Sorry if this has been talked to death somewhere on here, but I can’t seem to find anything definitive using the search function.
The situation is this:
Towing a 3500kg trailer with a 4x4 (Range Rover TDv8, 2800kg ish kerb, 3500kg towing weight)
For other peoples goods (so hire and reward)
I know I’ll need a tacho, but do I need an operators licence?
Is it exempt?
There’s conflicting information out there stating dual purpose vehicles are exempt but must be under 2040kg empty. But then 4x4’s are passenger vehicles. There’s even guidance that specifically lists 4x4’s (explicitly land rovers) as exempt but doesn’t ref. the weight.
From what I can tell, if its not exempt - most operators doing similar running a 4x4 seem to just ignore it. Whats the reality?
-If you look at the actual legislation it states 2040kg, but it was written in 1986 and a modern (heavier) 4x4 is within the spirit of this legislation and significantly safer towing.
-If you look at DVSA - on multiple guides/documents they don’t mention the weight only 4x4s like land rovers towing are exempt. They do mention it in one guide I’ve found.
It’s all very well and good someone saying here ‘yes its exempt’ but what’s the reality, legally its not so are the DVSA turning a blind eye? Perhaps they’re not, has anyone heard of someone getting into hot water for it?
I couldn’t get a straight answer out of the DVSA last year, they basically said their interpretation of it would be under 2040kg unloaded but didn’t address the contradiction re: Land Rovers (and similar) - in that any on sale suitable for towing are over this. They said it would need to be tried in a court of law and was just their interpretation - aren’t they supposed to be definitive about this■■?
Land Rover is just a generic name and as you mention, your RR is quite a bit heavier than the traditional Land Rover 90/110! No the legislation has not changed and the definition remains the same - ie the 2040Kgs.
So, here is the better question that may help you answer your own questions. Why or how can you demonstrate that you do not need an O licence?
Don’t forget quite a few of these combinations may have exemptions other than the weight.
Whether you choose to get one or not is the next question and only you can answer that?
For my money, on the face of it, the set up does fall within requiring Standard National O licence.
Acorn:
Land Rover is just a generic name and as you mention, your RR is quite a bit heavier than the traditional Land Rover 90/110! No the legislation has not changed and the definition remains the same - ie the 2040Kgs.
So, here is the better question that may help you answer your own questions. Why or how can you demonstrate that you do not need an O licence?
Don’t forget quite a few of these combinations may have exemptions other than the weight.
Whether you choose to get one or not is the next question and only you can answer that?
For my money, on the face of it, the set up does fall within requiring Standard National O licence.
Thank you for the input, aside from vehicle choice I would need a Standard National O Licence.
Its covered vehicle transport.
The alternative is to run something like an Isuzu DMax, but running such a light tow vehicle just to skirt the outdated rule (at the detriment of safety) does not sit well with me.
Given this is basically a start up (although I’m already correctly insured thanks to a previous business, and will be renewing the policy) needing to go to an O Licence from day 1 is prohibitive due to the £8000 (ish) funds available requirement and transport manager. I will also be inspecting/maintaining the vehicle every 6 weeks but do not wish to be tied into a contract as I do most of the maintenance myself. Its a vehicle that lives on my driveway, with the trailer parked on a farm.
If I jump through the necessary hoops to start I do not see much of a competitive advantage to justify the costs/commitment - unless I’m being overly pessimistic.
It’s clearly a piece of legislation which needs amending, does anyone know if anything is being done about this?
crosseyedlion:
It’s clearly a piece of legislation which needs amending, does anyone know if anything is being done about this?
Why do you think it needs amending? You’re doing Hire or Reward and therefore competing with companies who do have an O-licence. The idea of the regulations is to create a level playing field for competing firms. Your “competitive advantage” as you describe it is precisely what the regulations are seeking to prevent.
The reality of getting caught will be highly significant, here’s a link to a very experienced transport-specialist solicitor telling you how it is. christabelhallas.co.uk/topi … also%20run
crosseyedlion:
It’s clearly a piece of legislation which needs amending, does anyone know if anything is being done about this?
Why do you think it needs amending? You’re doing Hire or Reward and therefore competing with companies who do have an O-licence. The idea of the regulations is to create a level playing field for competing firms. Your “competitive advantage” as you describe it is precisely what the regulations are seeking to prevent.
The reality of getting caught will be highly significant, here’s a link to a very experienced transport-specialist solicitor telling you how it is. christabelhallas.co.uk/topi … also%20run
Because the legislation was written to allow the use case with the vehicles that now fall foul of the 2040kg rule. At the time weights where much lower. The spirit of the law was to allow Land Rovers and similar style vehicles. The 2040kg limit does not fit with any current drivers licencing definitions. Most dual cab trucks also fall foul of this now, even though the definition was written to encompass them.
I cannot park an O/L licenced vehicle on my driveway and use it as a normal car. The exemption is there for a reason.
Its not really affecting a level playing field, its forcing operators to run less safely than otherwise with borderline overloaded beavertail trucks or lightweight trucks. The O/L requirements are unsuitable for someone running a heavy SUV which also acts as a passenger car vs. a heavy commercial vehicle.
No need to contract you 4x4 at 6 week intervals, there are other self maintenance options that reflect the type of vehicle and operations it does.
Not sure the logic is right to say the rules are outdated. As it stands a typical veh over 3.5t needs an O licence, why does the use of an oversized “car” and trailer that exceeds 3.5 t deserve to be exempt in the world if hire & reward business. Interested in the OPs reasoning?
There is a simplified set up for upto 3. 5t O licences coming in, it’s to do with EU so not needed for domestic only, but it’s IMHO a far better system for small stuff & no need for a transport manager for a few yrs if you meets the requirements.
I really don’t see how anyone is being forced to ‘use a less safe vehicle’; they are choosing to do so. This ‘competitive advantage’ argument so often put about isn’t offering a better service, or versatility, it is about undercutting others in the same line of business in the hope of getting their work. Rarely is it a totally new venture for the prospective customer because a different need has arisen.
cav551:
I really don’t see how anyone is being forced to ‘use a less safe vehicle’; they are choosing to do so. This ‘competitive advantage’ argument so often put about isn’t offering a better service, or versatility, it is about undercutting others in the same line of business in the hope of getting their work. Rarely is it a totally new venture for the prospective customer because a different need has arisen.
cav551:
I really don’t see how anyone is being forced to ‘use a less safe vehicle’; they are choosing to do so. This ‘competitive advantage’ argument so often put about isn’t offering a better service, or versatility, it is about undercutting others in the same line of business in the hope of getting their work. Rarely is it a totally new venture for the prospective customer because a different need has arisen.
It is less safe because a pickup truck like an Isuzu D-Max would be compliant as a dual purpose vehicle where a Range Rover won’t although it is indeed a better and safer tow vehicle. There is no competitive advantage to the Range Rover over the pickup, if anything a disadvantage as the Range Rover will be much costlier to maintain.
To the OP you’d be better with an Isuzu D-Max or similar for commercial towing Range Rovers although very nice will need a lot more work on them. Also tacho install will be costlier as most pickups now tacho ready.
Towing vehicle too light? Why not put weights in it for stability and take weight off when empty?
Use water containers so weight can be shed off if easily by emptying them, and refilling when needed. Collapsible containers can be stored in smaller space than rigid jerry cans.
Franglais:
Towing vehicle too light? Why not put weights in it for stability and take weight off when empty?
Use water containers so weight can be shed off if easily by emptying them, and refilling when needed. Collapsible containers can be stored in smaller space than rigid jerry cans.
The trouble with pickups, even though manufactures state 3500kg towing weight, the vehicles dont have enough train weight to allow a loaded pickup and a full weight trailer. Some models of pickup can only have a couple of hundred kgs payload if looking to tow full weight.
Franglais:
Towing vehicle too light? Why not put weights in it for stability and take weight off when empty?
Use water containers so weight can be shed off if easily by emptying them, and refilling when needed. Collapsible containers can be stored in smaller space than rigid jerry cans.
Bit of weight in the double cab bit seems to be most beneficial but not a necessity. I’ve towed Moffetts that weigh a ton more than the pickup, before the trailer weight, all over the country with an Isuzu D Max and it’s perfectly ok. Main complaint would be on a few hills you could get out and walk quicker.
I would say it’s more stable and stops better than a Discovery 2 used to but would admit Discovery 3+ and Range Rover Sport are much better on ride stability and stopping before you get on to the much higher level of driver comfort.
My view is RRs and Discos are great as cars you might want to occasionally tow with for a business but not suited to being a full time commercial business tow vehicle you might want to occasionally use as a car.
Franglais:
My view is RRs and Discos are great as cars you might want to occasionally tow with for a business but not suited to being a full time commercial business tow vehicle you might want to occasionally use as a car.
I know somebody with a Disco 3 used for business with over 850k miles on it.
