50,000 less containers per year out of Southampton

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

Carryfast:

Harry Monk:

Carryfast:
if long distance rail transport is supposed to be more efficient than road then the argument would hold true wherever in the world.

No, that’s my whole point, it depends entirely on local circumstances.

So what’s the big difference between a road train running long distance in OZ, North America,or Europe.

Now I make my living from driving one of the top of the range trucks huge distances over the North American continent so I don’t want to see everything go on the train for selfish reasons, but it does have a place in the transport industry, Carryfast you mention the days of the middle east runs, well that whole thing was due to the lack of container ports in the arab world, once the ports had been established the majority of freight moved by container, save for a few specialised companies, Astran for example, the days of every Tom, ■■■■ or Harry running to the desert ended, the free market made this happen, it’s the same in the USA, the majority of the population live along the Eastern Seaboard or in California, the middle of the country has a pretty low population in comparison to it’s size, but the middle of the country still needs it’s imported Chinese plastic crap, so instead of running 200 trucks 2000 miles from Elizabeth NJ or Oakland Ca to the middle of nowhere Wyoming, they put it on a train & then the local hauliers in Wyoming do the local shunts, this brings down the costs & yet still creates employment in the middle of nowhere Wyoming, 60 local drivers to deliver the boxes, loaders/unloaders & office staff at the railhead. The same applies to other goods, take Heinz Ketchup, Coca Cola, Budweiser & Reese’s Peanut Butter as an example, the people in the middle of nowhere will consume a decent amount of this, but not enough to sustain a production facility, so it’s made on the east coast & shipped there, now it’s not perishable, it’s fairly cheap, so do they really need to pay top dollar for somebody to haul it there as fast as possible in a chromed up Peterbilt? No they don’t so it goes in a much cheaper Intermodal Box & they can then charge the end user the same amount for the product as the people that live 10 miles away from the factory, it may take a extra week to get there but in that instance cost outweighs time, that’s where rail can compete with road, in this case it’s the better option.

Another factor is the fact that a lot of drivers don’t want to be spending multiple weeks away from home, shunting back & forward from factory to railhead, railhead to delivery point is all some drivers want to do, there are plenty of other goods that need to go by road the whole distance, perishables, high value loads & anything that goes on a flat trailer for example, that satifies the needs of the wandering spirits like myself, but bulk goods in any significant tonnage should go by rail, it keeps prices down & the only way it does that is by being more efficient.

62

Completely agree, and have always loved the ultra-long-haul myself, but transport constantly evolves, and just because we were doing something last year doesn’t mean we will be doing it this year, as we all know.

63

newmercman:

Carryfast:

Harry Monk:

Carryfast:
if long distance rail transport is supposed to be more efficient than road then the argument would hold true wherever in the world.

No, that’s my whole point, it depends entirely on local circumstances.

So what’s the big difference between a road train running long distance in OZ, North America,or Europe.

Now I make my living from driving one of the top of the range trucks huge distances over the North American continent so I don’t want to see everything go on the train for selfish reasons, but it does have a place in the transport industry, Carryfast you mention the days of the middle east runs, well that whole thing was due to the lack of container ports in the arab world, once the ports had been established the majority of freight moved by container, save for a few specialised companies, Astran for example, the days of every Tom, ■■■■ or Harry running to the desert ended, the free market made this happen, it’s the same in the USA, the majority of the population live along the Eastern Seaboard or in California, the middle of the country has a pretty low population in comparison to it’s size, but the middle of the country still needs it’s imported Chinese plastic crap, so instead of running 200 trucks 2000 miles from Elizabeth NJ or Oakland Ca to the middle of nowhere Wyoming, they put it on a train & then the local hauliers in Wyoming do the local shunts, this brings down the costs & yet still creates employment in the middle of nowhere Wyoming, 60 local drivers to deliver the boxes, loaders/unloaders & office staff at the railhead. The same applies to other goods, take Heinz Ketchup, Coca Cola, Budweiser & Reese’s Peanut Butter as an example, the people in the middle of nowhere will consume a decent amount of this, but not enough to sustain a production facility, so it’s made on the east coast & shipped there, now it’s not perishable, it’s fairly cheap, so do they really need to pay top dollar for somebody to haul it there as fast as possible in a chromed up Peterbilt? No they don’t so it goes in a much cheaper Intermodal Box & they can then charge the end user the same amount for the product as the people that live 10 miles away from the factory, it may take a extra week to get there but in that instance cost outweighs time, that’s where rail can compete with road, in this case it’s the better option.

Another factor is the fact that a lot of drivers don’t want to be spending multiple weeks away from home, shunting back & forward from factory to railhead, railhead to delivery point is all some drivers want to do, there are plenty of other goods that need to go by road the whole distance, perishables, high value loads & anything that goes on a flat trailer for example, that satifies the needs of the wandering spirits like myself, but bulk goods in any significant tonnage should go by rail, it keeps prices down & the only way it does that is by being more efficient.

It’s a complex discussion when it comes down to the train versus rail issue on some types of bulk loads.But it’s probably in this case one of the long distance truck driver’s view of the issue versus the one who’s happier doing local work.The local type of driver would take an entirely different view of it than someone like me?.The Middle East work from here is actually still a viable operation in competition with shipping containers out to there.But it would all look a lot different if the regs and fuel costs were different.That operation in the States would probably look a lot different if they could run road trains over there dropping as needed on the way through coast to coast for instance still leaving work for local units.In the same way as running multiple containers/trailers would in Europe or running through to M/E with a trailer or rigid and dropping another trailer in Europe on the way through and then collecting them on the way back?.While UK container work is another type of transport which should be opened up for competition between rail and road transport using LHV’s here together with the removal of fuel taxes and road taxes to make a level playing field.Who says that road transport would’nt be more efficient under those regs?.

64

Harry Monk:
Completely agree, and have always loved the ultra-long-haul myself, but transport constantly evolves, and just because we were doing something last year doesn’t mean we will be doing it this year, as we all know.

So tell that to all of the new prospective drivers and see how many you end up with to do the local intermodal work as opposed to ‘proper’ work and how many of them would think that it’s worth bothering with a class 1 to drive a 44 tonner to the shops and back when they could be driving a bus or a taxi instead with a lot less hassle.They’ll probably all want to drive the train if they’ve got any sense.

65

Carryfast:
So tell that to all of the new prospective drivers and see how many you end up with to do the local intermodal work as opposed to ‘proper’ work .

Well, there are no new prospective drivers, and for that very reason, that the job isn’t as interesting as it was in the 1980s. It’s just factory work now, clock on, clock off, read this 56-page rulebook.

The world has changed since then. It’s as sad for me as it is for you, but that’s just the way it is.

66

You’re dead right Harry, as well as the better lifestyle that being in Canada offers, the main reason I even thought about in the first place was because of the job, I can’t stand doing locals, like you I like the ultra long haul runs, that side of things is pretty much non existent in Europe now so to continue doing them I moved to the other side of the world, now that’s dedication :laughing:

The UK & Europe are not big enough for lorries any larger than the one’s it has already, if you can’t get within 20 miles of the delivery point because the outfit is too big (a roadtrain) & you have to break it down into normal sized lorries then you’re doing exactly the same as the train has to do, with less efficiency.

When you look at it the other way, a trunk from say Coca Cola at Sidcup to Coca Cola at Wakefield is pretty much all Motorway & could be done by Roadtrain, now let’s say you work for the company currently doing that, there are 20 of you on that run, all of a sudden 10 of you are redundant, that’s not good if you’re one of the drivers concerned.

Stan Robinson & Denby have come up with the idea of LHVs, do you think they did this for the benefit of the lorry driver who wants to drive a really big lorry or to put more money into their bank accounts by lowering their operating costs, they spout on about lowering emissions & all that good stuff, but at the end of the day that’s bollox, the bottom line is they want to earn more money.

Be careful what you wish for, it may come true…

67

Trade is global, and constantly finds cheaper sources. If it didn’t, colour tellies would still cost £300.

68

Harry Monk:
Trade is global, and constantly finds cheaper sources. If it didn’t, colour tellies would still cost £300.

They do, I just bought one in the services, the bloke had one left over from his deliveries, haven’t opened the box yet, but it’s bound to be a good one for 300quid :laughing: :laughing:

69

Harry Monk:
Trade is global, and constantly finds cheaper sources. If it didn’t, colour tellies would still cost £300.

Although trying to buy ■■■■ and booze in any amounts from Spain and you suddenly find out trade aint as global as it reckons !!!

70

newmercman:
Now I make my living from driving one of the top of the range trucks huge distances over the North American continent so I don’t want to see everything go on the train for selfish reasons, but it does have a place in the transport industry.

quite; i’ve been involved in moving stuff to russia for nearly 20 years (jesus where does time go? :open_mouth: ) including oversize stuff for over 12 of them - now though there’s some degree of organisation on russia’s railways and we move 75% of everything that way, it couldn’t have been done even 5 years ago. yes it’s progress but a hell of a lot less interesting of course :frowning:

71

See Mike, here’s a case in point, as you’ll know.

Back in the 1960’s, everything came in through Liverpool. Then, suddenly, trade moved eastwards, we imported less from the USA and more from Europe. Dover was born, and Liverpool died.

I live in a seaside town which died almost overnight when package holidays to Spain were invented.

It’s just the way it is. It’s sad that I can’t do a run to Istanbul any more, but I understand the reasons for it.

72

Harry Monk:
See Mike, here’s a case in point, as you’ll know.

Back in the 1960’s, everything came in through Liverpool. Then, suddenly, trade moved eastwards, we imported less from the USA and more from Europe. Dover was born, and Liverpool died.

I live in a seaside town which died almost overnight when package holidays to Spain were invented.

It’s just the way it is. It’s sad that I can’t do a run to Istanbul any more, but I understand the reasons for it.

You’re sort of right. Although most fruit and produce imported did come through here at one time, cypress spuds and tomatoes from spain etc…They now come direct by reefer and foreign driver from where they’re grown mainly . This was supposed to come into operation earier this year…
shipcanal.co.uk/assets/pdf/lpt_brochure.pdf

They interviewed for jobs and took some on but i don’t think so much as a tangerine got landed here !!!
Never know, if it takes off might be back on the market job, job and knock !!! :smiley:

73

back in the 1960s, even the music was imported through Liverpool, there was none of this “Whoo-oo, whoo-oo, evacuate the dance floor” stuff :wink:

74

Carryfast:

Harry Monk:
Completely agree with newmercman. If it is more efficient for goods to be transported in bulk by rail, then that’s how it should be done, regardless of any self-interest we may have.

The whole point of containerisation has always been to move goods in bulk as much as possible and to reduce one-man-operation movements to a minimum. Were it any other way, we would all be driving overland to China to collect all that tat :wink:

So how were they running freight economically to Asia and the Middle East by road from here in the 1970’s and early 1980’s? and if it was’nt for the high road fuel taxes and transit taxes etc etc we still could.Given the right roads and big enough trucks and the same fuel prices as rail pays yes overland to China why not?.

The boom on Europe to Middle East freight in the 70’s was for 2 reasons, the ports in the area couldn’t cope with the sudden economic expansion so ships would wait weeks to be unloaded and also the Suez Canal was closed for many years in the 70’s due to Arab Israeli conflicts this meant ships from Europe had to go all the way round Africa adding weeks to the journey. This meant that high prices could be charged for freight to be shipped by road.

75

Carryfast:

Harry Monk:
Completely agree, and have always loved the ultra-long-haul myself, but transport constantly evolves, and just because we were doing something last year doesn’t mean we will be doing it this year, as we all know.

So tell that to all of the new prospective drivers and see how many you end up with to do the local intermodal work as opposed to ‘proper’ work and how many of them would think that it’s worth bothering with a class 1 to drive a 44 tonner to the shops and back when they could be driving a bus or a taxi instead with a lot less hassle.They’ll probably all want to drive the train if they’ve got any sense.

The lack of oppertunities for new British drivers to do long distance work isn’t so much to do with the Railways, but cheaper international haulage from other countries.
Of course there is also the fact that for many even one night out doesn’t appeal, social life, family, weekends at home seem more important than wanting to run to far flung parts.

76

Carryfast:
‘…bring it on let’s see who wins out…’

Tut-tut - now you know that we’re not allowed to unless Brussels gives it the nod first …remember who’s country it is.

77

muckles:
The lack of oppertunities for new British drivers to do long distance work isn’t so much to do with the Railways, but cheaper international haulage from other countries.
Of course there is also the fact that for many even one night out doesn’t appeal, social life, family, weekends at home seem more important than wanting to run to far flung parts.

And that same reason explains why the Dutch who were at the forefront of Internationaal Transport, well just in front of the Brits at the borders, but behind at the bars are also reluctant to spend 3 weeks away when they can be in Jans bar on a Friday afty before allocking off for the weekend in a 2 berth caravan

78

muckles:

Carryfast:

Harry Monk:
Completely agree with newmercman. If it is more efficient for goods to be transported in bulk by rail, then that’s how it should be done, regardless of any self-interest we may have.

The whole point of containerisation has always been to move goods in bulk as much as possible and to reduce one-man-operation movements to a minimum. Were it any other way, we would all be driving overland to China to collect all that tat :wink:

So how were they running freight economically to Asia and the Middle East by road from here in the 1970’s and early 1980’s? and if it was’nt for the high road fuel taxes and transit taxes etc etc we still could.Given the right roads and big enough trucks and the same fuel prices as rail pays yes overland to China why not?.

The boom on Europe to Middle East freight in the 70’s was for 2 reasons, the ports in the area couldn’t cope with the sudden economic expansion so ships would wait weeks to be unloaded and also the Suez Canal was closed for many years in the 70’s due to Arab Israeli conflicts this meant ships from Europe had to go all the way round Africa adding weeks to the journey. This meant that high prices could be charged for freight to be shipped by road.

If what we hear on here from those still running there the rate still works out at twice as much per mile as you’d get to run on European work.It’s just that like all other types of road transport the overheads have gone through the roof because of fuel costs etc.which of course is government policy to artificially make road less competitive than rail transport.It’s just that in the case of M/E work it’s the container ships which pick up the benefit not rail.But a container ship still does’nt stand a chance when it comes to to the time factor in getting freight to M/E from Europe.

79

muckles:

Carryfast:

Harry Monk:
Completely agree, and have always loved the ultra-long-haul myself, but transport constantly evolves, and just because we were doing something last year doesn’t mean we will be doing it this year, as we all know.

So tell that to all of the new prospective drivers and see how many you end up with to do the local intermodal work as opposed to ‘proper’ work and how many of them would think that it’s worth bothering with a class 1 to drive a 44 tonner to the shops and back when they could be driving a bus or a taxi instead with a lot less hassle.They’ll probably all want to drive the train if they’ve got any sense.

The lack of oppertunities for new British drivers to do long distance work isn’t so much to do with the Railways, but cheaper international haulage from other countries.
Of course there is also the fact that for many even one night out doesn’t appeal, social life, family, weekends at home seem more important than wanting to run to far flung parts.

Really so all of those freight trains running through the channel tunnel and trains running containers from the continental ports throughout Europe must just be an illusion.And you can still have a decent home life and do long distance work if you employ enough drivers to work decent rotas or if you can afford to earn enough doing less runs.

80

Wheel Nut:

muckles:
The lack of oppertunities for new British drivers to do long distance work isn’t so much to do with the Railways, but cheaper international haulage from other countries.
Of course there is also the fact that for many even one night out doesn’t appeal, social life, family, weekends at home seem more important than wanting to run to far flung parts.

And that same reason explains why the Dutch who were at the forefront of Internationaal Transport, well just in front of the Brits at the borders, but behind at the bars are also reluctant to spend 3 weeks away when they can be in Jans bar on a Friday afty before allocking off for the weekend in a 2 berth caravan

If they schmoke enough of that waccy baccy in those bars they would’nt even know anything about the weekend until Monday. :laughing: