Replying to Ramone’s query about the turbo-charged test AVT800 engine. There is hearsay that it was tested in the 3VTG 6x4 concept Mammoth Major, but there was quite a lot of secrecy at Southall about that project. When the V8 episode finally came to a close in 1971 the lorry was whisked away to Leyland, just like angry parents taking a toy from a child that’s misbehaved. According to the late Gordon Baron, who worked at Leyland then, it languished there for a few years before being broken up.
Just as a recap let’s recall the various potential ground-breaking projects being tackled, along with follow on developments from existing engines and models, that Leyland, Albion, AEC, Guy, and Scammell were working on from 1963 to 1973. Did they spread themselves too thinly, even with the resources of a massive group?
Upgrading and development of the entire group truck ranges for the 1964 Construction & Use Regulations. This encompassed every aspect of chassis and running gear design.
As 1, models with the Ergomatic cab for Leyland, AEC, and Albion.
The AEC A471/505, A691/760 engines.
The Leyland 500 Series engine.
The AEC V8 project.
The Leyland Gas Turbine truck.
The Leyland Turbo-charged 690 engine.
The Leyland Two-Pedal Beaver.
The Guy Big J range.
The Scammell Crusader range.
The Leyland Atlantean Bus - ongoing development.
The Guy Wolfurian rear engined bus.
The Leyland National Bus.
The TL12 engine and T25 project.
Changing over nearly all models from out-sourced electrical components to in-house produced Butec components. There were teething troubles with this.
Looking at Gingerfolds list it was fortunate for the Leyland Group in that period of time mentioned was before they encompassed the old BMC range of commercials, the warranty claims on failures of the 5.1/5.7 litre UD and UJ engines fitted into the FJK series of trucks would just about have finished them off! Most new designs of engines had problems in service though, testing them at the works is OK with factory test pilots but you never get the same results as letting a gang of different drivers loose in them for a few months using and abusing them with all different driving styles and in a variety of climates.
Not wanting to drag this fine thread off topic but the FJ series I mentioned was a case in point, tested for months (in Finland of all places) and launched as the best truck in its class and praised very highly by the vehicle press, but in UK operations they overheated badly due to design faults in the installation (the engine itself was already proven in the FHK’s and was fine) that were never really solved despite numerous modifications and a fortune spent. I could write a book on those!
What is being overlooked here Lads was this era in question was a time of the Good 'Ole Labour Government being in power and all things “nationalised” was good ! Bollox ! and the same scenario is likely to return if Labour ever gets it’s grubby hands on the levers of power again Surely not ! Who reckons Jacob Rees Mogg would prove to be a Great PM ? Cheers B !
gingerfold:
Replying to Ramone’s query about the turbo-charged test AVT800 engine. There is hearsay that it was tested in the 3VTG 6x4 concept Mammoth Major, but there was quite a lot of secrecy at Southall about that project. When the V8 episode finally came to a close in 1971 the lorry was whisked away to Leyland…
I have a vague recollection that the turbo-charged V8 engine was to be designated the AVTM8-810, or something similar, but I have no idea where I got that from now!.
I looked at a pair of turbo-charged AEC V8 engines on Anglesey a few years ago, thinking that they were perhaps works test units, however they had a different story. After a lot of research I found out that both had been used in the early 1980’s by John Holmewood for tractor pulling in his competition tractor “The Mighty Quinn”. Both cylinder blocks were identified as 2VTG4R AV801 units fitted with iron flywheel housings. In a box accompanying the engines were a spare crankshaft and pair of both inlet and flanged exhaust manifolds which I am absolutely sure were indeed from a works turbo-charged V8 test engine. They were professionally cast and completely different to any others I had ever seen, and not like the fabricated bodged affairs fitted for tractor pulling. These two engines eventually found their way to Cambridgeshire, and were sold by auction in 2016, but although I know the buyer I don’t know if he got the manifolds with them.
gingerfold:
Replying to Ramone’s query about the turbo-charged test AVT800 engine. There is hearsay that it was tested in the 3VTG 6x4 concept Mammoth Major, but there was quite a lot of secrecy at Southall about that project. When the V8 episode finally came to a close in 1971 the lorry was whisked away to Leyland, just like angry parents taking a toy from a child that’s misbehaved. According to the late Gordon Baron, who worked at Leyland then, it languished there for a few years before being broken up.
Just as a recap let’s recall the various potential ground-breaking projects being tackled, along with follow on developments from existing engines and models, that Leyland, Albion, AEC, Guy, and Scammell were working on from 1963 to 1973. Did they spread themselves too thinly, even with the resources of a massive group?
Upgrading and development of the entire group truck ranges for the 1964 Construction & Use Regulations. This encompassed every aspect of chassis and running gear design.
As 1, models with the Ergomatic cab for Leyland, AEC, and Albion.
The AEC A471/505, A691/760 engines.
The Leyland 500 Series engine.
The AEC V8 project.
The Leyland Gas Turbine truck.
The Leyland Turbo-charged 690 engine.
The Leyland Two-Pedal Beaver.
The Guy Big J range.
The Scammell Crusader range.
The Leyland Atlantean Bus - ongoing development.
The Guy Wolfurian rear engined bus.
The Leyland National Bus.
The TL12 engine and T25 project.
Changing over nearly all models from out-sourced electrical components to in-house produced Butec components. There were teething troubles with this.
There was a lot going on.
Quantity of ideas is obviously no substitute for quality.Having said that -
They obviously had no choice.
The restraints imposed by the Ergo cab/chassis combination were a self inflicted design issue not a construction and use one or the Scammell Crusader would never have happened.
With all the 6 cylinder developments not one of them seemed to have involved any move in AEC’s design premise.In that 142 mm stroke isn’t going to be enough while the 130 mm bore is fine no need for more.
The 500 seems to have been another case of self inflicted design flaws cuased by expecting too much from a too small engine capacity predictably resulting in an over stressed grenade regardless of the other questions over the probably needless fixed head design.Which,like the AEC V8,seems to have been another one of Fogg’s zb ups.
The V8 seems to have been a case of making the wrong sized engine so as to fit in the wrong chassis under the wrong cab.See 2.
6,7 and 8. all pointless unnecessary resource draining projects.With the exception of using the 690’s basic bore stroke architecture as a basis for a decent Scania V8 competitor.
Nothing wrong with the Big J being at least a platform with the flexibility for numerous engine types fit v the Ergo.
10 See 9.
As the RM’s use well into the 1980’s if not beyond proved,followed by the Boris bus type of entry exit design,there was arguably no need for a rear engined bus design at the time or even to date.
see 11.
For single deckers why the need to move away from the proven AEC Regal IV and Reliance designs ?.IE if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
14 See 3.
Why when outsourcing of electrical components ( Lucas or Bosch ) at least seemed to be the case with the car division until the end ?.
Bewick:
What is being overlooked here Lads was this era in question was a time of the Good 'Ole Labour Government being in power and all things “nationalised” was good ! Bollox ! and the same scenario is likely to return if Labour ever gets it’s grubby hands on the levers of power again Surely not ! Who reckons Jacob Rees Mogg would prove to be a Great PM ? Cheers B !
Oh wait it all got so much better when your mate Heath wrecked the swinging 60’s by finishing the plan of handing the country over to the foreign competition.On that note there was nothing wrong with using public money to rescue the financially crippled Brit motor industry because that’s all it really was nothing more nothing less.The problem being comedians like Fogg,who self admittedly never believed himself that he’d ever be an engineer let alone a design engineer,helped by Roberts in this case,to be put in charge of Leyland’s designs well before 1968 and then Heath opening the doors to the foreign competition.
The question being deliberate sabotage and conspiracy in all that or ■■■■ up ?.While if you’re saying that it was commy Wilson who was pulling their’s and Stoke’s strings from 1964 surely that just helps my theory of it being the former.
As for Mogg maybe just so long as he’s only got a majority of one including the paddies and Hoey somehow then takes over running Labour.
ERF:
They were professionally cast and completely different to any others I had ever seen, and not like the fabricated bodged affairs fitted for tractor pulling.
It would ideally be forged for maximum strength v cast for cheap volume production if the strength can be compromised.This shows a forged crank being made.
ERF:
They were professionally cast and completely different to any others I had ever seen, and not like the fabricated bodged affairs fitted for tractor pulling.
It would ideally be forged for maximum strength v cast for cheap volume production if the strength can be compromised.This shows a forged crank being made.
ERF:
They were professionally cast and completely different to any others I had ever seen, and not like the fabricated bodged affairs fitted for tractor pulling.
It would ideally be forged for maximum strength v cast for cheap volume production if the strength can be compromised.This shows a forged crank being made.
Forged exhaust manifolds. They look great, and you can hang a really big pipe off one, without fear of it becoming detached, such is their strength. Errr… how do you do the hollow bit in the middle?
ERF:
They were professionally cast and completely different to any others I had ever seen
It would ideally be forged for maximum strength v cast for cheap volume production if the strength can be compromised.This shows a forged crank being made.
Forged exhaust manifolds. They look great, and you can hang a really big pipe off one, without fear of it becoming detached, such is their strength. Errr… how do you do the hollow bit in the middle?
It’s obvious that I had a Fogg moment by putting 2 and 2 together and came up with 5 in thinking that he was referring to the crankshaft not the manifolds.
Thanks for another plethora of informative posts CF.
You certainly provoke thought, and I’m sorry to contaminate your input with my own musings, but until now I hadn’t consciously recognised certain things you mention.
For instance, Keith Roberts & Co - why on earth they would be gushing with enthusiasm for a design they knew to be compromised and unconcluded in a Leyland issued launch promotion, I cannot begin to imagine.
Thanks also for putting me straight on the opinions expressed to me personally by Perkins development engineers. Until now I had no idea that they were just being diplomatic to others in their profession when they expressed respect for the AEC V8 designers, and stated their opinion that the AEC design was very nearly right. I now see the light
I am slightly puzzled though. You obviously have a great deal of practical experience in the design of the large capacity high speed Diesel engine. Do you not think that the 114mm stroke of the AEC design was perhaps a little short for it’s 130mm and 135mm bore? I don’t think you’ve mentioned it before, but wonder if you think it contributed to the engine’s ultimate failure, notably it’s lack of power, torque and on road performance so often reported by operators and drivers of the model?
Thanks also for pointing out the merits of forged vs cast manifolds (above).
Now duly noted.
gingerfold:
Replying to Ramone’s query about the turbo-charged test AVT800 engine. There is hearsay that it was tested in the 3VTG 6x4 concept Mammoth Major, but there was quite a lot of secrecy at Southall about that project. When the V8 episode finally came to a close in 1971 the lorry was whisked away to Leyland, just like angry parents taking a toy from a child that’s misbehaved. According to the late Gordon Baron, who worked at Leyland then, it languished there for a few years before being broken up.
Just as a recap let’s recall the various potential ground-breaking projects being tackled, along with follow on developments from existing engines and models, that Leyland, Albion, AEC, Guy, and Scammell were working on from 1963 to 1973. Did they spread themselves too thinly, even with the resources of a massive group?
Upgrading and development of the entire group truck ranges for the 1964 Construction & Use Regulations. This encompassed every aspect of chassis and running gear design.
As 1, models with the Ergomatic cab for Leyland, AEC, and Albion.
The AEC A471/505, A691/760 engines.
The Leyland 500 Series engine.
The AEC V8 project.
The Leyland Gas Turbine truck.
The Leyland Turbo-charged 690 engine.
The Leyland Two-Pedal Beaver.
The Guy Big J range.
The Scammell Crusader range.
The Leyland Atlantean Bus - ongoing development.
The Guy Wolfurian rear engined bus.
The Leyland National Bus.
The TL12 engine and T25 project.
Changing over nearly all models from out-sourced electrical components to in-house produced Butec components. There were teething troubles with this.
There was a lot going on.
What Leyland really needed was CF to work for them, he could do Monday to Wednesday on design, research and development, Thursday in the boardroom to put things right there and Friday he could meet with the various political leaders of the day to sort the Country out, leaving the weekends free to moonlight for any Merchant Banks who may need his experience in bringing down foreign competition
I do not wish this to result into a diversion from the theme of the AEC V8, but perhaps we should remind ourselves that what is still revered almost worldwide as probably the most successful engine for its application was spawned from: muddled thinking, obstinacy, failure and numerous fundamental changes in design not just during experimentation, but to the engine first put into production.
As has been said several times, we are viewing the AEC V8 with the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge of roughly another 60 years of knowledge, bitter experience, improved materials and techniques, oils and numerous other benefits that time has enabled. Furthermore it is not just computers which have made the difference to design, we should not forget that these engineers were not even using calculators, they were limited to books of tables, slide rules and manual arithmetic. All known previous data had either to be remembered or laboriously looked up in written indeces - there were no search engines to miraculously point to a possible answer. It is no wonder that they deserve respect for their efforts regardles of what happened in the short term. We simply do not know what their project might have produced.
I refer to this other engine to make the one specific point so please no lengthy discussion about it on this thread… start another one perhaps in Bullys.
For anyone who is interested in the story or wondering to what I am referring, then one article is here:
Two photos of Mandator V8 FG 6045, owned by Wilson’s Cement, Tauranga Depot, North Island, New Zealand. The tanks were by Mason and Kockums. The colour shot dates from June 1976, which would mean the V8 was 7 years old.
I have scanned the original Mandator V8 booklet photos. Apologies if the quality is not of the best, but I no longer have my original photos. Here are the front and back cover photos. (The only ones in colour)
This Spiers of Melksham V8 was originally operated by E.L. & E.R. Jones from South Wales. It was chassis number VTG4R 039, built June 1968. (Photo by Adrian Cypher)
cav551: I do not wish this to result into a diversion from the theme of the AEC V8, but perhaps we should remind ourselves that what is still revered almost worldwide as probably the most successful engine for its application was spawned from: muddled thinking, obstinacy, failure and numerous fundamental changes in design not just during experimentation, but to the engine first put into production.
As has been said several times, we are viewing the AEC V8 with the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge of roughly another 60 years of knowledge, bitter experience, improved materials and techniques, oils and numerous other benefits that time has enabled. Furthermore it is not just computers which have made the difference to design, we should not forget that these engineers were not even using calculators, they were limited to books of tables, slide rules and manual arithmetic. All known previous data had either to be remembered or laboriously looked up in written indeces - there were no search engines to miraculously point to a possible answer. It is no wonder that they deserve respect for their efforts regardles of what happened in the short term. We simply do not know what their project might have produced.
I refer to this other engine to make the one specific point so please no lengthy discussion about it on this thread… start another one perhaps in Bullys.
For anyone who is interested in the story or wondering to what I am referring, then one article is here:
Again another superb post,without covering old ground again,reading some of CF,s contributions one thing seems to have slipped his mind and in the AEC literature it has been refered too.Over the last 50 years commercial vehicles and mainly tractor units have grown,for an example park a mandator or B series next to a modern Volvo,scania or MAN,and the oldies look like a transit van in comparison,but more over frame widths have also increased,all frames now taper out at the front,back then all frames were parallel.
AEC engineers would have designed the 740/800 to fit with these dimensions,and thus refered to the engine themselves as being “compact”.As ive said before enlarging the stroke on a Vee configuration is not that simple when space is an issue and history tells us this.They done a bloody good job with the resources they had.
Derek Jeffries was the night driver shown tipping the Turners prototype V8 at Tate and Lyle, Silvertown. Delivering raw sugar from Ely beet factory. Derek went on to start his own coaching business, successfully, and when he retired he tried to find NGJ 294D with a view to restoring it.
Surely not ! 
Who reckons Jacob Rees Mogg would prove to be a Great PM ? Cheers B ! 
by putting 2 and 2 together and came up with 5 in thinking that he was referring to the crankshaft not the manifolds. 
![V8_NZ1[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/trucknetuk/original/3X/9/6/96de6cab8f406ba3d1f30d3e9694fa2dfc70c9c8.jpeg)
![V8_NZ2[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/trucknetuk/original/3X/b/8/b8c831133b189d417e07bab315a3e8d3aed20ed4.jpeg)
![V8_NZ3[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/trucknetuk/original/3X/6/2/6289411c36bf084e765da6245cc8327b55920a5e.jpeg)
![V8_1[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/trucknetuk/original/2X/2/24d76b6535e5a3f5aa754de1c134bbd5372e80f7.jpeg)
![V8_2[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/trucknetuk/original/2X/f/fd407da1f3f4dd515abd145432f09858c3dff17c.jpeg)
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![V8_7[1].jpg](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/trucknetuk/original/3X/5/3/5305728ee22d192052286f6fd1dc1bc1aeb30339.jpeg)