Drivers who kill could receive life sentences...

[Stephenjp]

A new law coming into force, could see dangerous drivers imprisoned for life....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61940351

[stu675]

I would be happy if this line was extended to the removal of all speed enforcement, drink drive enforcement, red light enforcement, basically only a consequence based punishment system rather than a perceived risk system that we have.

[Carryfast]

I would be happy if this line was extended to the removal of all speed enforcement, drink drive enforcement, red light enforcement, basically only a consequence based punishment system rather than a perceived risk system that we have.

Sounds like the justice system of a Latin American banana republic.There are numerous scenarios in which a fatal collision isn't the fault of the driver or surviving driver.
Also bearing in mind the potential for crash for cash scams going wrong and drivers or witnesses lying about or confusing the circumstances thereby sending an innocent person down.
Such as someone accelerating while being overtaken.All the evidence will put the blame on the overtaking driver with no way of proving who was really to blame.Be careful what you wish for.

[Old John]

I would be happy if this line was extended to the removal of all speed enforcement, drink drive enforcement, red light enforcement, basically only a consequence based punishment system rather than a perceived risk system that we have.

I take it that you consider that revenge for the consequences of a wrong is preferable to having tried to prevent the wrong ever taking place?
If I were to be maimed or killed by a drunk/speeding/ signal jumping/ (take your pick) driver, it would be scant comfort to know that the perpetrator would receive a heavy, but finite punishment, as i would be maimed, or dead, forever.
Or, am I misunderstanding your position?

[robroy]

Something to think about for those sat on the back bumpers of cars in roadworks etc,.
(For some unknown reason usually an over blinged to the point of bad taste motor and mostly a one pulling a tipper trailer. )

Saw one the other week 3 lanes of rush traffic running about 50 mph, a knobhead right up this car's exhaust pipe.
Ok I get the frustration aspect if said car was out on his own middle lane hogging..., but he could neither pull back into lane 1 nor overtake in lane 3, but this knob head was harassing him anyway.
Still,.I reckon 20 years behind bars in Durham would be a relief from his stress laden work life outside.

[stu675]

I would be happy if this line was extended to the removal of all speed enforcement, drink drive enforcement, red light enforcement, basically only a consequence based punishment system rather than a perceived risk system that we have.

I take it that you consider that revenge for the consequences of a wrong is preferable to having tried to prevent the wrong ever taking place?
If I were to be maimed or killed by a drunk/speeding/ signal jumping/ (take your pick) driver, it would be scant comfort to know that the perpetrator would receive a heavy, but finite punishment, as i would be maimed, or dead, forever.
Or, am I misunderstanding your position?

I would just like an ideal world where everyone took responsibility for their actions so that no harm came to anybody else. But we didn't have to follow the silly rules that other people thought were appropriate for us.

[bigdave789]

I saw this article on the BBC News website, I knew it’s been proposed for a number of years since the horrific accident on the A34 when the woman and children were killed in the Vauxhall Corsa and the HGV driver was filmed by the in cab recording to be messing around on his iTunes at the point of impact
It’s a sobering thought that every time you start a shift that you could be involved in criminal proceedings which result in a life sentence in prison, given the average age of a UK Class One HGV licence holder is 57 years old, that’s condemning to die behind bars, a whole life tariff
That’s the weight of responsibility on a driver’s shoulders, not the pointy shoe gelled hair adolescent in the office who’s planned the driver’s work but never actually even sat in a wagon
Who here hasn’t at one point felt drowsy behind the wheel? You’re working long hours, you get poor if any sleep, you’re sat in your air suspended armchair , automatic transmission, cab heater on, it’s dark and cold outside and you’ve got the cruise control on and people wonder why drivers nod off
The next thing you know you’ve ploughed into the back of the standing traffic and your life just went down the toilet, it’s as quick and easy as that

[Conor]

Who here hasn’t at one point felt drowsy behind the wheel? You’re working long hours, you get poor if any sleep, you’re sat in your air suspended armchair , automatic transmission, cab heater on, it’s dark and cold outside and you’ve got the cruise control on and people wonder why drivers nod off
The next thing you know you’ve ploughed into the back of the standing traffic and your life just went down the toilet, it’s as quick and easy as that

Yeah but you know you're getting tired before you get to that point. The majority of bad lorry driving I see that is likely to end up in an accident has nothing to do with fatigue. I had one muppet on the A66 on Friday night as we're coming to the end of the DC section before Bowes heading Westbound right up my arse, literally not even a car away as we're doing 60 dropping down the hill sticking his cab out to see if he can do an overtake when we've already passed the signs for the end of the DC and it's started to go into one lane and he can't claim ignorance of the road because it was a transport company from Penrith.

[Carryfast]

I saw this article on the BBC News website, I knew it’s been proposed for a number of years since the horrific accident on the A34 when the woman and children were killed in the Vauxhall Corsa and the HGV driver was filmed by the in cab recording to be messing around on his iTunes at the point of impact
It’s a sobering thought that every time you start a shift that you could be involved in criminal proceedings which result in a life sentence in prison, given the average age of a UK Class One HGV licence holder is 57 years old, that’s condemning to die behind bars, a whole life tariff
That’s the weight of responsibility on a driver’s shoulders, not the pointy shoe gelled hair adolescent in the office who’s planned the driver’s work but never actually even sat in a wagon
Who here hasn’t at one point felt drowsy behind the wheel? You’re working long hours, you get poor if any sleep, you’re sat in your air suspended armchair , automatic transmission, cab heater on, it’s dark and cold outside and you’ve got the cruise control on and people wonder why drivers nod off
The next thing you know you’ve ploughed into the back of the standing traffic and your life just went down the toilet, it’s as quick and easy as that

Effectively it's the American type offence of vehicular homicide as shown in the film Black Dog.
At the very least it makes the drivers' hours rules and anything more than 4 on 4 off a liability for all concerned.
Also the grey are of night work and body clock issues which the 4 on 4 off pattern could make even worse requiring a different type of rest regime like 8 week's holiday and 4 on 8 off shift pattern.It will take at least 4 days of that 8 day weekend to adjust the body clock at home not on the road, if you want to live a proper life.
Contrary to Conor's ideas, by its nature the borderline between inevitably feeling a bit tired at the 11 or 12 hours mark and totally switching off into sleep after that, is an instantaneous and unpredictable and unconscious event.
Bearing in mind all the automated protection systems that train drivers have the luxury of.

[Zac_A]

I saw this article on the BBC News website, I knew it’s been proposed for a number of years since the horrific accident on the A34 when the woman and children were killed in the Vauxhall Corsa and the HGV driver was filmed by the in cab recording to be messing around on his iTunes at the point of impact

Tomasz Kroker, I'd be content to have seen him get a life sentence, and I bet the parents of those children would too; especially as he appealed his 10 year sentence, thinking it unfair punishment for killing three children and one adult.

This law isn't just about truck drivers though, plenty of killer car drivers out there.

I'd have considered it fair to see this guy get a life sentence too, instead of 8 years and 10 months
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-59951710

[atlas man]

i think its a publicity thing, they can already get 14 years but carnt remember seeing anyone getting the maximum

[Acorn]

The life sentence is the headline, the real concern is imprisonment for causing serious injury by driving without due care & attention. Serious injury has a quite low threshold such as breakages or a precautionary overnight in hospital, and due care also has a very low threshold. That's what should be really waking folks up as to the consequences.

[peirre]

.Still,.I reckon 20 years behind bars in Durham

Which one in Durham? As there’s 3 and I’ve been in all of em. The one in the town centre is the one most think off, but there’s a couple (side by side M+F) that are the other side of town in Brasside.

I had one muppet on the A66 on Friday night as we're coming to the end of the DC section before Bowes heading Westbound right up my arse, literally not even a car away as we're doing 60 dropping down the hill sticking his cab out to see if he can do an overtake when we've already passed the signs for the end of the DC and it's started to go into one lane and he can't claim ignorance of the road because it was a transport company from Penrith.

I wonder if it was Dozy trying to get home in Friday night so he could have a steak dinner

[Carryfast]

The life sentence is the headline, the real concern is imprisonment for causing serious injury by driving without due care & attention. Serious injury has a quite low threshold such as breakages or a precautionary overnight in hospital, and due care also has a very low threshold. That's what should be really waking folks up as to the consequences.

The real concern is that thresholds and definitions are being manipulated turning accidental unintended death and injury into the types of penalties imposed for intentional.For obvious politically motivated reasons to intimidate drivers off the roads.
To the point where physical attacks resulting in death and injury have been given less than life sentences and reduced sentences because intent wasn't proven.

[Zac_A]

.Still,.I reckon 20 years behind bars in Durham

Which one in Durham? As there’s 3 and I’ve been in all of em. The one in the town centre is the one most think off, but there’s a couple (side by side M+F) that are the other side of town in Brasside.

That begs the question of what you might have been doing in the female prison

[peirre]

That begs the question of what you might have been doing in the female prison

Delivering the weekly “canteen” for the inmates.
Aka their tuck shop orders what they spend their money on (aka tobacco, sweets, pop, crisps, sweets, personal hygiene, chilled and fresh foods etc etc).
I’ve been in nearly every prison from Northumberland down to isle of Sheppy. Some are open prisons in country houses (askham grange, Foston) and a mix of old and modern prisons, most of the time I was inside the prisoner where moving around next to me.
They order the canteen from a list of 500 items and pay for it with the money/credit they have. The order is picked and packed at a central prison Workshop staffed by Cons and run by DHL. 1 prison workshop will serve approximately 11-12 nearby prisons, in the case of Durham, the workshop was at Holme House Stockton on tees.
Each order is picked and heat sealed in a clear plastic bag, sealed with others in tote boxes and taken to a prison on Canteen day in the back of a sealed 18T-22T box van, depending on the prison the orders will either be dished out on the wing by the PO’s or by DHL staff. In the case of Durham (and others) I would have to drive the truck around Nick stopping at the back door to each wing drop off the full totes and collect the empties from the previous delivery. Then either take em to Holme house or back to the yard. Cat A prisons get the best choice of canteen as they can have frozen stuff inc chickens and fish/prawns delivered. The cat A prisons are generally the ones we wasn’t able to get in (Full Sutton etc) as deliveries where received at a separate secure goods in where the whole pallets where lifted from the wagon and into one end of the goods in and X-rayed before being loaded onto a prison wagon and take in the Nick by the staff.

[corij]

That begs the question of what you might have been doing in the female prison

Delivering the weekly “canteen” for the inmates.
Aka their tuck shop orders what they spend their money on (aka tobacco, sweets, pop, crisps, sweets, personal hygiene, chilled and fresh foods etc etc).
I’ve been in nearly every prison from Northumberland down to isle of Sheppy. Some are open prisons in country houses (askham grange, Foston) and a mix of old and modern prisons, most of the time I was inside the prisoner where moving around next to me.
They order the canteen from a list of 500 items and pay for it with the money/credit they have. The order is picked and packed at a central prison Workshop staffed by Cons and run by DHL. 1 prison workshop will serve approximately 11-12 nearby prisons, in the case of Durham, the workshop was at Holme House Stockton on tees.
Each order is picked and heat sealed in a clear plastic bag, sealed with others in tote boxes and taken to a prison on Canteen day in the back of a sealed 18T-22T box van, depending on the prison the orders will either be dished out on the wing by the PO’s or by DHL staff. In the case of Durham (and others) I would have to drive the truck around Nick stopping at the back door to each wing drop off the full totes and collect the empties from the previous delivery. Then either take em to Holme house or back to the yard. Cat A prisons get the best choice of canteen as they can have frozen stuff inc chickens and fish/prawns delivered. The cat A prisons are generally the ones we wasn’t able to get in (Full Sutton etc) as deliveries where received at a separate secure goods in where the whole pallets where lifted from the wagon and into one end of the goods in and X-rayed before being loaded onto a prison wagon and take in the Nick by the staff.

does it have the inmates name on the goodie bag,if so itd be tempting to add a dash of arsenic to a monsters tuck

[Carryfast]

Obviously different rules apply to foreign scammers causing deliberate staged collisions and resulting fatalities.
https://news.sky.com/story/crash-for-ca ... m-10454441

Let's get this right a life murder penalty for an accident but a less than manslaughter penalty for murder for the right demographic.

[Noremac]

Essentially life imprisonment equates to 15-20 years. This is a fairly good deterrent, but I fear the people likely to commit a dangerous driving offence probably aren't the type of people to really follow the news and even less likely to change their actions based on what they see or read.

[peirre]

does it have the inmates name on the goodie bag,if so itd be tempting to add a dash of arsenic to a monsters tuck

iirc yes it does have their name on the till receipt sealed in the bag. How else would they be able to distinguish who’s is who’s?
I was sometimes asked to help the distribution staff dish out the orders, but unless it was someone who was friendly (which was rare) generally I refused, and if they persisted in trying to get me to help I tended to mention to the prison officer who was overseeing it that I wasn’t security cleared, and they’ed kick me out of room & go sit back in the cab.
As for infamous cons, I only remember the women know as Mrs Canoe who was in Askham Bryan (open prison) near York, her day job was at the Iceland store in town, and when she was called forward to get her stuff the PO would sing “row, row ya boat” to her.


Generally The smart arse cons soon learned how to flip the lid off a tub of margarine inside a sealed bag and slip a pouch of tobacco inside and put the lid back on, then claim that there’s a shortage in their order, however the distribution staff also learned how to flip the lid off and reveal the hidden tobacco without breaking the sealed bag, which resulted in the con getting put on report and have the canteen confiscated

[Acorn]

The life sentence is the headline, the real concern is imprisonment for causing serious injury by driving without due care & attention. Serious injury has a quite low threshold such as breakages or a precautionary overnight in hospital, and due care also has a very low threshold. That's what should be really waking folks up as to the consequences.

The real concern is that thresholds and definitions are being manipulated turning accidental unintended death and injury into the types of penalties imposed for intentional.For obvious politically motivated reasons to intimidate drivers off the roads.
To the point where physical attacks resulting in death and injury have been given less than life sentences and reduced sentences because intent wasn't proven.

The classifications for 'serious' injury has been in place for years, as has the level for careless driving. The consequences has rarely been considered.
For some, it needs to be a real wake up call to think about how they have always driven, and so far been lucky. Driving up the chuff of the veh ahead may help slip streaming, may have all sorts of perceived benefits, but the driver can't have a clear view of the road ahead ..... that, in anyone's books is a starter for poor driving, or as the law describes it, careless driving.

The 'intent ' about driving was removed many years ago, because that is not relevant, the word to think about now is careless. No one goes out intent on having a collision, and if they did and said as much then there are other offences that come into play. Drivers would bro well to ask themselves, 'if there was an impact, would someone see that I was careless in anyway? whether that was going too quick for the conditions, too close to take avoiding action (remember the good old 2 second rule), braking/turning/ other too late, and so forth.

[Carryfast]

The life sentence is the headline, the real concern is imprisonment for causing serious injury by driving without due care & attention. Serious injury has a quite low threshold such as breakages or a precautionary overnight in hospital, and due care also has a very low threshold. That's what should be really waking folks up as to the consequences.

The real concern is that thresholds and definitions are being manipulated turning accidental unintended death and injury into the types of penalties imposed for intentional.For obvious politically motivated reasons to intimidate drivers off the roads.
To the point where physical attacks resulting in death and injury have been given less than life sentences and reduced sentences because intent wasn't proven.

The classifications for 'serious' injury has been in place for years, as has the level for careless driving. The consequences has rarely been considered.
For some, it needs to be a real wake up call to think about how they have always driven, and so far been lucky. Driving up the chuff of the veh ahead may help slip streaming, may have all sorts of perceived benefits, but the driver can't have a clear view of the road ahead ..... that, in anyone's books is a starter for poor driving, or as the law describes it, careless driving.

The 'intent ' about driving was removed many years ago, because that is not relevant, the word to think about now is careless. No one goes out intent on having a collision, and if they did and said as much then there are other offences that come into play. Drivers would bro well to ask themselves, 'if there was an impact, would someone see that I was careless in anyway? whether that was going too quick for the conditions, too close to take avoiding action (remember the good old 2 second rule), braking/turning/ other too late, and so forth.

If the definition of intent doesn't apply to drivers that means drivers are not being treated as equal under the law.
It's being applied in a discriminatory way effectively making all fatal road accidents an act of murder subject to the same penalty as murder.
As opposed to a violent attacker getting a lesser sentence because death wasn't proved as being intentional.
As I said a politically motivated injustice with the intention of intimidating drivers of motor vehicles off the road.

[Carryfast]

Essentially life imprisonment equates to 15-20 years. This is a fairly good deterrent, but I fear the people likely to commit a dangerous driving offence probably aren't the type of people to really follow the news and even less likely to change their actions based on what they see or read.

The fact is those types of sentence are reserved for fatality and injury where intent has been shown.
Ironically I'd support offering any such convict the choice of the death penalty on humane grounds I'd certainly prefer that to being given a life sentence for a bleedin traffic accident.
That's the reality of this Draconian and stupid politically motivated witch hunt.

[Macski]

There are people who deserve life sentances, especially these running from the police

Yeah but you know you're getting tired before you get to that point..

Yep by the end of the week!

The hours drivers work really needs to be looked at, the number of night they are allowed to spend in the back of a cab also needs to be considered.

Where is the H+S executive, RoSPA and other bodies, making sure drivers wear a high viz!

[Acorn]

The life sentence is the headline, the real concern is imprisonment for causing serious injury by driving without due care & attention. Serious injury has a quite low threshold such as breakages or a precautionary overnight in hospital, and due care also has a very low threshold. That's what should be really waking folks up as to the consequences.

The real concern is that thresholds and definitions are being manipulated turning accidental unintended death and injury into the types of penalties imposed for intentional.For obvious politically motivated reasons to intimidate drivers off the roads.
To the point where physical attacks resulting in death and injury have been given less than life sentences and reduced sentences because intent wasn't proven.

The classifications for 'serious' injury has been in place for years, as has the level for careless driving. The consequences has rarely been considered.
For some, it needs to be a real wake up call to think about how they have always driven, and so far been lucky. Driving up the chuff of the veh ahead may help slip streaming, may have all sorts of perceived benefits, but the driver can't have a clear view of the road ahead ..... that, in anyone's books is a starter for poor driving, or as the law describes it, careless driving.

The 'intent ' about driving was removed many years ago, because that is not relevant, the word to think about now is careless. No one goes out intent on having a collision, and if they did and said as much then there are other offences that come into play. Drivers would bro well to ask themselves, 'if there was an impact, would someone see that I was careless in anyway? whether that was going too quick for the conditions, too close to take avoiding action (remember the good old 2 second rule), braking/turning/ other too late, and so forth.

If the definition of intent doesn't apply to drivers that means drivers are not being treated as equal under the law.
It's being applied in a discriminatory way effectively making all fatal road accidents an act of murder subject to the same penalty as murder.
As opposed to a violent attacker getting a lesser sentence because death wasn't proved as being intentional.
As I said a politically motivated injustice with the intention of intimidating drivers of motor vehicles off the road.

Have a look at the legislation, very few offences need intent, sticking with speeding - the offence is there regards less of driver's intent to speed or intent to keep within the limit, simply going over the prescribed limit is sufficient. It has nothing to do with politics.
In this case, the top elf injury to be 'serious' is relatively small, and folks need to be aware of that, as well as carelessness is a very low threshold. Both things have been around for a very long time, and neither of them are politics.

[Carryfast]

Have a look at the legislation, very few offences need intent, sticking with speeding - the offence is there regards less of driver's intent to speed or intent to keep within the limit, simply going over the prescribed limit is sufficient. It has nothing to do with politics.
In this case, the top elf injury to be 'serious' is relatively small, and folks need to be aware of that, as well as carelessness is a very low threshold. Both things have been around for a very long time, and neither of them are politics.

It's about penalties not offences.
Exactly what other type of offence carries a life tariff other than murder or GBH with intent ?.
As for speeding, limits which have been established for decades are now being artificially reduced for political reasons to disincentive road use.Just like the idea of attaching a murder penalty to the results of a road traffic accident.

[lancpudn]

There is another piece about it in 'The Transport Network' saying Transport firms should mark August 28th on their calenders. https://www.transport-network.co.uk/Tra ... dars/17743

"There are wider considerations for the haulage industry generally, including the impact this will have on the ability to attract new drivers when the consequences for occupational mistakes are now far more severe. At a time when operators are looking to make the job more attractive, legislators have turned the screw another notch tighter."

[the maoster]

I have no problem whatsoever with drivers who kill others through dangerous or reckless driving receiving punitive sentences. Too many people have a blasé attitude towards driving and mistakenly consider their vehicle to be some kind of suit of armour within which they can do whatever TF they want.The police are only policing the roads in a reactive as opposed to a proactive manner so something needs to change pretty damn quickly.

The simple truth is that if you want to drive a vehicle, any vehicle on a public highway you need to display 100% concentration for 100.% of the time. I’m sure I’m not alone here but if I do 8,9,or 10 hours driving then I’m exhausted. Not physically, but mentally because of the sheer concentration required to avoid killing wuckfits everywhere.

[Carryfast]

I have no problem whatsoever with drivers who kill others through dangerous or reckless driving receiving punitive sentences. Too many people have a blasé attitude towards driving and mistakenly consider their vehicle to be some kind of suit of armour within which they can do whatever TF they want.The police are only policing the roads in a reactive as opposed to a proactive manner so something needs to change pretty damn quickly.

It's clear that the law has been deliberately downgrading the penalties already available to it in many of the worst cases.
To create the pretext and excuse for this imposition of what is effectively a murder penalty just for a mistake.
Be careful what you wish for the next time that wuckfit might be a crash for cash scammer/s stitching you up like a kipper for a fatal crash which they've deliberately staged and caused.

[the maoster]

Clear to you maybe