Ukraine [merged]

A
Russian invasion of Ukraine is “inevitable and imminent”, Commons Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood has said.

The Conservative MP made the claim in the wake of a massive cyber attack on Ukraine which left much of the country without heat, light and access to money.
Does anyone here drive to/through Ukraine?
Are we vulnerable to a massive cyber attack?
Will it affect the driver shortage?

To put my Devil’s Advocate hat on today:

Kiev are probably lying through their teeth to get NATO to back an aggressive invasion of East Ukraine, which is already in Russian hands, don’t forget…

I don’t reckon Russia has any motive to invade the West of the country, but would rather consolidate the hold they now have over the East.

West Ukraine is full of Europhile Russia-hating Liberals, whereas the East have already voted in their own referendum to return to Mother Russia, which Putin to his credit - immediately implemented. Putin is clearly not an enemy of the wider world’s Right nor any Brexiteer in this country, I’ll venture…

Putin is likely worried that a spin-doctored invasion by Kiev of his held East Ukrainian territory, especially the Crimea - would be justified by some kind of “Red False Flag Throwdown” such as a staged chemical attack, shooting down another West Europe airliner, or maybe even a “terror” attack on Kiev’s home ground by “Russian Seperatists” or perhaps a staged Cyber attack that actually never took place, but at least doesn’t kill as many of their own innocents as the first two options I’ve mention would (and did, in the case of MH17 in the past…)

So Putin moves troops not into East Ukraine, but to the border of Russia and the already-held territory of East Ukraine.
If Putin moves them further - That is NOT an invasion, but Kiev would have the rest of the world believe it IS of course.

If Kiev invades the long standing Russian naval base at Sevestopal, Crimea for example - is that Kiev aggression against Putin, or if Putin retaliates - is that Putin aggression against Kiev??

Common sense, hopefully will prevail here.

Kiev cannot go it alone. Lies and a lot of spin are clearly needed to justify that red paragraph above, and quite frankly - I don’t think NATO even with Dumbnuts Biden Backing - will go for such an obvious piece of “Borgia” politik from Kiev.

W T F ■■?

Ukraine is a strange country. It’s a bit like Belgium, which can’t decide if it is France or the Netherlands. Most folk living in eastern Ukraine don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing, speak Russian and insist they live in Russia.

Russia invading Ukraine has been inevitable for a long time, Russia’s fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

SWEDISH BLUE:
W T F ■■?

Best bump this to Bully’s… Not much driving content to be had on this topic, but I’ll stick this vid here to try and amend that.

I’ll venture that Putin seems to make a better world leader than he would a trucker… :stuck_out_tongue:

Harry Monk:
Ukraine is a strange country. It’s a bit like Belgium, which can’t decide if it is France or the Netherlands. Most folk living in eastern Ukraine don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing, speak Russian and insist they live in Russia.

Russia invading Ukraine has been inevitable for a long time, Russia’s fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

Russia invading West Ukraine would be like the British Regulars invading Scotland to remove Sturgeon from power, and install a Viceroy of Scotland instead.

Kiev’s people hate Putin, Autocrats, and other obvious right-wingers with a passion - Putin might be able to easily capture Kiev if he had a mind to, but he would never hold it, just as the Soviet Union were not able to dislodge Kiev from allying up with Hitler in WWII.

That Liberals pretty much everywhere, let alone in West Ukraine hate people like Putin, they clearly have something in common with the EU, but I’d suggest NOT with NATO.

American presidents, and with it their foreign policy - come and go.

The EU though?

Even when we don’t let it ■■■ anymore - it still won’t bloody go!

Winseer:
To put my Devil’s Advocate hat on today:

Kiev are probably lying through their teeth to get NATO to back an aggressive invasion of East Ukraine, which is already in Russian hands, don’t forget…

I don’t reckon Russia has any motive to invade the West of the country, but would rather consolidate the hold they now have over the East.

I guess Russia rightly sees it the same as we saw the Northern Ireland issue so it’s just a localised issue in which East Ukraine is off limits that we need to stay well out of.

However on the other hand it could just as likely be a small part of a much bigger move, which could theoretically see a joint Russian/NK/Pakistan/China and maybe even India move on the west.Possibly also involving simultaneous actions in the Pacific.
In which case we haven’t helped ourselves by sending surrender messages regarding the nuclear deterrent and helping China’s defence budget and technology.
While ■■■■■■■ off the Russians by sending in NATO and militarising Russia’s old post WW2 buffer states.Not exactly a mark of good faith after Russia pulled out of them.

If it’s the latter it could get messy bearing in mind the west now seems to prefer the idea of surrender than the mutually assured destruction strategy.
If it’s the former and we get involved then it’s just more confirmation that the western governments have lost the plot in allowing themselves to be dragged into the wrong fight in the wrong place at the wrong time.
While the same would apply even in the case of meeting the threat of the latter by sending boots on the ground out on a pointless suicide mission to stop such a force in Ukraine.When trying to use conventional forces to stop such an invasion would be like taking a knife to a gunfight.

Harry Monk:
Russia’s fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

Bearing in mind that Crimea only became part of Ukraine by decree of the Soviet Union which Ukraine wanted out of.Although the Black Sea is obviously totally dependent on Turkey for access anyway.
There is a point where we need to stay out of slavic affairs and territory and we’ve long ago crossed that point from the Baltics to the Balkans.
Having said that I wouldn’t trust Russia much more than China but not going out of way to ■■■■ off Russia in this case could only help.

Putin and Xinping are not mates…

Putin was wary of Trump, laughs at Biden, and sneers at whoever is installed in Kiev. He’s even made peace with Erdogan meanwhile though, which is no mean feat considering Turkey had the balls to shoot down a Russian military jet and all…

Oh no, it’s a carryfast and Winseer borefest. Get ready for 24 pages of crap.
At least the Brexit thread was amusing

Winseer:
Putin and Xinping are not mates…

Meanwhile in the real world and that’s just what they want to publicise and admit to.

cnbc.com/2019/09/17/russia-c … india.html

thediplomat.com/2019/04/russia- … -to-china/

xinhuanet.com/english/europe … 969477.htm

youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

osark:
https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

Or just confirmation of America doing what America usually does just like it did in 1914 and 1939.
In this case lost their bottle as soon as they realised that mutually assured destruction includes America.
As for Europe, picking a needless pointless fight with Russia, in Russia’s back yard, on Russia’s terms, while allowing and helping China to walk all over us.

Winseer:

Harry Monk:
Ukraine is a strange country. It’s a bit like Belgium, which can’t decide if it is France or the Netherlands. Most folk living in eastern Ukraine don’t even recognise Ukraine as a thing, speak Russian and insist they live in Russia.

Russia invading Ukraine has been inevitable for a long time, Russia’s fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

Russia invading West Ukraine would be like the British Regulars invading Scotland to remove Sturgeon from power, and install a Viceroy of Scotland instead.

And you’d have no issue with that?

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Carryfast:

osark:
https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

Or just confirmation of America doing what America usually does just like it did in 1914 and 1939.
In this case lost their bottle as soon as they realised that mutually assured destruction includes America.
As for Europe, picking a needless pointless fight with Russia, in Russia’s back yard, on Russia’s terms, while allowing and helping China to walk all over us.

I sometimes add my 2 pennorth to an American forum when someone regularly reminds us limeys how the yanks saved our asses from getting whupped by Germany in 2 world wars.My dad had a point of view too.

youtube.com/watch?v=OFvJa9gWFDU

I’d be willing to bet that if NATO doesn’t back down and guarantee to stay out of Ukraine Russia will have the pretext it wants to move and probably won’t even stop at East Ukraine.
At which point all bets are off regarding what China does.Probably both just trying to create a pretext of NATO being the aggressor and setting a trap which NATO looks like it might be stupid enough to walk into.
All in the knowledge that the US isn’t up for any exchange that threatens the US homeland.

Belgium men wear man bags, try that stunt in the Ukraine and end up six feet under.
I don’t get Belgium, it’s a strange country with a love of mayonnaise and chips.
Wait until Russia cut the under sea communication cables then there will be trouble.

James Richards:
Belgium men wear man bags, try that stunt in the Ukraine and end up six feet under.
I don’t get Belgium, it’s a strange country with a love of mayonnaise and chips.
Wait until Russia cut the under sea communication cables then there will be trouble.

Mayo and chips isn’t just a Belgian thing [emoji6]

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Gidders:

Carryfast:

osark:
https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

Or just confirmation of America doing what America usually does just like it did in 1914 and 1939.
In this case lost their bottle as soon as they realised that mutually assured destruction includes America.
As for Europe, picking a needless pointless fight with Russia, in Russia’s back yard, on Russia’s terms, while allowing and helping China to walk all over us.

I sometimes add my 2 pennorth to an American forum when someone regularly reminds us limeys how the yanks saved our asses from getting whupped by Germany in 2 world wars.My dad had a point of view too.

Yep reminding them that their war started in December 1941 and at that point had nothing to do with Germany, is often an unwelcome and inconvient fact.
Even worse this time the plan is to probably fight Russia, over NATO being installed even further into Russia’s back yard, to the last European.
Then Biden will sign the peace treaty when the Russian and Chinese troops are goose stepping up the Mall and through Paris and Berlin and long before any nukes are launched. Let alone escalating to mutually assured destruction threatening the US homeland.
Meanwhile our contribution to China’s military spending budget, to buy more Russian weapons and to finance more China/Russia military ‘co operation’, goes on.

Monkey241:

Mayo and chips isn’t just a Belgian thing [emoji6]
[/quote]
Declaring themselves neutral, thereby providing Churchill with a false pretext for our involvement in a catastrophic World War, is.
A bit like Ukraine inviting NATO into Russia’s backyard and Boris and Biden saying go for it, we’ve got your back, what could possibly go wrong.