BEST 'ERGO' ?

[newmercman]

Wow a sensible comment from Geoffrey

Well almost......The Granada was built in..... GERMANY :lol::lol:

Only from the late 1970's on before that they were built seperately for the UK and European markets in Dagenham and Cologne .

Which proves my point about ze Germans building better cars

[bma.finland]

1.8 Litre Zafira.

You won't pull driving one of those Geoffrey, the people carrier is the ultimate vagina repellent

The check out girls don't generally see what car you're using to collect the shopping with and all the rest in the car park are usually old married housewives.While the Jag is generally travelling too fast for anyone to even notice it.

on a wrecker

[Carryfast]

Wow a sensible comment from Geoffrey

Well almost......The Granada was built in..... GERMANY :lol::lol:

Only from the late 1970's on before that they were built seperately for the UK and European markets in Dagenham and Cologne .

Which proves my point about ze Germans building better cars

Or proves mine that the Brits were stitched up to keep ze Germans happy depending on point of view.

http://www.rscapris.com/RS3100Info.html

http://www.rscapris.com/RS2600Info.html

[newmercman]

I was amused by your earlier reference to goose stepping, those RS Capris are a bit tasty too, so you're not completely off your nut, it's a close thing though

[VALKYRIE]

Best Ergomatic Cabbed-Lorry Model? PART 23.Page 37.TRUCKNETUK.

AEC SUPER MANDATOR V8 3VTG6RGAE 090 Mk1 High Tower Project-Concept-Prototype 6x4 Tractive Unit.

Ramone.

VALKYRIE replies:-
I understand what you mean,but Graham Edge confirms what I've said in my POST
22,page 34,in regard to it's cab,in that it was well-appointed and I've seen photographs of
the interior of this cab,because they are in Graham's informative AEC MANDATOR V8 Book,a copy
of which I recently bought on Amazon UK.The cab had Bostrum seating as well.
Some prototype motor vehicle models did actually signal the go-ahead to motor vehicle
manufacturers to actually go in to production of whatever motor vehicle(s) that had been
prototyped.
But,as you say,the AEC Super Mandator V8 3VTG,unfortunatly,never went in to production.

Carryfast.
YEARS AHEAD OF THE BRITISH MOTOR INDUSTRY.
VALKYRIE replies:-
You will discover,that in some respects,German and British engineering in fact
mirrored and kept up with each other,while in some other respects one of these countries was well
ahead of the other Furthermore,the engineering of other countries should not be overlooked,and
I'm placing emphasis on motor vehicle engineering in the case of America,France,Czechoslovakia,
and Italy - plus Germany It is accepted by motoring writers and historians that the motorcars
produced in these countries in the 1930s and 1940s were generally more advanced than British
motorcars,and in fact certain innovations,such as hydraulic brakes,synchromesh transmission,the
electric starter motor,rubber-mounted engines - floating power,power assisted steering,motor
air conditioning,car radio,panoramic windscreens,first practical air suspension,automatic
transmission,rotary gasoline engine,and so on were all invented by the American motor industry
The vast majority of the above innovations were also incorporated in to the motor vehicles made
and designed in other countries,such as Great Britain,France,Germany,Italy,Sweden,etc


ADVANCED - EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS - AND RETARDED - BRITISH.
In the styling department,the British-designed and built streamlined Flying Standard motorcar,QV
below,with it's Airline fastback was certainly modern and even advanced over certain other
British motorcars of the period But technical and mechanical-wise,in common with many other
British motorcars,it lagged behind many European and American motorcars ,many of which had
independent front suspension,overhead valves and overhead camshaft engines,hydraulic
brakes,unitary construction,backbone chassis frames,advanced aerodynamics,independent rear
supension,and so on
This Standard Flying 20 had NONE of those features! :It had a side valve engine,front and rear
beam axles,front and rear elliptic springs,Bendix cable-operated brakes,seperate chassis frame and body,etc This motorcar in common with other British motorcars was typical of retarded British motorcar design in the 1930s These mainly mass-produced motorcars did very good jobs for their owners it must be said Signs of technical progress became apparent when Standard offered IFS on some of it's models in 1939

Aeroplane designer,Edmund Rumpler,of Austria,turned his attention to designing an advanced
aerodynamic motorcar,and the following information is from this website :-

http://jalopnik.com/223396/know-thy-ger ... ry-tugboat

"Lady and gentlemen, we present for your viewing pleasure, a creation of Edmund Rumpler. This
mid-engined mechanical marvel, the product of wartime aviation experience and sheer Germanness ,
featured a W6 engine long before Volkswagen began fusing Vs together. Winglets, a teardrop-shaped
cabin and body, and that gnarly center headlight, somehow conspire to produce a super-slippery
drag coefficient. When the boys at V-Dub pulled one out of the Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin in
1979 and ran it through their wind tunnel, the Tropfenwagen returned an astonishing figure of
0.27 Cd. (They wouldn't be able to create a peoples' coefficient that low until the 1988 Passat.)
Keep in mind, Rumpler's creation predated even the concept of a digital computer. Sadly, the high
point of the Topfenwagen's life was when a couple of them were torched for fun in the famous 1927
Fritz Lang movie, Metropolis. Only two remain in German Museums, where I'm sure they're kept
company by other vacky but precise Deutchland flotsam."
This motorcar also has independent rear suspension

RUMPLER Tropfenwagen Aerodynamic Motorcar,designed and manufactured by Dr.Edmund Rumpler in
Berlin,in 1921.The world's first production aerodynamic motorcar :-




But the above Rumpler of 1921 was still in some respects,more techically advanced than the 1936
Flying Standard,fifteen years it's junior!!! .......:-

STANDARD FLYING 20 4-DOOR 6-LIGHT FASTBACK STREAMLINED MOTORCAR,1936.Beautiful :-



Automotive Historian,Michael Sedgwick said that Great Britain,motorcar-design wise,was more
technically isolated from the rest of the world than at any other time in the history of the
motorcar.And "The ordinary British motorcar was lacking in inspiration."

Automotive Historian,Johnathan Wood,blames this situation on a poor class-ridden British
education system ,compared to a superior German social class-free education system that actually
inspired people to became engineers and scientists ,where they studied in purpose-made technical
high schools These provided a technical education that was the finest in the world And,at the end
of their education,the students were honoured with Dr Ing - Doctor of Engineering degrees -
British engineers are not so honoured

Michael Sedgwick said the 1934 Berlin Motor Show was the most spectacular of the salons and
technically the brightest

The Europeans had other things in their favour:The Italians had Autostradas,the Germans had
Autobahns - differant national names for motorway systems,which in turn accelerated the
development of high performance motor vehicles with advanced aerodynamics - and so did Grand
Prix Motor Racing

The Germans dominated Grand Prix motor racing of the 1930s with their victorious and magnificent
Silver Arrow Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union Grand Prix Motor Racing Motorcars

The Germans also dominated Formula One Grand Prix Motor Racing for a period in the 1950s

One of the all time British great Motor Racing Drivers,Sir Stirling Moss,famously won the
legendary Mille Miglia Gran Turismo (Grand Touring) Sports Motorcar Motor Race in 1955 ,in a
magnificent Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR,No.722 -
MERCEDES-BENZ 300 SLR OPEN GRAN TURISMO -GRAND TOURING-GT SPORTS MOTORCAR,No.722,driven by the legendary Sir Stirling Moss,navigated
by Denis Jenkinson - they won the 1955 Mille Miglia - and at an all time record speed! :-




AUTO UNION C-TYPE SILVER ARROW GRAND PRIX MOTOR RACING MOTORCAR,1936:-



MERCEDES-BENZ W125 SILVER ARROW GRAND PRIX MOTOR RACING MOTORCAR:-



Hungarian engineer,Paul Jaray,and Dutch engineer,John Joop "Jan" Tjaarda Van Sterkenburg
led the way in motor vehicle aerodynamics,and their designs were major influences on many of
the world's motor vehicle manufacturers,including Chrysler,Volvo,Volkswagen,Audi,Adler,Ford,
Peugeot,Pierce-Arrow,Cadillac,Singer,Hansa,Maybach,Voisin,Steyr,Toyota,Tatra,etc.In fact some of
these motorcar makers had to pay royalties to Jaray!

John Joop "Jan" Tjaarda Van Sterkenburg came out with several aerodynamic motorcar designs,
including the Lincoln Zephyr V12 Motorcar successful ,slinky smooth and beautiful streamliner-
LINCOLN ZEPHYR V12 4-DOOR 6-LIGHT AERODYNAMIC MOTORCAR,1936:-



The most famous aerodynamic motorcar model in the world:-The Volkswagen Beetle

The best selling motorcar in the world:-The Volkswagen Beetle

BEATLES.The most famous Volkswagen Beetle in the World - LMW 281F,the white Volkswagen Beetle
Motorcar on the front cover of the ABBEY ROAD Album of THE BEATLES :-



The Volkswagen Beetle Motorcar,LMW 281F has become part of the interesting,but very suspect,
the PAUL IS DEAD fantasy-rumour,which is actually a Beatles in-joke :-
BEATLES.VOLKSWAGEN BEETLE MOTORCAR,LMW 281F = Linda McCartney Weeps,28 years old if Paul had
lived.Paul Is Dead fantasy :-



The greatest,biggest and most successful popular-pop music group-band in the world to date:THE
BEATLES - John,Ringo,Paul and George during the Abbey Road Album cover photographic session,
on Friday morning,8th August,1969,Ringo and Paul having some fun with the photographer:Paul's
wife,Linda :-



MORE GERMAN AND BRITISH INVENTIONS.......AND ONE DUTCH.

Cornish engineer,Richard Trevithick,invented the high pressure steam engine in 1800.

The diesel engine was invented by Rudolph Diesel in 1893.

First disc brakes:Invented by British engineer and motorcar maker,Frederick William Lanchester,
Hon FRAES FRS,in 1902.

First four wheel drive ROAD vehicle was the British-built Fowler traction engine in 1880.

The following three paragraphs of information comes from this website:-
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/who.html

First four wheel drive MOTOR vehicle was designed by Ferdinand Porsche (yes, the founder of
Porsche motorcars) for the Austrian lorry manufacturer Jacob Lohner in 1900.The first motor
vehicle in the history of four wheel drive had electric hub motors on each wheel - the engine
powered a generator for power supply

First mechanical four wheel drive (transfer case, drive shafts etc.) for MOTOR vehicles was built
by the Dutch company Jacobus Spyker in 1902.

First four wheel drive lorry:Invented by Mercedes-Benz in 1903,although in those days the company
traded as just Mercedes - It became Mercedes-Benz in 1926.
MERCEDES-BENZ.MERCEDES DERNBURG FOUR WHEEL DRIVE ALL WHEEL STEER LORRY.1907:-



From WIKIPEDIA:-
1923: The first lorry with pre-chamber diesel engine made by MAN and Benz. Daimler-Motoren-
Gesellschaft testing the first air-injection diesel-engined lorry.
1927: First lorry injection pump and injection nozzles of Bosch. First passenger motorcar
prototype of Stoewer.
To quote me from the Gardner Engines Thread:-"Gingerfold.According to both Pat Kennett and Peter
Davies,it was in December 1924 that MAN produced the world's first direct injection diesel
engine,and this 5-litre 4-cylinder engine is regarded as the forerunner of the modern diesel
engine."
In the following reply:-
To quote Graham Edge from the Gardner Engine Thread,again:-"The Gardner L2 design was the first
commercially successful DIRECT INJECTION diesel engine that was used in road going vehicles."

________________________________________


SOME GERMAN AND BRITISH INVENTIONS PARALLELED EACH OTHER.

From this website:-
http://inventors.about.com/library/inve ... engine.htm

Dr. Hans Von Ohain and Sir Frank Whittle are both recognized as being the co-inventors of the jet
engine Each worked separately and knew nothing of the other's work. Hans Von Ohain is considered
the designer of the first operational turbojet engine. Frank Whittle was the first to register a
patent for the turbojet engine in 1930. Hans Von Ohain was granted a patent for his turbojet
engine in 1936. However, Hans Von Ohain's jet was the first to fly in 1939. Frank Whittle's jet
first flew in in 1941

JET ENGINE CO-INVENTORS -Great Britian's Sir Frank Whittle and Germany's Hans Von Ohain :-



Rudolf Kühnhold (1903—1992) was an experimental physicist who is often given credit for
initiating research that led to the Funkmessgerät (radio measuring device — radar) in Germany.
From 1933 to 1935 he developed most,if not all,of the major elements of radar

Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt, KCB, FRS, FRAeS (13 April 1892 — 5 December 1973) is considered
by many to be the "inventor of radar.Work did not begin on radar until 1935,and by then Germany
had a two-years lead.However,Great Britain did have one big advantage from 1940:-The Cavity
Magnetron was invented which enabled high power centrimetric radar,which gave the allied forces a
big advantage over the Germans,Italians and Japanese in World War Two

Both the British and the Germans invented WINDOW for jamming radar.

Both the British and the Germans invented bouncing bombs for blowing up dams.

____________________________________________________________________________

German rocket engineering was at least twenty years in advance of the rocket engineering of other
countries.

German aviation was also very advanced too:-Luftwaffe Advanced Aircraft Projects to 1945:
Fighters and Ground Attack Aircraft, Lippisch to Zeppelin v. 2 (Luftwaffe Secret Projects):-



And it is also wonderfully and sensationally claimed that German Nazi's had developed advanced
special flying machines - in other words FLYING SAUCERS! .......GREAT STUFF! :-

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/fe ... zi-flying-
saucers-capable-of-destroying-London-and-New-York.html

Hitler's Flying Saucers: A Guide to German Flying Discs of the Second World War book,available
from Amazon UK :-


A beautiful German Nazi Flying Saucer - UFO 1 :-



The above facts objectively show that British engineering was equal to German engineering in some
respects,ahead in a few others,but obviously behind the Germans,Europeans and Americans in some
of the other engineering endeavours - especially on the motor vehicle side

WIKIPEDIA.German Inventions.
They are in several catagories including:-

Transportation

Automobile Benz Velo Modern automobile (gasoline engine) by Karl Benz in 1885.[47]
First electric passenger train by Siemens
First regular electric tram service using pantographs or trolley poles, the Gross-Lichterfelde Tramway by Siemens
Otto engine by Nicolaus Otto
Diesel engine by Rudolf Diesel
[zb] engine by Felix [zb]
Modern lorry in 1896 by Gottlieb Daimler
Motorcycle in 1885 by Gottlieb Daimler and Wilhelm Maybach
Zeppelin (a type of rigid airship) by Ferdinand von Zeppelin in 1893.[48]
Rocket-powered aircraft by Fritz Stamer in 1928.
Air bag by Walter Linderer
World's first practical all-metal aeroplane: Junkers J 1
Jerrycan
Gyrocompass by Hermann Anschütz-Kaempfe
Defogger by Heinz Kunert
Krueger flap by Werner Krüger

BUT,to be fair,and it CANNOT BE DENIED,is the fact that the number of British inventions far outnumber German ones Nevertheless,it does not take away the magnificent achievements of the brilliant German engineers and scientists,including Dr.Wernher Von Braun,the Father of Rocket Science
_____________________________________________

Gingerfold.

THE WORLD'S MONEY IS NOW CONTROLLED AND MANIPULATED BY COMPUTERS.

I wonder if you know that the world's banks and financial institutions now employ computer programmers to programme computers These computers are programmed in such a way in order to make
more money - and to increase the value of money,shares,interests,etc - for whatever bank or
company these computers are working for Computers,not human beings,now make money transactions with each other :There one aim is to increase the amount of money for the company or bank that they are working for
Ever since the world's money has been controlled and manipulated by the computers,the world's
money supply and system has become more and more un-stable This situtation is graphically
dramatically portrayed in the following great novel :-

WIKIPEDIA:-
The Fear Index is a 2011 novel by British author Robert Harris. It is set in a period of roughly 24 hours from the 6 May 2010–the date of the British general election and the Flash Crash. It follows the interactions of a group of employees at Hoffmann Investment Technologies, a fictional hedge fund operating in Geneva.


The story begins as Dr Alex Hoffmann, an American expat living in Switzerland, and the founder of his eponymous hedge fund, is attacked in his home by an unknown assailant. The next morning he proceeds to his company, where his British CEO, Hugo Quarry, is pitching for a renewed investment from the firm's existing clients. They seek to utilise Hoffmann's genius with algorithms into a system, named VIXAL-4, which can provide sufficient data on the markets to generate successful hedges.

Over the course of the business day the situation becomes unstable, with VIXAL assuming a level of risk considered unsustainable by the human staff, and they strive to shut it down. As this happens Hoffmann also begins to suspect that he is losing his mind.

Reception [edit]

Writing in The Guardian, literary critic Mark Lawson called the novel gripping, and described it as 'a speedy read, [which] is the appropriate medium for a story in which many of the key events... take place in milliseconds'.[1] The Observer called it 'thoroughly enjoyable',[2] while Charles Moore in The Daily Telegraph wrote 'The Fear Index is a frightening book, of course, as, with its title, it intends. Harris has an excellent sense of pace...'[3]

Film [edit]It is planned to make a film of this novel.

THE FEAR INDEX,BY ROBERT HARRIS,a novel about how money is controlled and manipulated by computers - THEY ARE TAKING OVER :-



Robert Harris has written some very interesting novels,including ENIGMA,about British codebreakers breaking German Enigma Codes.Fascinating!
__________________________________________________________________


Maybe,some TRUCKNETUK Members have never heard of the CROSSLEY Motor Vehicle Marque,but it was
a relatively important marque from 1904 to 1958 - but the AEC - AVC = Associated Commercial
Vehicles group,of which Crossley was a member,unfortunately closed down the joint.......
Crossley Motors Ltd remained a dormant company until 1969 - more of which later on.......
The Gorton,Manchester-based Crossley marque is going to have the last say in this PART 23

CROSSLEY MARQUE COPTIC CROSS BADGE:-



BURNEY STREAMLINE MOTORCAR,designed by the R100 Airship designer,Sir Charles Dennistoun
Burney,and later taken up by Crossley Motors.1930-1933.It was made in St. Martin's Jam Factory on
the Cordwallis Industrial Estate,Maidenhead:-
BURNEY STREAMLINE MOTORCAR,RX 7014,PHOTOGRAPHED IN THE TRAFFIC IN LONDON,on Monday,15th
September,1930.......a wonderful period photograph :-




CROSSLEY STREAMLINE,REAR-ENGINED,STREAMLINED MOTORCAR,was the basic Burney Streamline design,but
with improvements and modifications,including a genuine and working front-mounted exposed radiator.1934 :-



CROSSLEY MANCUNIAN/CROSSLEY-MCT H33/30R 63-SEAT 6x4 DOUBLE DECKER OMNIBUS,Chassis No.91301,AJX 77,1932-1934.Manchester CT No.71,re-numbered 320 in 1937:-



CROSSLEY OIL ENGINES ADVERTISEMENT.Engines for motorcoaches,lorries and buses.Note the Leyland-style finned oil-cooler underneath the front of the engine:-


CROSSLEY MANCUNIAN/CROSSLEY H28/24R 52-SEAT STREAMLINER DOUBLE DECKER BUS,Chassis No.92239,CVR
753,November 1936.Manchester Corporation Transport Streamliner No.551:-



CROSSLEY BETA,DROPSIDE-BODIED,12-TON 6x2 OR 6x4 LORRY,BNE 610,1935:-



CROSSLEY IGL3 NORMAL CONTROL 6x4 STREAMLINED AIRFIELD FIRE CRASH TENDER FIRE ENGINE,GMF 697,Royal
Air Force,1937,one of 50 - they were painted red.Full front view:-



Rear offside view:The very attractive rear end styling reminds me so very much of my showman
friend George Thomas -G.T.- Tuby's magnificent AEC Matador 4x4 Showmans Road Locomotive,BHE 437,which had
very similar rear end styling! :-



CROSSLEY FORWARD CONTROL 6-TON,PILOT DROPSIDE-BODIED,4x2 LORRY PROTOTYPE OF 1950:-



CROSSLEY DD42/8/CROSSLEY H56R DOUBLE DECKER BUS,Chassis No.95908,HET 513.ROTHERHAM No.213,August
1953.The last genuine Crossley double decker bus to be built :-



CROSSLEY MOTORS LTD REVIVED IN 1969

Leyland National Company Limited was formed in 1969 in partnership between British Leyand and the
National Bus Company,to mass-produce the new Leyland National Single Decker Bus in a new purpose-built factory at Workington,Cumberland - now a Eddie Stobart lorry depot!
Since it was legally necessary to form an official company in regard to Leyland National bus production,and that the dormant Crossley Motors Ltd had a large authorised share capital that was needed for the company,it was cheaper to change the name of Crossley Motors Ltd than form a new company.So Crossley Motors Ltd became the Leyland National Company Ltd on Thursday,4th September,1969

The first production Leyland National was:-
LEYLAND NATIONAL 1151/2R/0202 B44D Integral Single Decker Bus,Chassis No.00101,TXJ 507K.SELNEC PTE EX30 in April 1972,then Greater Manchester Transport 1330 in April 1974,Manchester Museum of Transport in October 1983.First production Leyland National :-



FOUR MORE PHOTOGRAPHS FROM CROSSLEY MOTORS' GOLDEN YEARS :-

CROSSLEY Q FWD 4x4 BALLAST ROAD LOCOMOTIVE,used for pulling a tar spreading machine mounted on a 4-wheeler drawbar trailer.World War Two British ex - WD military vehicle:-



CROSSLEY SD42/7/PLAXTON MB1 C33F MOTORCOACH,Chassis No.97797,Body No.257,FAW 334,March 1949.Albert Davies Transport Ltd,Acton,Burnell,Shrewsbury :-


CROSSLEY DD42/3/N.C.B. H30/26R 56-SEAT DOUBLE DECKER BUS,KWB 95,SHEFFIELD A FLEET No.595,January 1948.Pond Street Bus and Motorcoach Station,Saturday,21,2,1959 :-



CROSSLEY MANCUNIAN/CROSSLEY STREAMLINER FAIRGROUND BUS,Chassis No.92520,DVM 518.Showman W.Grant's ex- Manchester Corporation Transport H54-Seat Streamliner Double Decker Bus,No.627.1962 photograph by Fairground Enthusiast,Rowland Scott :-



VALKYRIE

[Jazzandy]

Tour de Force Valkyrie!

Hopefully this will put the slim grasp on history that some of our number seem to have into sharper focus!

[[zb] anorak]

Blimey! The man's just posted an entire book! Great stuff, Valkyrie, keep it going. My somewhat less comprehensive reply will use some of your sub-headings:

3VTG.
Yes, the interior was finished to a working standard. The vehicle was no more than a prototype, though. It still would have needed a full development programme, to get it into production. The Ergo had been in production for only 4 years when the 3VTG was finished- no company would do the the same huge job twice, within that short time. The obvious way to create a high-mounted, spacious cab with engine-cooling clearance was to mount the Ergo a foot or so higher, which is what Leyland did.

Engineers- German vs. English.
There has always been the opportunity, in GB, to study for a PhD in engineering. Only the most ardent academics bother, though. You can get any design or R&D job in GB with just a first degree, so that is what people do, to earn a wage. What is the point of struggling, academically and financially, for another five years, to get a junior position, possibly with a boss who has been promoted from the shopfloor, with no education at all? Your work would be wasted on him. There is some rule or other, in Germany, which demands that practising engineers have a doctorate, the same as quacks. British industry still regards education with superstitious fear. British "engineers" fix washing machines, that is the perception- washing machines designed by foreign engineers.

Motor cars
The design of European cars was way ahead of British ones, as early as the 1930s, as shown by the Volkswagen in your post. Having restored several of these, and Morris Minors, I can only conclude that those two cars were the work of the engineers mentioned in the previous paragraph!

Aerodynamics.
Those 1930s aero vehicles were not much more than styling fancies. How many of them had seen the inside of a wind tunnel? Did any of them boast measured drag coefficients? At least their designers were aware of the basic principles- when applied to lorry cabs, these suggest a raked ‘screen, generously-radiussed front corners, smooth panels with an absence of styling features and a shed wide enough to deflect air around the load. Which of the post-war lorries best accomodated these ideals? Maybe it was the Mk1 Atkinson! That lorry must have had the Ergo licked on aerodynamics. What was Michelotti thinking, putting a recessed windscreen on a vehicle expected to cruise at 60mph?

[Carryfast]

It seems obvious that the idea of ditching the ERGO in favour of the 3VTG wasn't one of choice it was one of do it or sink and the same applies in regards to ditching every other in house engine programme in favour of concentrating on development of the 700 fixed head and then the TL12,or possibly even just forgetting about in house engine production altogether,if Leyland were going to stand even the slightest chance of survival.Although the fact that even the Cummins powered SA 400 wasn't going to do the job suggests that the compromise of deliberately turning out underfunded underdeveloped designs like the ERGO and the Marathon finishing with the T45 which were just enough to keep debt levels down before closing down was always going to be the inevitable outcome in this case.

As for the Germans v the British.As I've said if British engineers weren't better than their German counterparts Western Europe would now still be part of the 3rd Reich guaranteed,just as Hitler said,to last at least 1,000 years.Those examples which VALKYRIE has posted can all be explained by that issue of money and funding being poured into design and production resources of the products in question which has always been a luxury that British engineers haven't had.Which of course taught the Brits to do more with less.Which is why we've always been in front when it mattered in everything from ship building to aircraft engineering.

No surprise to see that those like zb anorak use selective comparisons based on Morris Minors to make the opposite case.When facts like the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost,Land Speed record successes,Locomotive engineering like the A4 Pacifics,the Jaguar XK series of production cars and engines from 1948 on,and aircraft like the English Electric lightning which was in service within 15 years after the introduction of the German Me 262 after the Griffon Spit had sorted out Germany's best shot at piston aircraft in the FW 190 D9 ( not to mention the later Hawker Fury ) and then it was the Brits that built the TSR2,VC10 and the most important parts of Concorde,not ze Germans,say it all.

As for all the acedemic bs being the so called indentifying feature of what makes an engineer.If that was the case there would have been no such thing as the trades of engineering toolmakers,fitters,turners,millers and often many having the combination of all those trades etc etc,many of who had left school with no qualifications at all and learn't their trade on the shop floor without ever having needed any bs acedemic qualifications.The fact is highly qualified design engineers were/are just one of the essential combination of engineering disciplines which were/are needed to make things and in all those disciplines the Brits have often been some of the best there are.

Which is why we're all posting these arguments in English not German.

[marky]

Another thread bites the dust...

[kr79]

Could it be this 3vgt project was dropped as the t45 range was origanly envisiged to be launched around 1975 so rather than devolp a new cab for say 5 years production seemed less atractive than devoloping existing parts to come up with the marathon.

As for Germans been better engineers i wouldnt say thats true. But to say the allies win tge war as the brits were better engineers is ridiculous.

[newmercman]

Britain did not win the war, the Allied Forces won the war, even then Hitler gave them a big helping hand by deciding to take on Russia

To give credit to Germany it did manage rather well against the rest of the World when it came to the war. All the military equipment they used in that war was made in Germany, whereas the Allies had factories all over the world producing theirs, so to say the Germans were pretty good at making stuff would be quite reasonable

[VALKYRIE]

.
As for Germans been better engineers i wouldnt say thats true. But to say the allies win tge war as the brits were better engineers is ridiculous.

Best Ergomatic Cabbed-Lorry Model? PART 24.Page 37.TRUCKNETUK.

KR79 is quite right.World War Two was not won by Great Britain and it's Allies purely because our engineers
were supposed to be better engineers than German engineers - although the technology of Great Britain,
America,Canada and the rest of the allies did play a crucial role in the allied victory.
I would say the major factor or factors in our victory was because Germany and it Axis powers were 1.
Numerically out-numbered by the allies in manpower,i.e. soldiers,air staff,naval staff,etc,out-numbered in aeroplanes,ships,guns,tanks,bombs,bullets,military vehicles,etc. 2.And,partly because of this numerical un-balance,Germany was militarily,tactically and logistically out-manouvered by the allied forces.And 3.Hitler and
his high command,i.e. generals,field marshals,etc,some times made the wrong military decisions,including
starting the war too early - the Third Reich should have built up more military strength before going ahead
with military campaigns - had a fleet of long range bomber aeroplanes instead of mainly medium range ones,fighting battles on two fronts,i.e. the Russian campaign in the East and the campaign in the West,should have spent money on more conventional and cheaper to produce weapons and aeroplanes,rather than the
exotic and adventurous V1 Flying Bomb and V2 Rockets,and so on.
And all of the above reasons are probably why Great Britian and it's Allies -America,Canada,Australia,etc,
defeated Germany and it's Axis Powers in World War Two

VALKYRIE.

[Carryfast]

Could it be this 3vgt project was dropped as the t45 range was origanly envisiged to be launched around 1975 so rather than devolp a new cab for say 5 years production seemed less atractive than devoloping existing parts to come up with the marathon.

As for Germans been better engineers i wouldnt say thats true. But to say the allies win tge war as the brits were better engineers is ridiculous.

Just like the ERGO the T45 was already obsolete even by the standards of when it was introduced at least in terms of it's cab design and it's in house TL12 engine before the change to outsourced options.

As for British engineers as good as,if not better,at the very least.

So you're saying that the WW2 could have been won 'if' we hadn't introduced the idea of steam turbines in our war ships years before and hadn't managed to get ahead in radar technology and were still relying on reciprocating engines to go up against ships like the Bismark and to hunt down U Boats in the battle of the Atlantic and 'if' we didn't have aircraft like the Spitfire to maintain air superiority during the Battle of Britain and in Europe after D Day considering the abilities of the Me 109 and then FW 190 D9 being superior to just about every other allied aircraft type.

As for tanks the British Comet ( would have been ) a much better bet to face anything which the Germans had,for anyone unlucky enough to have to served in that type of warfare, than anything which the Americans turned out.That issue only not causing the defeat of the allied forces after D Day because the Germans ran out of 88 mm amour piercing ammunition before the allies ran out of unfortunate Sherman tank crews.( Just like in the case of Leyland years later it's development being delayed by the cash issue just as the Rolls Merlin would have been if Rolls hadn't been lucky enough to beg for the private investment to develop it ).Or if we hadn't had the Griffon Spit to keep the Me 109's and FW 190's away from the lame old Hawker Typhoons who's lack of performance was again a reflection of the lack of development cash compared to the later Tempest and Fury.

[Carryfast]

Britain did not win the war, the Allied Forces won the war, even then Hitler gave them a big helping hand by deciding to take on Russia

To give credit to Germany it did manage rather well against the rest of the World when it came to the war. All the military equipment they used in that war was made in Germany, whereas the Allies had factories all over the world producing theirs, so to say the Germans were pretty good at making stuff would be quite reasonable

The 'allied forces' weren't actually in the war in 1939-40 and at that time the Russians were actually on the side of the Germans.Which just leaves the question what if the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic had been lost and Germany had invaded Britain in 1940 and even if not 'if' the D Day invasion had failed and the allies were thrown back into the channel.In either case the issue of what the Russians were doing would have been irrelevant because we'd have either had Hitler in charge or Stalin.All of which would have been a real possibility if it hadn't have been for British Naval and air superiority and you wouldn't have had that superiority without having superior engineering.

As for VALKRIE's comments I'll let this and the comments by those who recognise the contribution which Britain's engineers have made have the last say in that regard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Qj8zfLbyc

[Jazzandy]

Is there any remote chance that we can keep to the thread subject?

All this Germany versus British stuff is absolutely fascinating but what in the name of all things sane has this got to do with the Ergomatic cab?

Another point - the stepped up cab a-l'Americaine was not really necessary at the time. What did Mercedes bring out round about 1973/74? The New Generation cab which was a lowline model very similar to the T45!!

[newmercman]

Is there any remote chance that we can keep to the thread subject?

All this Germany versus British stuff is absolutely fascinating but what in the name of all things sane has this got to do with the Ergomatic cab?

The thread wouldn't have got past three pages if it had remained on topic, this is just like a conversation, it starts off in one place then shoots off at tangents, sometimes returning to the original topic, sometimes not. You said yourself that some of the stuff discussed is absolutely fascinating and I completely agree, I also think we wouldn't have ever covered it if we'd stuck religiously to the Ergonomic Cab topic

This thread has had a lot of views and now stretches into 30odd pages, there's a lot of useful stuff within the posts, sure some people will find it doesn't conform to their idea of how a thread should run, but they're not being forced to read or participate in this one, can't see the harm in it myself

[bma.finland]

have we a different history in finland ,tought the britts go to war in september 1939 , of is it carryfast have been reading churhills speaks and lot of history but no in confused

[kr79]

Yes the british forces did hold of the invasion in 1940 due to better aircraft radar and better tactics from fighter command and churchills oratory helping motivate people.
But without hitler dropping a clanger by attacking russia then the USA getting involved theres no way the British could have held the Germans off in the long term. And certainly not mount an invasion back to the mainland.

[Bewick]

Here's a shot of Pope Geoffery the 1st of Leatherhead moving among his flock who are in the same Clinic

[ramone]

Here's a shot of Pope Geoffery the 1st of Leatherhead moving among his flock who are in the same Clinic

There`s some intelligence under that hat Dennis

[Bewick]

Here's a shot of Pope Geoffery the 1st of Leatherhead moving among his flock who are in the same Clinic

There`s some intelligence under that hat Dennis

Aye your dead right there "ramone" what that guy dosen't know you could write on the back of a stamp !! Cheers Dennis.

[ramone]

Here's a shot of Pope Geoffery the 1st of Leatherhead moving among his flock who are in the same Clinic

There`s some intelligence under that hat Dennis

Aye your dead right there "ramone" what that guy dosen't know you could write on the back of a stamp !! Cheers Dennis.

I bet there`s a V8 DD Turbo under that bonnet

[Bewick]

Here's a shot of Pope Geoffery the 1st of Leatherhead moving among his flock who are in the same Clinic

There`s some intelligence under that hat Dennis

Aye your dead right there "ramone" what that guy dosen't know you could write on the back of a stamp !! Cheers Dennis.

I bet there`s a V8 DD Turbo under that bonnet

How did you guess ?

[[zb] anorak]

Is there any remote chance that we can keep to the thread subject?

All this Germany versus British stuff is absolutely fascinating but what in the name of all things sane has this got to do with the Ergomatic cab?

Another point - the stepped up cab a-l'Americaine was not really necessary at the time. What did Mercedes bring out round about 1973/74? The New Generation cab which was a lowline model very similar to the T45!!

As I remember it, the NG looked diminutive because Mercedes' intention was to soften the visual impact of the lorry on the general public. Was it actually any less spacious inside, than the LP? How would the similarly-styled T45 stack up against a Marathon, in terms of useable space for the driver?

[Carryfast]

have we a different history in finland ,tought the britts go to war in september 1939 , of is it carryfast have been reading churhills speaks and lot of history but no in confused

That's what I said.Between 1939-41 Russia and America weren't really a factor from the point of view of fighting the Germans when it mattered to us.Russia at that time had a pact with Germany and Germany only turned on Russia after it had lost the Battle of Britain and then decided to concentrate it's efforts against Russia instead.

The fact is without the Spitfire we'd have lost the Battle of Britain in 1940 because the RAF's losses would have outweighed the Luftwaffe's losses.At which point the Germans would have invaded Britain with little if any chance of defeating the combined might of the Wehrmacht,Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe considering that the Royal Navy would have had no chance of stopping the invasion force v effective German air attack.In which case there could have been no involvement of the US and D Day invasion of France and Hitler would have won the War.Considering that Britain was the last surviving European staging post for any counter attack against the Germans.

While as I've said without maintaining naval and air superiority throughout the war we'd have lost the Battle of the Atlantic and the D Day landings would have failed anyway and there's no way that we'd have had that superiority without British engineering in the form of British naval and aircraft development throughout the war.In which case with Britain blockaded into submission and the allied invasion forces in Western Europe defeated,we'd probably just have had Stalin's lot in charge of Western Europe instead of Hitler's lot assuming the war between Russia and Germany had started and inevitably ended with Germany's defeat,or Britain's surrender to Germany if not.

As I've said the free world has a lot to thank British engineering for in which case back to the topic,as I've said,there's no way that the failure of Leyland and the uk manufacturing industry could be blamed on the country's workers considering what they'd proved being capable of.It was the bankers and politicians that did it by starving uk manufacturing of the cash needed to develop competitive products and to pay it's workforce and opening the economy to foreign competition,ironically in large part German competition.

[[zb] anorak]

As for all the acedemic bs being the so called indentifying feature of what makes an engineer.

Nothing you have said so far, in nearly 10,000 posts of dreary, stupid lies, has touched upon the single reason for British culture's inability to support a competitive manufacturing industry. This, the most cretinous statement you have ever made, provides the answer. It is perfect. Your work is done. You may be quiet, now.

[Carryfast]

Yes the british forces did hold of the invasion in 1940 due to better aircraft radar and better tactics from fighter command and churchills oratory helping motivate people.
But without hitler dropping a clanger by attacking russia then the USA getting involved theres no way the British could have held the Germans off in the long term. And certainly not mount an invasion back to the mainland.

Churchill knew all that regardless of what happened on the Eastern Front.However the fact is without the Spitfire and continuing development in naval and aircraft technology and manufacturing the Battle of Britain would have been lost and Britain would have been invaded and therefore US couldn't have got involved.While the combined loss of the battle of the atlantic and/or the failure of the D Day invasion of Europe would have had the same effect assuming that naval and air superiority hadn't been maintained throughout the war and that superiority in large part depended on British engineering and design.

[[zb] anorak]

Deaf ears.

[Carryfast]

As for all the acedemic bs being the so called indentifying feature of what makes an engineer.

Nothing you have said so far, in nearly 10,000 posts of dreary, stupid lies, has touched upon the single reason for British culture's inability to support a competitive manufacturing industry. This, the most cretinous statement you have ever made, provides the answer. It is perfect. Your work is done. You may be quiet, now.

So you're saying that no highly acedemically qualified design engineer has ever relied on the know how of the shop floor engineering trades which need no such levels of qualifications whatsoever to turn engineering drawings into reality.In which case your factory is going to be a bit short of such tradesmen if you're going to require them all to have the same acedemic qualifications as the firm's chief design engineer before you'll let them near a machine or a work bench.

[Retired Old Fart]

Here's a shot of Pope Geoffery the 1st of Leatherhead moving among his flock who are in the same Clinic

But he has got a very pretty flag!