Is there any drivers self employed as a sole trader?
Driving isn’t my main job. I was doing it as a back filler if I’m quiet on my other job.
My other job is construction so on CIS self employed . can I work a few days a week on agency self employed?
Yes, although some agancies won’t take you on as self employed, but most will. Some companies will not allow you to work for them self employed either although rules have recently changed I believe.
Although if you get work on a PAYE bases it there a problem?
Perhaps do some reading on IR35 regarding tax and NI contributions if working for an end-client off-payroll.
In any case, I have heard of drivers having to set up a limited company as opposed to just invoicing as a sole trader.
Johny5alive:
Is there any drivers self employed as a sole trader?
Driving isn’t my main job. I was doing it as a back filler if I’m quiet on my other job.
My other job is construction so on CIS self employed . can I work a few days a week on agency self employed?
Not any more. I packed it in when I saw the writing on the wall. HMRC tightened up on the IR35 so you basically can’t be. Agency will want you to be a Ltd Company to cover their backsides and you’ll find you’re restricted to where they’ll send you due to potential liability under IR35 so you’re likely to only be sent to the small crappy companies with low turnover, basically the arse of haulage, that pays the worst.
Even the last holdouts I know personally incliding the guy who bragged about paying just £2k in tax on a £40k income have given up on being self employed agency and gone PAYE because they spent more time being sat at home than at work and ended up no better off with the hourly rate than those on PAYE when you factor in holiday pay and employer pension,.
Depends who you’ll work for. Agency varies. But working fir the operator - the TC does not see how a driver can be self employed and drive unless they are owner driver. So if they do take you, what else will they dodge around?
Acorn:
Depends who you’ll work for. Agency varies. But working fir the operator - the TC does not see how a driver can be self employed and drive unless they are owner driver. So if they do take you, what else will they dodge around?
Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. Also working as an employee of your own Ltd Company is a completely different arrangement to being self employed. IR35 is the legislation that oversees the Ltd Company driver arrangement.
robbo99.:
Acorn:
Depends who you’ll work for. Agency varies. But working fir the operator - the TC does not see how a driver can be self employed and drive unless they are owner driver. So if they do take you, what else will they dodge around?Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. Also working as an employee of your own Ltd Company is a completely different arrangement to being self employed. IR35 is the legislation that oversees the Ltd Company driver arrangement.
Wrong.
Sand Fisher:
robbo99.:
Acorn:
Depends who you’ll work for. Agency varies. But working fir the operator - the TC does not see how a driver can be self employed and drive unless they are owner driver. So if they do take you, what else will they dodge around?Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. Also working as an employee of your own Ltd Company is a completely different arrangement to being self employed. IR35 is the legislation that oversees the Ltd Company driver arrangement.
Wrong.
Please elaborate, anyone can just put wrong.
robbo99.:
Sand Fisher:
robbo99.:
Acorn:
Depends who you’ll work for. Agency varies. But working fir the operator - the TC does not see how a driver can be self employed and drive unless they are owner driver. So if they do take you, what else will they dodge around?Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. Also working as an employee of your own Ltd Company is a completely different arrangement to being self employed. IR35 is the legislation that oversees the Ltd Company driver arrangement.
Wrong.
Please elaborate, anyone can just put wrong.
Short version (as I understand the objection): It is fairly well documented that TCs do not accept SE ODs working for someone else unless they tick all the correct boxes regarding being properly sub-contracted.
TCs don’t accept an SE OD working with the main contractor as if he was under the auspices of the main contractors TM and O-licence.
Also, If we assume the OD is his own TM, the TC will want to see a submission from the OD-TM regarding his breakdown of working hours for both positions, in order to determine that it will fit into the WTD/RTD 48 hour reference period average.
It’s a pity (now-former) TC Nick Denton didn’t stay with TN after his initial foray onto the boards, to provide some direct guidance on the massive misunderstandings prevalent on TN regarding what a TC can and can’t do.
Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. Also working as an employee of your own Ltd Company is a completely different arrangement to being self employed. IR35 is the legislation that oversees the Ltd Company driver arrangement.
[/quote]
Wrong.
[/quote]
Please elaborate, anyone can just put wrong.
[/quote]
Short version (as I understand the objection): It is fairly well documented that TCs do not accept SE ODs working for someone else unless they tick all the correct boxes regarding being properly sub-contracted.
TCs don’t accept an SE OD working with the main contractor as if he was under the auspices of the main contractors TM and O-licence.
Also, If we assume the OD is his own TM, the TC will want to see a submission from the OD-TM regarding his breakdown of working hours for both positions, in order to determine that it will fit into the WTD/RTD 48 hour reference period average.
It’s a pity (now-former) TC Nick Denton didn’t stay with TN after his initial foray onto the boards, to provide some direct guidance on the massive misunderstandings prevalent on TN regarding what a TC can and can’t do.
[/quote]
I’m not too sure what your point is. I am not disputing what criteria are set out for self employed owner drivers and their responsibilities to the Traffic Commissioner. I am referring to the thousands of drivers employed as a director of a PSC in the very recent past and incidentally wrongly referred to as self employed. Where on earth does the Traffic Commissioner have any say on that persons employment status or their tax status? That is HMRC’s problem. Check on Traffic Commissioner decisions online and let me know when you do find proof. As it is now a Ltd Co driver can work for an operator of a small company and not raise any eyebrows.
Zac_A:
Short version (as I understand the objection): It is fairly well documented that TCs do not accept SE ODs working for someone else unless they tick all the correct boxes regarding being properly sub-contracted.TCs don’t accept an SE OD working with the main contractor as if he was under the auspices of the main contractors TM and O-licence.
We’re not talking about owner drivers. We’re talking about self employed drivers, where you as a driver turn up to a company and drive their wagons just the same as an agency driver does. That has absolutely nothing to do with the Traffic Commissioner.
A test is whether the self employed person is placing theirself at financial risk for failure to deliver their services in a satisfactory manner.
Better tell the TC it has nothing to do with him/her, because it appears they think it has:
Since HMRC embarked on the process of encouraging other regulators to follow their lead, the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s guidance indicates that it is the latest regulator to fall into step with HMRC. The guidance, at para 37 Statutory Document No5 (entitled ‘Employees’) reflects the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s view that it will be ‘rare’ for a driver to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver.
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed? Secondly, any use of self-employed drivers who are not owner-drivers potentially opens up an argument that the O licence holder, by being in breach of the new guidance and facilitation a loss of revenue to HMRC, cannot be of ‘good repute’. Both of these issues could lead, ultimately, to the loss of an O licence.
Zac_A:
Better tell the TC it has nothing to do with him/her, because it appears they think it has:Since HMRC embarked on the process of encouraging other regulators to follow their lead, the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s guidance indicates that it is the latest regulator to fall into step with HMRC. The guidance, at para 37 Statutory Document No5 (entitled ‘Employees’) reflects the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s view that it will be ‘rare’ for a driver to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver.
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed? Secondly, any use of self-employed drivers who are not owner-drivers potentially opens up an argument that the O licence holder, by being in breach of the new guidance and facilitation a loss of revenue to HMRC, cannot be of ‘good repute’. Both of these issues could lead, ultimately, to the loss of an O licence.
So like I stated earlier, show me an instant where this is actually the case. This appears to be guidance from HMRC, rather strange HMRC have had the powers to deal with this issue in the private sector for over 20 years and until very recently have done nothing. I await some proof from Traffic Commissioner decisions.
robbo99.:
Zac_A:
Better tell the TC it has nothing to do with him/her, because it appears they think it has:Since HMRC embarked on the process of encouraging other regulators to follow their lead, the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s guidance indicates that it is the latest regulator to fall into step with HMRC. The guidance, at para 37 Statutory Document No5 (entitled ‘Employees’) reflects the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s view that it will be ‘rare’ for a driver to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver.
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed? Secondly, any use of self-employed drivers who are not owner-drivers potentially opens up an argument that the O licence holder, by being in breach of the new guidance and facilitation a loss of revenue to HMRC, cannot be of ‘good repute’. Both of these issues could lead, ultimately, to the loss of an O licence.
So like I stated earlier, show me an instant where this is actually the case. This appears to be guidance from HMRC, rather strange HMRC have had the powers to deal with this issue in the private sector for over 20 years and until very recently have done nothing. I await some proof from Traffic Commissioner decisions.
robbo99.:
robbo99.:
Zac_A:
Better tell the TC it has nothing to do with him/her, because it appears they think it has:Since HMRC embarked on the process of encouraging other regulators to follow their lead, the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s guidance indicates that it is the latest regulator to fall into step with HMRC. The guidance, at para 37 Statutory Document No5 (entitled ‘Employees’) reflects the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s view that it will be ‘rare’ for a driver to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver.
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed? Secondly, any use of self-employed drivers who are not owner-drivers potentially opens up an argument that the O licence holder, by being in breach of the new guidance and facilitation a loss of revenue to HMRC, cannot be of ‘good repute’. Both of these issues could lead, ultimately, to the loss of an O licence.
So like I stated earlier, show me an instant where this is actually the case. This appears to be guidance from HMRC, rather strange HMRC have had the powers to deal with this issue in the private sector for over 20 years and until very recently have done nothing. I await some proof from Traffic Commissioner decisions.
A Ltd Co driver employed by a PSC can quite legally work for an operator of a small company perfectly legally and that’s official from HMRC.
robbo99.:
robbo99.:
robbo99.:
Zac_A:
Better tell the TC it has nothing to do with him/her, because it appears they think it has:Since HMRC embarked on the process of encouraging other regulators to follow their lead, the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s guidance indicates that it is the latest regulator to fall into step with HMRC. The guidance, at para 37 Statutory Document No5 (entitled ‘Employees’) reflects the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s view that it will be ‘rare’ for a driver to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver.
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed? Secondly, any use of self-employed drivers who are not owner-drivers potentially opens up an argument that the O licence holder, by being in breach of the new guidance and facilitation a loss of revenue to HMRC, cannot be of ‘good repute’. Both of these issues could lead, ultimately, to the loss of an O licence.So like I stated earlier, show me an instant where this is actually the case. This appears to be guidance from HMRC, rather strange HMRC have had the powers to deal with this issue in the private sector for over 20 years and until very recently have done nothing. I await some proof from Traffic Commissioner decisions.
A Ltd Co driver employed by a PSC can quite legally work for an operator of a small company and that’s official from HMRC.
Like my previous post indicates, it is in Statutory Document No.5,
gov.uk/government/publicati … s#guidance
which makes it “from the OTC”, who are adopting HMRC guidelines into their purview.
Here’s a segment of SD5, just scroll down to section 1.7 in the link to see more of it, but I think this segment makes it fairly clear how companies can fall foul of the TC with LTD drivers.
Is there something in the A’s & D’s which specifically delineates the problem in a named example? I’m betting there is, but as I wasn’t hugely invested in the topic, this is enough confirmation for me. I know I would not want to be involved in any way in a test case which proved the TC will take action on this issue.
Employees
The First-Tier Tribunal (Tax) has considered the employment status of drivers. Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs (‘HMRC’) raised concerns that haulage operators were wrongly treating workers as self-employed or hiring workers through their own companies in ways that did not comply with tax laws. It is now well understood that it will be rare for someone to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver. HMRC is aware that some companies wrongly believe that anti-avoidance legislation does not apply and that HMRC cannot pursue workers, agents and their companies.
Regulation 13A of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 requires all agency workers, who sign up to an employment business after 6 April 2020, to be given a ‘Key Information Document’ which details, amongst other things, the name of the employment business. Agency workers are now also entitled to equal pay once they have satisfied the 12-week qualifying period.
HMRC has issued detailed guidance on employment status and has published a tool to help determine a worker’s employment status for tax purposes. Transport providers cannot claim a commercial advantage by claiming that labour-only drivers are not employees, just because they are engaged on a job-by-job basis with no guarantee of future work.
What is the point of posting tribunal decisions? These are all based on a case by case basis. Some you win some you lose. Are you aware of IR35? This, like I said is driven by HMRC, the rules changed not so long back regarding the use of Ltd co drivers by operators. HMRC, (not the Traffic Commissioner) call the shots and have clearly stated that as long as the operators company is classed as small, ie below a certain amount of employees and turnover then it is perfectly acceptable for Ltd co drivers to work in this way so how can the operator be on the wrong side of the TC?
Zac_A:
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed?
But that also applies to agency drivers, my employer is the agency, not the company that they send me to. I do work for the client I don’t work for the client. Yet that is apparently OK even though there’s no difference?