newmercman:
It has [zb] all to do with the lorry, Juddian listed a number of reasons, uneven weight distribution being in my top two in your case. Number one is mechanical, there’s a nut loose behind the wheel
I used to drive an Actros and a DAF95 on identical work, in the same locations and the Merc would have terrible traction and road handling qualities compared to the DAF, whose only difference was the twin steer. Both trucks were fine with the midlift raised. Surely the twin steer has some bearing on all this and I didn’t merely have a few nuts loose when only driving a Merc, but not a Daf?
I’m sure Merc recommend that you run the middle axle tyres pressures slightly lower than the drive axle ones to overcome the oversteer and traction problems.
The Merc has a stiffer set up than the Daf, if the energy from cornering isn’t transmitted into a lean it will go somewhere, obviously on the Benz it is going sideways.
newmercman:
The Merc has a stiffer set up than the Daf, if the energy from cornering isn’t transmitted into a lean it will go somewhere, obviously on the Benz it is going sideways.
Sounds like the set up for race cars, wet set-up normally is to reduce the stiffness on the rear.
I only looked on this thread as I thought is was a sequel to Gorillas in the Mist
newmercman:
The Merc has a stiffer set up than the Daf, if the energy from cornering isn’t transmitted into a lean it will go somewhere, obviously on the Benz it is going sideways.
Yes but even from standing starts, at traffic lights, t-junctions, pulling out of yards etc that then involved a 90 degree turn on to the road, the Merc would often just wheel spin and the back end would break away, the DAF never, not even once did this. I had always assumed it was because the DAF was also twin-steer and this aided traction while cornering, manoeuvring etc. I did exactly the same type of work to the same places in both trucks. The MAN TGX that I drove the other year when I took winter shelter in the UK was pretty crap for traction too, and that was just a basic mid-lift, non twin-steer.
Twin steers will always behave better than a midlift in tight turns. Standing starts should be the same in both, so maybe the balance between drive axle and center axle puts a bit too much on the midlift on the Merc and MAN, this will take weight from the drive axle and traction will be reduced.
newmercman:
The Merc has a stiffer set up than the Daf, if the energy from cornering isn’t transmitted into a lean it will go somewhere, obviously on the Benz it is going sideways.
Yes but even from standing starts, at traffic lights, t-junctions, pulling out of yards etc that then involved a 90 degree turn on to the road, the Merc would often just wheel spin and the back end would break away, the DAF never, not even once did this. I had always assumed it was because the DAF was also twin-steer and this aided traction while cornering, manoeuvring etc. I did exactly the same type of work to the same places in both trucks. The MAN TGX that I drove the other year when I took winter shelter in the UK was pretty crap for traction too, and that was just a basic mid-lift, non twin-steer.
The CF 460 manual i drove regularly with fixed small wheeled mid lift was very skittish, had to be very careful, main reason being cos it went like a bloody scalded cat, romped away from junctions like a manual 430 Axor…in other words up to cruising speed before most overrated Swedish tat had gone up three gears.
I agree with you that twin steers handle much better than fixed mid lifts, but at a hefty weight penalty.
newmercman:
Twin steers will always behave better than a midlift in tight turns. Standing starts should be the same in both, so maybe the balance between drive axle and center axle puts a bit too much on the midlift on the Merc and MAN, this will take weight from the drive axle and traction will be reduced.
My main issue was from a standing start, you pull forward slowly, maybe 5mph or so and then do a sharp 90 degree turn left or right on a wet surface, the DAF would handle perfectly, the Merc would start turning, break free as if on ice here in Canada and go in to an uncontrollable sort of semi jackknife manoeuvre, not a full jackknife obviously but enough to make one almost crap themselves. I also used to have issues a lot coming on to Immingham Dock and going around some of the rather tight roundabouts. The whole place is awash with coal dust and as a result they have water tanker / road sweeper type things going around day and night wetting the road to stop dust blowing. The Merc would often kick out quite badly when taking the turns, and I’m not one for turning harshly or throwing a truck in to a turn, I take it easy, but the Merc would kick out and lose traction, the Daf would not. Whatever the reasons behind it, it did not instill much confidence in the truck, which was a shame because I did like the Actros’s I drove.
My old Axor was fine as long as you got in the habit of hitting the traction button when pulling away in anything other than perfect conditions and also when doing any tight turns wet or dry. Mini roundabouts etc no probs. Once you get the habit it becomes second nature. No more problems.
FLIP:
My old Axor was fine as long as you got in the habit of hitting the traction button when pulling away in anything other than perfect conditions and also when doing any tight turns wet or dry. Mini roundabouts etc no probs. Once you get the habit it becomes second nature. No more problems.
This is the solution to the traction problem, to dump the air from the midlift temporarily. I had to do this all the time in the Merc but now and then I’d forget or not do it in time, then she’d a kick out like a barsteward.
FLIP:
My old Axor was fine as long as you got in the habit of hitting the traction button when pulling away in anything other than perfect conditions and also when doing any tight turns wet or dry. Mini roundabouts etc no probs. Once you get the habit it becomes second nature. No more problems.
This is fine until the computer drops the axle while you are still turning/accelerating (easily done on a roundabout).
I’ve heard all the advice about it being the drivers’ fault - I don’t have these problems in any other unit (old Actros, New Actros, Daf CF/XF, Stralis, MAN TGA - sorry I am not worthy - no Volvo recently) and I’m not a hairy arsed newbie/boy racer. I have avoided it becoming a major issue by my own “skill”, but that does not excuse the appalling behaviour of the Axor!
I am surprised at this, after all the Axor chassis and running gear is, or was, the same as an Actros.
I wonder if they have missed out a few bits here and there as they try to make the Axor even more of the Gaffer’s Wagon it was initially designed to be?
Skidding and spinning or bad road holding are nothing to do with the vehicle once you know how the vehicle handles it’s all the drivers problem. I was asked on my HGV test “What causes a lorry to skid ?”
I answered “The driver” and I was right.
My truck is very light when empty, alloy wheels, mostly ally trailer so I can haul 53,000lbs, so in the wet I have to take extra care because it will loose grip if I over do it, it’s not a design fault, it’s my job to have proper control.
Pat Hasler:
SNIP<Skidding and spinning or bad road holding are nothing to do with the vehicle once you know how the vehicle handles it’s all the drivers problem. I was asked on my HGV test “What causes a lorry to skid ?”
I answered “The driver” and I was right.>
I agree, but some (the Axor in particular) still handle worse than others
Pat Hasler:
Skidding and spinning or bad road holding are nothing to do with the vehicle once you know how the vehicle handles it’s all the drivers problem. I was asked on my HGV test “What causes a lorry to skid ?”
I answered “The driver” and I was right.
My truck is very light when empty, alloy wheels, mostly ally trailer so I can haul 53,000lbs, so in the wet I have to take extra care because it will loose grip if I over do it, it’s not a design fault, it’s my job to have proper control.
+1
I drive an Axor 1843 4x2 every day. It will loose grip if I boot it in the wet. Very, very easy to control.
Pat Hasler:
Skidding and spinning or bad road holding are nothing to do with the vehicle once you know how the vehicle handles it’s all the drivers problem. I was asked on my HGV test “What causes a lorry to skid ?”
I answered “The driver” and I was right.
My truck is very light when empty, alloy wheels, mostly ally trailer so I can haul 53,000lbs, so in the wet I have to take extra care because it will loose grip if I over do it, it’s not a design fault, it’s my job to have proper control.
Of course you’re right Pat, it’s down to the driver but the fact still remains that different trucks behave in different manners, per se a good driver can still keep most trucks under a safe level of control but the OP questions the handling of a specific Merc in which I’d agree that it’s a nightmare compared to other offerings of which I’d rate either a Volvo or funnily enough a MAN as far better.
Rightly or wrongly I judge a trucks road holding based on how well they handle the ruts now commonly found on most major roads, I’ve found the Actros and the Axor to be by far the worst to the point of unsafe especially when rain and far more importantly when snow is entered into the equation.
selby newcomer:
There’s a rygor Mercedes vmu at reading, so can see them sticking with mercs for the foreseeable.
You lads got volvos at Magor now??
As far as I know production of the Axor has ceased, and is being replaced by the Antos as of next year, we were told via a newsletter a couple of months ago about new trucks coming at the beginning of 2014, these would either be FM’s or the Antos, sounds like you get the Merc.
My depot (AV) still has the Axor and a dozen or so DUF’s.
Yeah it has stopped, fella from Rygor said the units that turned up were left over stock. They weren’t supposed to go on the road until December but we’re struggling for units, there’s been no units left from 10am.
The only thing an axor is good for is moving in a tight space. I would choose just about anything else to get me to that tight space though. They are tricky to keep straight on anything other than a smooth surface and brakes are atrocious. The unit on the dashboard is forever shouting at me about harsh braking and i am forever shouting back that if i don’t stand on the brakes then they don’t work
Merc have ■■■■■■ on their chips here.Now they gone for this glorified wendy house with more computers than Dell make in a year built into it they got big problems.
The Axor still had “computers” running main functions like engine,suspension.abs etc but unlike that piece of crap Actros you still had “analogue” controls for simple fuctions like windows,mirrors,lights etc.
Now they have dumped the Axor it will be the end for Mercedes in the “fleet” truck market because they think “technology” sells.Reliability sells and their technology might be very clever but its reliability is absolute crap.
