48 hrs per week average rule

[dozy]

internetfan:

1. So, does VOSA take this 48 hrs per week average, seriously?
2. What happens if they find out you have done more over say, last 8 months, providing the reference period is 26 weeks?
3. What happens the company you are working for insists on you working 60 hrs per week, you work for them for 3 months, then change job and work for another company that also wants you to work 60 hrs per week? How do you average down to 48 hrs per week in this case?
4. What happens if you work 60 hrs per week, get a sack after 3 months of working for them, find another company that also wants you to work 60 hrs per week?
5. what happens if you just keep working 60 hrs per week and VOSA finds out. Can they find out at all?
   I suspect most drivers work 60 hrs per week constantly, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to make a living with these very low hourly pay that truckers get these days. Am I wrong?

thanks

Ours are now getting that desperate for you to keep your WTD under 48 hrs there now telling you to get it on poa when your in a que,any que,minutes add up,
Don’t sound good to me,minute here,minute there,but he records it’s fine

[winseer]

My argument becomes political, because the authorities have no interest whatsoever in busting people for infringements, unless and until an accident occurs because of such a breach.

How many drivers sentenced to 6 years for causing death by dangerous driving had CLEAN tachos doya think?

Most will have been convicted because they didn’t have clean tachos.

If I say it’s wrong to kill people, and the government says it’s OK, then I’m going to be seen as just a prat who’s been proven wrong by government edict, whilst the government will be seen by this voice crying in the wilderness as bloody murders for legalising murder, and brushing under the carpet all those who object (eg. Blair and the war in Iraq)

• there’s another example of a political argument that I’m always going to be the wrong side of in the eyes of the authorities, and in that, I get seen as merely another conspiracy theorist who can be safely ignored.

Something is thus “right and lawful” if the bignobs in charge say it is, and the only sin in such a system is to disagree with the ones in charge. They’ll never be held to account in their own right, because crap only flows downhill, and never seems to defy gravity to plaster those at the top instead. Crap going uphill is known as a “scandal”, and the normal social injustice the rest of the time is called “business as usual”.
Even in the Army, an officer would never be sentenced to death. Only a private can be executed.
Thus, the officer found guilty of a capital offence has to be stripped of all rank before being sentenced.

The idea of limiting drivers HOURS ON SHIFT (rather than just driving hours) is central to the concept that “falling asleep at the wheel kills more people than bad driving does”. Is anyone who’s had a friend/relative killed by a truck going to be sympathetic to a trucker who’s doing 60+ hours every week on shift, and accept it’s “alright because only 45 of them were driving”…

The law is an ■■■ as usual. It needs to be re-drafted to both save lives, and cut down on overhours abuses by employers who’ll get drivers to work more hours for the same or less pay.

If we could not legally work more than 48 hours per week EVER on shift, any job, any time, then wages would have to rise, because of the ensuing labour shortages, and of course jobs would be created too. Surely we’d all like to be earning £640 a week for a 48 hour week? This is a perfectly reasonable wage to expect in 2013, and not some silly pipe dream…

Drivers hours and WTD legislation have holes you can drive a 44t truck through. Lives and livelihoods are being lost daily because of such daft loopholed legislation to be sure.

[205]

Winseer:

internetfan:
5. what happens if you just keep working 60 hrs per week and VOSA finds out. Can they find out at all? It would only appear at operator’s office audit. There’s only 28 days of data on the digicards,

Last time i checked my old card, there was over 150 days worth spread over 18 months
have had new card 3 months now and all data is still there and thats working 5/6/5/6

[scaniason]

Is the rtd enforced in other EU countries, at the roadside? My card is clean of any tacho infringements, but often runs over the 48 hour average for the period. Is this anything to worry about if I was to go to eg Spain?

Gary

[internetfan]

ok, speaking of accidents

so, what would happen if you worked for a company that had an extended workplace agreement with its drivers that reference period has been extended from 17 weeks to 26 weeks.
You’ve been working for said company driving around doing 55 - 60 hrs of driving and other work (after POAs and breaks have been deducted).
You’ve been working like this for 5 months being forced to max your hours, then you were involved in a serious accident, where someone got killed or seriously injured and it was your fault.
They would check your digi card and would find out you were working 55 - 60 hours every week for the last 5 months and when asked why were you working more than 48 hrs per week on average, and you would reply : “because we have an extended 26 week reference period and I was going to be given 3 weeks or so at the end of that 26 weeks reference period”.
Would it be enough as a reasonable explanation?
Lets even forget about who was responsible for causing this accident, you would be investigated and your digi card regardless of who was at fault.
The questions is: would that explanation given above be good enough for the authorities?

Thanks

[sidevalve]

internetfan:
ok, speaking of accidents

so, what would happen if you worked for a company that had an extended workplace agreement with its drivers that reference period has been extended from 17 weeks to 26 weeks.
You’ve been working for said company driving around doing 55 - 60 hrs of driving and other work (after POAs and breaks have been deducted).
You’ve been working like this for 5 months being forced to max your hours, then you were involved in a serious accident, where someone got killed or seriously injured and it was your fault.
They would check your digi card and would find out you were working 55 - 60 hours every week for the last 5 months and when asked why were you working more than 48 hrs per week on average, and you would reply : “because we have an extended 26 week reference period and I was going to be given 3 weeks or so at the end of that 26 weeks reference period”.
Would it be enough as a reasonable explanation?
Lets even forget about who was responsible for causing this accident, you would be investigated and your digi card regardless of who was at fault.
The questions is: would that explanation given above be good enough for the authorities?

Thanks

I would suggest that if the powers that be thought that the higher weekly limit went over the bounds of acceptability they wouldn’t allow it in the first place, and nor for that matter would the unions.

Yes you’re doing a lot of hours a week; but you’re still bound by the same rules of daily and weekly rest same as anyone else is. In my part of the industry (animal feed supply) it goes without saying that the work has seasonal peaks, and those mostly occur during the winter months when driving in general is more stressful and tiring. In extreme circumstances, like the bad weather last winter,some (but not all, see below) of those rules are waived for short periods in order to get food and fuel out to where it should be. It has to be said here that those waivers do NOT include having less than nine hours rest in any 24, nor do they allow for driving over ten hours per day or more than four and a half without a break.

In practice of course these conditions only occur for about three or four weeks in any year. Yes it is bloody tiring and you’re glad of a breather when the snow finally goes but it comes with the territory.

[winseer]

As I said earlier - the rules are bent to suit the profits of industry, rather than the safety of the public or the driver actually taking the risks doing the job.
It’s been made “OK” to drive tired for the “needs of the operation” because some bignob said so. What does the bignob say to the widow? - Nowt. Because the bignob never gets to meet the widow. He does get to keep his share dividend/job/liberty however. Even any HSE fines which are levied against the company, can promptly be written off as a tax loss, rather than an individual in high authority who might actually be a few quid out of pocket - IF they were ever personally fined heavily for a “death on site” or “on their watch” etc etc.

“Rules waived” also keeps the deaths on the road statistics at similar levels each year, despite other improvements in road safety that would otherwise have knocked it down again.

We really need to hear “A company director was arrested” instead of “A driver was arrested at the scene” in the media I reckon.

[dipper_dave]

Winseer:
We really need to hear “A company director was arrested” instead of “A driver was arrested at the scene” in the media I reckon.

A sad event but from this article it appears Police are now looking ‘beyond the driver’ for culpability.

dwf.co.uk/news/legal-updates … -the-wheel

On 28 June 2013, two former partners of AJ Haulage were sentenced to a combined period of 6.5 years for manslaughter offences after one of their drivers fell asleep at the wheel and died when his lorry collided with stationary traffic in February 2010.

The driver, Stephen Kenyon’s, tachograph records showed that he had worked for 19 hours and 15 minutes on the day that he died. In that time he had been driving for 13 hours and 8 minutes and had covered 592 miles.

[timbertoad]

internetfan:
If he does so many hours over the 48hrs limit than he should be getting something like 8-12hrs off, at the end of his 26 weeks reference period, for every week he has been working.
That would mean he would have an extra 2-3 weeks of time off (holiday) at the end of his 26 weeks reference period.

Thanks

Yes he would have a holiday, although it would be an unpaid one as a weeks paid holiday counts as a 48 hour working week.

[rog]

TimberToad:

internetfan:
If he does so many hours over the 48hrs limit than he should be getting something like 8-12hrs off, at the end of his 26 weeks reference period, for every week he has been working.
That would mean he would have an extra 2-3 weeks of time off (holiday) at the end of his 26 weeks reference period.

Thanks

Yes he would have a holiday, although it would be an unpaid one as a weeks paid holiday counts as a 48 hour working week.

Only the first 4 weeks needs to be taken into account for RTD so if that 2-3 week holiday was extra to 4 weeks then paid or not it would not need to be counted for RTD

[weeto]

Rhythm Thief:

stevieboy308:
i don’t see your reason why you’ve never used poa, but that’s up to you

Because I recognised from the start that POA was (and is) a ridiculous unpoliceable fudge which would lead to a net change of absolutely sod - all in our excessive working hours. At the time the WTD was first mooted, I was working on general haulage doing 70+ hours a week, which was nothing unusual. I felt then that that was too many hours, and when I discovered that legislation was being introduced to bring it down to 48 hours, I was over the moon: I could have my working week all wrapped up by Thursday morning! Then POA was introduced and it became apparent that very little was going to change. So I refused to book POA, and eventually found myself a job where I didn’t need to.

Totally agree with you on this POA garbage! POA WASNT thought up by the EU Or UK GOV, it’s was forced through by the big blue chip companies so max hours could still be achieved.
I wasn’t to happy when this POA was brought into the equation of a 48 hr week, so much so, I left the industry for 8 years, and watch from the outside what happened when it came into force, like what’s been posted drivers were still able to clock up 70-80 hrs legally, so basicly the RTD was a total waste of tax payers money to implement, from a drivers point of view!!
Also just to add, drivers who insist on using POA have done this industry no favours.
We was promised a 48 hr week, it didn’t happen, we got screwed over, with this POA.

[rog]

I think I am correct in saying that the original idea was for an average 48 hour shift time week and not working time week but the UK Govt vetoed it

The EU parliament made a directive
The UK Gov had to comply or get fined big time
UK put almost everything in place except the manpower to enforce it and sanctions for non compliance
Now UK does not get fined by EU but the reality is that nowt happens for non compliance

[wildfire]

weeto:

Rhythm Thief:

stevieboy308:
i don’t see your reason why you’ve never used poa, but that’s up to you

Because I recognised from the start that POA was (and is) a ridiculous unpoliceable fudge which would lead to a net change of absolutely sod - all in our excessive working hours. At the time the WTD was first mooted, I was working on general haulage doing 70+ hours a week, which was nothing unusual. I felt then that that was too many hours, and when I discovered that legislation was being introduced to bring it down to 48 hours, I was over the moon: I could have my working week all wrapped up by Thursday morning! Then POA was introduced and it became apparent that very little was going to change. So I refused to book POA, and eventually found myself a job where I didn’t need to.

Totally agree with you on this POA garbage! POA WASNT thought up by the EU Or UK GOV, it’s was forced through by the big blue chip companies so max hours could still be achieved.
I wasn’t to happy when this POA was brought into the equation of a 48 hr week, so much so, I left the industry for 8 years, and watch from the outside what happened when it came into force, like what’s been posted drivers were still able to clock up 70-80 hrs legally, so basicly the RTD was a total waste of tax payers money to implement, from a drivers point of view!!
Also just to add, drivers who insist on using POA have done this industry no favours.
We was promised a 48 hr week, it didn’t happen, we got screwed over, with this POA.

Poa is laid down in the legislation from Brussels, so it had to be approved by all the E.U. states for that to happens. So saying it didn’t come from the E.U. isn’t quite correct

[weeto]

ROG:
I think I am correct in saying that the original idea was for an average 48 hour shift time week and not working time week but the UK Govt vetoed it

The EU parliament made a directive
The UK Gov had to comply or get fined big time
UK put almost everything in place except the manpower to enforce it and sanctions for non compliance
Now UK does not get fined by EU but the reality is that nowt happens for non compliance

I think you should perhaps take a history lesson on the subject ROG! It can all be researched from the truck related magazines from the mid to late 90s! Then you can come back and state facts!
Originally it was going to be 48 hr maximum working week as is from clocking on to clocking off, that included all breaks, driving and other work, it was also the reason why a lot of companies started to implement 4 on 4 off with 12 hour shifts!! Just so they could comply as soon as it was implemented.
If you wasn’t in the industry prior to 1999, you really can’t coment, unless you’ve done your home work on the subject! This is not directly aimed at you ROG, it is aimed at the posters in general!

[rog]

weeto:

ROG:
I think I am correct in saying that the original idea was for an average 48 hour shift time week and not working time week but the UK Govt vetoed it

The EU parliament made a directive
The UK Gov had to comply or get fined big time
UK put almost everything in place except the manpower to enforce it and sanctions for non compliance
Now UK does not get fined by EU but the reality is that nowt happens for non compliance

I think you should perhaps take a history lesson on the subject ROG! It can all be researched from the truck related magazines from the mid to late 90s! Then you can come back and state facts!
Originally it was going to be 48 hr maximum working week as is from clocking on to clocking off, that included all breaks, driving and other work, it was also the reason why a lot of companies started to implement 4 on 4 off with 12 hour shifts!! Just so they could comply as soon as it was implemented.
If you wasn’t in the industry prior to 1999, you really can’t coment, unless you’ve done your home work on the subject! This is not directly aimed at you ROG, it is aimed at the posters in general!

total shift time … that is from clocking on to clocking off !!!

[weeto]

ROG:

weeto:

ROG:
I think I am correct in saying that the original idea was for an average 48 hour shift time week and not working time week but the UK Govt vetoed it

The EU parliament made a directive
The UK Gov had to comply or get fined big time
UK put almost everything in place except the manpower to enforce it and sanctions for non compliance
Now UK does not get fined by EU but the reality is that nowt happens for non compliance

I think you should perhaps take a history lesson on the subject ROG! It can all be researched from the truck related magazines from the mid to late 90s! Then you can come back and state facts!
Originally it was going to be 48 hr maximum working week as is from clocking on to clocking off, that included all breaks, driving and other work, it was also the reason why a lot of companies started to implement 4 on 4 off with 12 hour shifts!! Just so they could comply as soon as it was implemented.
If you wasn’t in the industry prior to 1999, you really can’t coment, unless you’ve done your home work on the subject! This is not directly aimed at you ROG, it is aimed at the posters in general!

total shift time … that is from clocking on to clocking off !!!

Yes, a maximum duty time of 48 hrs per week!! That’s what was printed.

[weeto]

wildfire:

weeto:

Rhythm Thief:

stevieboy308:
i don’t see your reason why you’ve never used poa, but that’s up to you

Because I recognised from the start that POA was (and is) a ridiculous unpoliceable fudge which would lead to a net change of absolutely sod - all in our excessive working hours. At the time the WTD was first mooted, I was working on general haulage doing 70+ hours a week, which was nothing unusual. I felt then that that was too many hours, and when I discovered that legislation was being introduced to bring it down to 48 hours, I was over the moon: I could have my working week all wrapped up by Thursday morning! Then POA was introduced and it became apparent that very little was going to change. So I refused to book POA, and eventually found myself a job where I didn’t need to.

Totally agree with you on this POA garbage! POA WASNT thought up by the EU Or UK GOV, it’s was forced through by the big blue chip companies so max hours could still be achieved.
I wasn’t to happy when this POA was brought into the equation of a 48 hr week, so much so, I left the industry for 8 years, and watch from the outside what happened when it came into force, like what’s been posted drivers were still able to clock up 70-80 hrs legally, so basicly the RTD was a total waste of tax payers money to implement, from a drivers point of view!!
Also just to add, drivers who insist on using POA have done this industry no favours.
We was promised a 48 hr week, it didn’t happen, we got screwed over, with this POA.

Poa is laid down in the legislation from Brussels, so it had to be approved by all the E.U. states for that to happens. So saying it didn’t come from the E.U. isn’t quite correct

Any thing can be added or removed from future legislation by any one with power and money, it’s upto the law makers wether it’s included or removed, that’s what consultation periods are for.
Just because they enforce the law, doesn’t mean they thought of everything that’s in it!

[rog]

weeto - you are saying the same thing as me but posting looks like you are disagreeing

I started LGV driving (if you count 7.5) in the late 70s so I know that the RTD/WTD is pointless for the most part

The only thing I could find useful was the legally required break for the 6 hour rule because before that a driver could legally do a 15 hour shift with less than 4.5 hours driving and could legally have no break at all

[weeto]

ROG:
weeto - you are saying the same thing as me but posting looks like you are disagreeing

I started LGV driving (if you count 7.5) in the late 70s so I know that the RTD/WTD is pointless for the most part

The only thing I could find useful was the legally required break for the 6 hour rule because before that a driver could legally do a 15 hour shift with less than 4.5 hours driving and could legally have no break at all

Probably are ROG, all I know is we got screwed over with POA.
But we only have our selves to blame!

[winseer]

TimberToad:

internetfan:
If he does so many hours over the 48hrs limit than he should be getting something like 8-12hrs off, at the end of his 26 weeks reference period, for every week he has been working.
That would mean he would have an extra 2-3 weeks of time off (holiday) at the end of his 26 weeks reference period.

Thanks

Yes he would have a holiday, although it would be an unpaid one as a weeks paid holiday counts as a 48 hour working week.

Only the first four weeks holiday count as 48 hours each. All holiday beyond “stat leave” (ie. day 21 onwards) count as ZERO hours.