586000 men quit work

Looks like the driver shortage will be good for years yet:

Reflecting a sharp rise in early retirement among older workers, the thinktank said economic inactivity – a measure of people out of a job, but who are not looking for work – had soared by 586,000 since the start of the crisis.

Alongside a fall in employment in sectors with higher proportions of men in work, such as construction and manufacturing, it said these trends had led to a shrinking of Britain’s workforce, leaving a more concentrated number of women and younger adults to form the backbone of the UK economy.

According to the report, participation in the UK workforce had fallen by 1.2 percentage points among older workers aged between 55 and 64, the biggest drop in any recession for the past 40 years.

theguardian.com/business/20 … resolution

It’s the Grauniad.

Most of its readers have already self-identified as saucepans.

^^
Eh?

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Sidevalve:
It’s the Grauniad.

Most of its readers have already self-identified as saucepans.

:smiley: :smiley:

Those tory truck drivers!

Likely most of them have taken pensions early or cashed them in after deciding its nkt worth getting another job. I know a lot of people who intend to do this especially drivers.

Good luck to em.

Maybe some have realised the likely coming social care changes possibly means a typical working persons hard earned house and savings are likely to be taken by the state to pay for one’s care nearer to clocking out time, so might as well enjoy a retirement and get yourself down to the same financial position as those who’ve never done a days work in their lives, or those who’ve never paid a penny into the system, sometimes the same people, all of whom who will continue to get everything for free right up to the end.

Watching a Russell Brand video yesterday it appears millions of all age groups have walked out of their jobs in the USA too, Brand has matured well into a someone i didn’t expect him to.

I don’t expect to do the same, but don’t blame anyone who realises they’re going to get royally shafted dry and acts accordingly, our leaders and alleged betters have lost all pretence of honour and decency some of them might once have owned, why should the working class they despise so much behave any differently.

^^^

It isn’t a coincidence that applications for “Equity Release” aka “Whole-of-life Mortgages” are going through the roof now…

Picture this:

You’re already retired, or about to retire
You’ve long since paid off your mortgage
Your house is worth around £600k
You cannot pass it onto your kids, either because you don’t have any, or because you are unlikely to survive another 7 years “as you are” to gift the property over in time.

Your pension payout was rubbish, and it turns out your “enhanced state pension” - doesn’t actually materialize, as you spent 18 months “off book” (not paying National Insurance Stamp) during your past working life, which disqualifies you from the enhancement…

So… What to do?

If you take out credit - it’ll be at a high rate of interest.
You won’t be able to take out a normal second mortgage, because of your low income, and age.

Thus, equity release schemes (which I personally dislike btw) allow people to effectively sell the house they live in, and then continue to live in it for the rest of their days…

If “care” is ever needed, the house belongs to the bank, and not the oldsters any more, so there’s no £86,000 to be taken away from anything, and any such “care” is thus free.

…Now to make that equity release income “disappear” as well… :wink:

It depends how you cook the figures and portray them. The whole 586,000 isn’t just in that age group is it? Amongst the age group 55-64 the participation has dropped 1.2%. Easy to see how that could happen given that for quite a few working is optional (properties paid off, children flown the nest, possibly downsized already). Meanwhile the unlucky ones without savings / pension will set to retire at 66,67,68. Just a couple of years short of 3 score years and ten! Christ I wouldn’t want to be hobbling in at 68, the state I will be in by then.

Winseer:
^^^

It isn’t a coincidence that applications for “Equity Release” aka “Whole-of-life Mortgages” are going through the roof now…

Picture this:

You’re already retired, or about to retire
You’ve long since paid off your mortgage
Your house is worth around £600k
You cannot pass it onto your kids, either because you don’t have any, or because you are unlikely to survive another 7 years “as you are” to gift the property over in time.

Your pension payout was rubbish, and it turns out your “enhanced state pension” - doesn’t actually materialize, as you spent 18 months “off book” (not paying National Insurance Stamp) during your past working life, which disqualifies you from the enhancement…

So… What to do?

If you take out credit - it’ll be at a high rate of interest.
You won’t be able to take out a normal second mortgage, because of your low income, and age.

Thus, equity release schemes (which I personally dislike btw) allow people to effectively sell the house they live in, and then continue to live in it for the rest of their days…

If “care” is ever needed, the house belongs to the bank, and not the oldsters any more, so there’s no £86,000 to be taken away from anything, and any such “care” is thus free.

…Now to make that equity release income “disappear” as well… :wink:

The maximum amount loaned is well under 50% of the value so it’s not ‘selling the house’ as such.
It’s just a part remortgage which hopefully won’t be due for repayment before death.
It’s all just a reflection of an over supplied labour market and profits based on raiding wage provisions, which by default means low incomes for retirement funding and older workers having to compete with younger ones for the easy jobs most suited to older workers.
Combined with the laughable propaganda that we’re all supposedly living longer resulting in at best equally laughable pension payouts.Or at worse being ripped off by the state pension system by increasing an already too high pension age which many won’t live to see or won’t live long after.
In that environment taking on a ‘lifetime mortgage’ if you have a suitable property is more a case of necessity not choice.
The choice being using that to provide essential cash to live, which a decent pension provision should be paying and while you’re still around to spend it.
Or if not at worse bankruptcy in which you’ll lose the property anyway or have to downsize into a small hovel just delaying the bankruptcy for the privilege.
While at best in my case there are no offsring to leave it to and whichever distant surviving releatives might have shared it will probably lose a lot of it to inheritance tax anyway.Either that or the care cost scandal could get it.
Basically I’m only surviving financially because of that legacy left to me by my late parents who lived through better days and the lifetime mortgage option wasn’t an easy one to make.
But far better than the alternative of being over 60 at the mercy of Jobseekers Universal Credit and waiting for the state pension date which would never have arrived in time, or have been enough.
Which would have made that legacy moot.
As it stands it’s a win win situation because whatever I leave as an inheritance is irrelevant especially in an inheritance hostile tax and care costs environment.
While if I didn’t remortgage the place on a lifetime basis I’d just be wrecking my own remaining financial future to the point of losing it all which isn’t what my Parents worked for.It’s a no brainer.
The truth is it’s just a symptom of a rigged labour market combined with an equally rigged pension system.Workers should be retired on a decent pension by the age of 60 not raiding hard earned property equity to survive.
On that note it’s more likely that those born after 1955 will be relying on what their parents left them from the better years than having a paid for house of their own.
With many of around my generation, including some relatives, facing retirement mostly reliant on state pension and in the rented sector.I count myself lucky in that regard.

Juddian:
Maybe some have realised the likely coming social care changes possibly means a typical working persons hard earned house and savings are likely to be taken by the state to pay for one’s care nearer to clocking out time, so might as well enjoy a retirement and get yourself down to the same financial position as those who’ve never done a days work in their lives, or those who’ve never paid a penny into the system, sometimes the same people, all of whom who will continue to get everything for free right up to the end.

I recently had a month off sick where this was driven home to me. Here’s me muggins having done the right thing, saved my money, invested it, built up a nice little stash sat on £95 a week SSP entitled to sod all else because of that stash despite paying more stoppages than some people earn meanwhile up the road someone who has earned a load more than me but spent it on going on foreign holidays a few times a year, brand new car every few years and whatever other crap and has no savings would be able to also claim universal credit and get £100s a week.

Saving is not rewarded in this country. Might be time to pay a lump off the mortgage, put in that kitchen we’ve been talking about for a few years, put a few bob under the mattress given the interest rates on savings are zero and shove the rest in my pension because certainly having it sat in investments and savings accounts isn’t doing me any favours.

Conor:

Juddian:
Maybe some have realised the likely coming social care changes possibly means a typical working persons hard earned house and savings are likely to be taken by the state to pay for one’s care nearer to clocking out time, so might as well enjoy a retirement and get yourself down to the same financial position as those who’ve never done a days work in their lives, or those who’ve never paid a penny into the system, sometimes the same people, all of whom who will continue to get everything for free right up to the end.

I recently had a month off sick where this was driven home to me. Here’s me muggins having done the right thing, saved my money, invested it, built up a nice little stash sat on £95 a week SSP entitled to sod all else because of that stash despite paying more stoppages than some people earn meanwhile up the road someone who has earned a load more than me but spent it on going on foreign holidays a few times a year, brand new car every few years and whatever other crap and has no savings would be able to also claim universal credit and get £100s a week.

Saving is not rewarded in this country. Might be time to pay a lump off the mortgage, put in that kitchen we’ve been talking about for a few years, put a few bob under the mattress given the interest rates on savings are zero and shove the rest in my pension because certainly having it sat in investments and savings accounts isn’t doing me any favours.

Well you’ve gone wrong then somewhere Connor , I’m 60 & my mortgage was paid of 20 yrs ago & I was one of the ones who got shafted with endowment mortgages , but whilst every man & his dog was paying by d/d I much to the annoyance of the nationwide continued to pay x amount extra on my payment book p.m , when our repayment mortgage we changed too finished we still had the endowment money we hadn’t cashed though it was nowhere near the money they had forecast ,
We upto COVID had 2x2 holidays abroad , newish cars , went were we wanted , meals etc
Yet managed to save loads , Isa, bonds , shares etc
And all this was done from what was referred on here a peanuts & buttons job
As for pensions were never going to be as well off as now , but government , my 3 pensions , mrs nhs + 2 previous pens & savings should make for a liveable pension
As for folks above saying kids won’t get anything out of house , I’ve helped mine & still do with cars ( buying / ins / tax / fuel ) & help by giving her lump sums towards house so she will be hopefully mortgage free by the time I’m gone

The tories have made sure to hammer the poor - if you had 100 grand you will be left with 20 grand, whereas if you have 500 grand you will be left with 414,000 after the changes.

JeffA:
The tories have made sure to hammer the poor - if you had 100 grand you will be left with 20 grand, whereas if you have 500 grand you will be left with 414,000 after the changes.

Here is an explanation of that for those not seen it yet.
The first vote went through Monday evening, although a Gov impact assessment hasn’t even been made yet.
.
Whoops link
bbc.co.uk/news/59379586

Carryfast:
On that note it’s more likely that those born after 1955 will be relying on what their parents left them from the better years than having a paid for house of their own.
With many of around my generation, including some relatives, facing retirement mostly reliant on state pension and in the rented sector.I count myself lucky in that regard.

I think we all make the mistake of looking at the people we know and presuming that is related for the majority My experience is completely different.

Of my 4 closest friends born between 60-65, ones mother died around 5 years ago having lived in a council flat, her father having left when she was a teenager. She was left a few 1000.

Second ones mother died 2 years ago when she was 60. 190k house split between 3, nice but their house is paid for and they have helped their daughter get a house. Father died 30 years previously.

Third, mother died late 90s, father several years earlier. House 150k ish split between 2. She would have felt a benefit.

Fourth, retiring at 60 next year, both parents alive and well. Very well paying job, doesn’t need inheritance.

My parents died when before I was 30. My inheritance was around 10k. My father had gone bankrupt and I had bought the famy home.

Third

Carryfast:
The maximum amount loaned is well under 50% of the value so it’s not ‘selling the house’ as such.
It’s just a part remortgage which hopefully won’t be due for repayment before death

moneysavingexpert.com/mortg … y-release/
As always MoneySavingExpert gives a good simple idea of what its all about.

Carryfast:
It’s all just a reflection of an over supplied labour market

Not many are saying there is a labour over supply at the moment?

Carryfast:
which you’ll lose the property anyway or have to downsize into a small hovel just delaying the bankruptcy for the privilege.

One or two living retirees in a family home that was bought for their (now flown) family, needs more heating and taxes paying, is likely older so needs more maintenance. Of course we are emotionally invested in homes more than houses, but the economics need looking at too.

Carryfast:
Or at worse being ripped off by the state pension system by increasing an already too high pension age which many won’t live to see or won’t live long after.

Carryfast:
.Workers should be retired on a decent pension by the age of 60 not raiding hard earned property equity to survive.

Carryfast:
the laughable propaganda that we’re all supposedly living longer

Life expectancy in the UK (apart from Covid) has been increasing for decades.
macrotrends.net/countries/G … expectancy
So, if are at school until we are…?..20. work until we are 60 you say, then live to 80…how is that funded in your idea?
40 years work funding 20 years retirement? As someone who is always moaning about paying taxes how do you see it happening?
(I bet I`ll regret asking such a question!)

Carryfast:
probably lose a lot of it to inheritance tax anyway.

Who “loses” in inheritance taxes? Not the person who earned the money, they are dead.
Taxes are needed to fund the short working life and long retirement you proposed above, but don`t want taxes to pay for.

dozy:
Well you’ve gone wrong then somewhere Connor , I’m 60 & my mortgage was paid of 20 yrs ago & I was one of the ones who got shafted with endowment mortgages , but whilst every man & his dog was paying by d/d I much to the annoyance of the nationwide continued to pay x amount extra on my payment book p.m , when our repayment mortgage we changed too finished we still had the endowment money we hadn’t cashed though it was nowhere near the money they had forecast ,
We upto COVID had 2x2 holidays abroad , newish cars , went were we wanted , meals etc
Yet managed to save loads , Isa, bonds , shares etc
And all this was done from what was referred on here a peanuts & buttons job
As for pensions were never going to be as well off as now , but government , my 3 pensions , mrs nhs + 2 previous pens & savings should make for a liveable pension
As for folks above saying kids won’t get anything out of house , I’ve helped mine & still do with cars ( buying / ins / tax / fuel ) & help by giving her lump sums towards house so she will be hopefully mortgage free by the time I’m gone

dozy, in some circumstances, if you have a lump sum equal to your mortgage balance (and can invest it to the tune of more than your mortgage interest), it makes sense not to pay off the mortgage. You also benefit from the rainy day fund that it provides. Of course there is risk involved in investing so the closer you are to retirement, the more sense it makes to pay off the mortgage.

If, say, you are out of work for a few months, you can delve into the pot to pay off your mortgage minimum payments.

Regards Conor, he is quick to put forward the benefits of being on agency. I suppose you could say the eventuality of ending up on SSP for a short time is one of the disadvantages. A reputable company would often times offer full pay for a period of time at least.

I don’t have much sympathy for Conor’s (financial) plight to be honest. At the end of the day he claims to have been creaming it off the top of his investments for years and can clearly afford to pay his mortgage minimum payments, so having some expectation of the welfare state assisting him in his ‘plight’ is somewhat far-fetched. Of course I fully sympathise with anyone experiencing ill health and I wish Conor a speedy recovery.

Noremac:
dozy, in some circumstances, if you have a lump sum equal to your mortgage balance (and can invest it to the tune of more than your mortgage interest), it makes sense not to pay off the mortgage. You also benefit from the rainy day fund that it provides. Of course there is risk involved in investing so the closer you are to retirement, the more sense it makes to pay off the mortgage.

You`re not wrong, but the key is “in some circumstances”.
We are all in differing personal circumstances and our own position changes with time. Always discuss any long term plans with others, preferably experts, but even forums such as this with non experts give insights into courses we may not be aware of at all.
.
Big decisions are best taken after professional advice from independent advisors, and their fees are likely recouped from their advice. Free advice service from banks etc are not to be ignored either. Be aware of their ties and limits, but not to be ignored.
Read forums etc to gain background, but for big and long term choices take advice.

Ed to Add
“if you have a lump sum equal to your mortgage balance (and can invest it to the tune of more than your mortgage interest),”
Sounds like a financial equivalent to a perpetual motion device to me?
Borrow £ at X% interest payment,
invest at X+%
the + is profit.
(£100 quid borrowed at 10% invested at 20%
Pay £10 pa in interest. Gain £20 in dividends)
If it was that simple and risk free* why wouldn`t we all borrow shed loads, invest** and live off the profits?

  • it isn`t!
    **invest how? By lending money to borrowers? A perpetual circle.

There are circumstances when keeping cash or re-investing is good, but other circumstances when it isn`t, and those circumstances change.

Franglais, some might say it is a risk to reward strategy. I did say that there is a risk. Doing anything that would put your home at risk wouldn’t be wise. Safety mechanisms might be setting a stop loss and also always making sure that you can pay minimum payments through income alone. Any change of circumstances would absolutely need to be considered.