasted my time and money going to interviews when asked by some or just got turned down over the phone before that.In my experience a driver’s career can be too short to waste time on ‘working your way up’ .With hindsight,depending on your career goals in the industry,in general,it’s best to try for being an owner driver as soon as possible after getting your licence.It’s the start up capital which is the bigggest obstacle to that.
at some places I told them so much crap that if they’d worked it all out I would’ve been 20yrs older than I was