Writren in the Guardian, by a Labour party member. So, those of you who will shout about such things can post your replies NOW without reading it.
Some others may choose to spend a half hour reading it and following some of the underlined links through.
theguardian.com/commentisfr … by-stealth
Bring back Tony Blair and Gordon Brown they’ll fix everything the best PM’s we ever had. 
Franglais:
Writren in the Guardian, by a Labour party member. So, those of you who will shout about such things can post your replies NOW without reading it.
Some others may choose to spend a half hour reading it and following some of the underlined links through.
theguardian.com/commentisfr … by-stealth
I think this should be monitored closely by all. If not we may well find ourselves in a situation that is beyond changing and we will end up being penalised financially supporting a NHS that has become, by stealth, a healthy income stream for private companies.
When the banks caused so many so much pain in 2008 everybody blamed the bankers. I said then, and have done since, that I (and possibly you) was to blame in part too. How? By simply not keeping my eye on what politicians were doing in allowing the banks so much slack that they did daft things-you know how that ended. All done for their personal gain and greed (You decide whether the greedy people in question were the bankers or politicians…). I should have seen what they were up to and screamed aloud about it.
Don’t let the politicians do the same with the NHS now.
Dipster:
Don’t let the politicians do the same with the NHS now.
Ironically it’s exactly what happens when the ‘politicians’ have all the control over health care provision.You know like the NHS.
No such problems with the German system.Why is that.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or how its funded and operated.It’s all about wages meeting health care costs and the NHS was an oxymoron in that regard from the start.
Carryfast:
Dipster:
Don’t let the politicians do the same with the NHS now.Ironically it’s exactly what happens when the ‘politicians’ have all the control over health care provision.You know like the NHS.
No such problems with the German system.Why is that.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or how its funded and operated.It’s all about wages meeting health care costs and the NHS was an oxymoron in that regard from the start.
Do you suggest a commercial style insurance system is better? As in the US? Where costs are simply crazy due to insurance companies meeting them? Resulting in premiums that millions simply cannot afford. Thus ensuring that millions live without healthcare? I am not sure I would be comfortable with that.
Dipster:
Carryfast:
Dipster:
Don’t let the politicians do the same with the NHS now.Ironically it’s exactly what happens when the ‘politicians’ have all the control over health care provision.You know like the NHS.
No such problems with the German system.Why is that.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or how its funded and operated.It’s all about wages meeting health care costs and the NHS was an oxymoron in that regard from the start.Do you suggest a commercial style insurance system is better? As in the US? Where costs are simply crazy due to insurance companies meeting them? Resulting in premiums that millions simply cannot afford. Thus ensuring that millions live without healthcare? I am not sure I would be comfortable with that.
In the US circa 500000 people per year, yes half a million, are declared bankrupt because of health costs they cannot afford.
theguardian.com/us-news/201 … uptcy-debt
We lose the NHS at our peril.
It has its faults but if it goes, those faults will be seen as mere inconveniences when we have to pay directly.
Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk
Dipster:
Carryfast:
Dipster:
Don’t let the politicians do the same with the NHS now.Ironically it’s exactly what happens when the ‘politicians’ have all the control over health care provision.You know like the NHS.
No such problems with the German system.Why is that.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or how its funded and operated.It’s all about wages meeting health care costs and the NHS was an oxymoron in that regard from the start.Do you suggest a commercial style insurance system is better? As in the US? Where costs are simply crazy due to insurance companies meeting them? Resulting in premiums that millions simply cannot afford. Thus ensuring that millions live without healthcare? I am not sure I would be comfortable with that.
Remind me where did I say anything about the US system ( which was actually fine before they exported their high paying jobs to cheap labour sweatshop economies like Communist China ).
As opposed to a public/private funded hybrid in which health care costs by necessity still have to be factored into the wage bargaining process but just enough control over it all to stop providers and insurers taking the ■■■■.
Unlike here where the employers and government say what health care costs it’s all free trust us we’ll provide everything.
Hospital closures, triage, ICU bed and vascular surgery etc rationing, Liverpool Pathways fastrack to the cemetery to save costs, move along nothing to see here.
So where was/is the in house NHS scanner and medical equipment manufacturing centre.
Dipster:
Carryfast:
Dipster:
Don’t let the politicians do the same with the NHS now.Ironically it’s exactly what happens when the ‘politicians’ have all the control over health care provision.You know like the NHS.
No such problems with the German system.Why is that.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or how its funded and operated.It’s all about wages meeting health care costs and the NHS was an oxymoron in that regard from the start.Do you suggest a commercial style insurance system is better? As in the US? Where costs are simply crazy due to insurance companies meeting them? Resulting in premiums that millions simply cannot afford. Thus ensuring that millions live without healthcare? I am not sure I would be comfortable with that.
Why does everyone always use the US as an example? There are plenty of other systems which work perfectly well, Germany has a hybrid insurance/state system which is excellent. When living out there and my wife at the time needed surgery after telling her that she needed surgery the next question was “When would you like the operation?” That’s right no waiting list and you can choose when to have your operation the reason is because people have a choice of provider and if provider x is crap then they know people will go to provider y. The US system is at the opposite end of the scale to the NHS but there is plenty in between which work perfectly well
The problem for the NHS and any system providing free services is that a large minority of freeloaders/loafers/lead swingers/layabouts etc not to mention hordes of timewasters who imagine they have every ailment imaginable will take advantage, mainly to avail themselves of all that an out of control welfare state can provide, courtesy of those taxpayers who arn’t part of those groups, anything to avoid having to work for living.
A good start would be to make a visit to the doctor chargeable, say £10/20 a time and no not free for those already milking the system (pensioners exempt of course), but this not to be extra income for the NHS doctors who are already doing rather well in recent times, each charge paid to be deducted from the NHS contribution to said doctor to prevent the greedy among them running a money spinning production line.
Sadly for years we’ve been rewarding the feckless and bone idle, in that milking the system has now become a career choice for too many, this cannot carry on with the population exploding and fewer people being net contributors to society.
Maybe the current ongoing mass medical experiment will bring forth changes so far unknown generally.
Juddian:
The problem for the NHS and any system providing free services is that a large minority of freeloaders/loafers/lead swingers/layabouts etc not to mention hordes of timewasters who imagine they have every ailment imaginable will take advantage, mainly to avail themselves of all that an out of control welfare state can provide, courtesy of those taxpayers who arn’t part of those groups, anything to avoid having to work for living.A good start would be to make a visit to the doctor chargeable, say £10/20 a time and no not free for those already milking the system (pensioners exempt of course), but this not to be extra income for the NHS doctors who are already doing rather well in recent times, each charge paid to be deducted from the NHS contribution to said doctor to prevent the greedy among them running a money spinning production line.
Sadly for years we’ve been rewarding the feckless and bone idle, in that milking the system has now become a career choice for too many, this cannot carry on with the population exploding and fewer people being net contributors to society.
Maybe the current ongoing mass medical experiment will bring forth changes so far unknown generally.
You raise a point that I have discussed (argued really) over with my brother for years. I think GP appointments should be paid for when booked (perhaps the £10 or 20 you mention) and if you do not turn up (which is what happens a lot at the moment) you forfeit your payment. I also feel that patients should make a greater contribution to healthcare received providing you are not truly poor.
The NHS is a great service to have as it provides reassurance and excellent care when people are at death’s door. Perhaps less so when the need is less urgent. Is it perfect? Far from it but it should be constantly upgraded and waste chased out. For example why do hospital administrators, who are paper wallahs and not medical staff, get paid so much? I do not understand that.
Juddian:
The problem for the NHS and any system providing free services is that a large minority of freeloaders/loafers/lead swingers/layabouts etc not to mention hordes of timewasters who imagine they have every ailment imaginable will take advantage, mainly to avail themselves of all that an out of control welfare state can provide, courtesy of those taxpayers who arn’t part of those groups, anything to avoid having to work for living.A good start would be to make a visit to the doctor chargeable, say £10/20 a time and no not free for those already milking the system (pensioners exempt of course), but this not to be extra income for the NHS doctors who are already doing rather well in recent times, each charge paid to be deducted from the NHS contribution to said doctor to prevent the greedy among them running a money spinning production line.
Sadly for years we’ve been rewarding the feckless and bone idle, in that milking the system has now become a career choice for too many, this cannot carry on with the population exploding and fewer people being net contributors to society.
Maybe the current ongoing mass medical experiment will bring forth changes so far unknown generally.
Hospitals aren’t in the business of carrying out surgical procedures on hypochondriacs.It really doesn’t/can’t happen.The surgeon and the hospital management would end up in court facing charges of criminal negligence.
But what does happen is a palliative care death sentence on low priority patients as part of the no choice triage system.
To save the costs needed to pay for a German standard health care system so that the employer classes can afford a new Merc every year instead of every two years.
Be careful what you wish for.If you’re saying lets also play the hypochondriac card on high demand patients.
That’ll even save the government and employers the costs of imposing the Hospice regime to add to the injury of the witheld vascular micro surgery or ICU bed etc.
Dipster:
Juddian:
The problem for the NHS and any system providing free services is that a large minority of freeloaders/loafers/lead swingers/layabouts etc not to mention hordes of timewasters who imagine they have every ailment imaginable will take advantage, mainly to avail themselves of all that an out of control welfare state can provide, courtesy of those taxpayers who arn’t part of those groups, anything to avoid having to work for living.A good start would be to make a visit to the doctor chargeable, say £10/20 a time and no not free for those already milking the system (pensioners exempt of course), but this not to be extra income for the NHS doctors who are already doing rather well in recent times, each charge paid to be deducted from the NHS contribution to said doctor to prevent the greedy among them running a money spinning production line.
Sadly for years we’ve been rewarding the feckless and bone idle, in that milking the system has now become a career choice for too many, this cannot carry on with the population exploding and fewer people being net contributors to society.
Maybe the current ongoing mass medical experiment will bring forth changes so far unknown generally.
You raise a point that I have discussed (argued really) over with my brother for years. I think GP appointments should be paid for when booked (perhaps the £10 or 20 you mention) and if you do not turn up (which is what happens a lot at the moment) you forfeit your payment. I also feel that patients should make a greater contribution to healthcare received providing you are not truly poor.
The NHS is a great service to have as it provides reassurance and excellent care when people are are at death’s door. Perhaps less so when the need is les urgent. Is it perfect? Far from it but it should be constantly upgraded and waste chased out. For example why do hospital administrators, who are paper wallahs and not medical staff, get paid so much? I do not understand that.
So the low income groups are dissuaded from going to the doctor and a saveable medical problem, which could have been found in time, only gets found out too late when they are rushed to A and E.
So at best just another form of rationing or at worse another example of our pretend Health Care system that’s all about saving cash for the employer classes by making the mugs think that they have a free health care system.
Fine let’s pay for it all but don’t selectively then try to avoid paying people the incomes to pay it.Which is what this is all about.
Mazzer2:
Germany has a hybrid insurance/state system which is excellent.
The difference is that Germany hasn’t yet completely thrown its economy and wealth creation machine down the race to the bottom global free market toilet like us and the US.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called or how it’s funded if the jobs and the wages ain’t there to pay for it.
CF, i don’t think you realise just how much time and money wasters some non patients can be, someone my mrs knows is always at the sodding doctor, no she isn’t being operated on obviously cos there’s sod all wrong with her, but she must have cost us a fortune, us by the way not her cos i’ve never known her actually do a days work, there’s more than her out there.
A&E has been deserted over the last year, you just know once this current farce is consigned to the national embarrassment and scandal it was/is that the usual suspects will be there regularly again.
A and E use has dropped during current C19 pandemic.
But I don’t think you can say that is because hypochondriacs are staying at home. Surely they will still be going in with their coughs and temperatures?
Less traffic causing fewer breathing difficulties, fewer accidents from football, and skateboarding? The genuinely ill avoiding the hazards of waiting rooms. Some putting off getting treatment, maybe unwisely “letting things develop”?
Less A and E use does not equate with loads of time wasters.
.
Administrators have a genuine use.
How can any inefficiency* be seen if we don’t know what is going on? How can efficacy of treatment be assessed if we have no evidence of effects? Money and effort will be wasted if we don’t know facts. And we are better using non medical staff for that if have thought.
*efficiency is a mantra for those wishing to cut NHS funds. The most efficient service wouldn’t waste money on hard cases, but abandon them.
That isn’t what we want is it?
Ed.
A bus is an efficient form of transport.
When you or your’s is ill do you want a bus type NHS or a Rolls Royce NHS?
Beware of those peddling a two tier system who want a bus service for you but a Roller for themselves.
The biggest problems with the NHS are not on the medical side or with the front line medical staff especially within hospitals. The waste of money is in the management and buildings provisions and maintenance.
The wastage of money just in replacing things like lightbulbs runs into millions annually. Having to pay full retail price and labour costs to a contractor instead of having in house services is ridiculous.
Have a look at how the board of directors of a NHS trust works and you suddenly realise where financial savings on a huge scale could be made .
Take a long hard look at the work of the backroom administrations staff then wonder why much of the correspondence is contracted out to off site processing centres. Why are their two computer systems that aren’t linked and every 5 years or so a new system is introduced that cause more problems than they solve .
The medical side of the NHS is very professional, governed, controlled and regulated. Sadly the management and administration is not .
There are always instances of silliness in big organizations, the ten men in hi viz with scaffolding to change a lightbulb etc.
Is the NHS really any worse than others?
Being big there will be many examples, but for it’s size is it bad? Would a private organisations be better?
Are Virgin trains or Stagecoach better than national or council transport services?
Here in France we pay up front and claim it back.
So a Doctor’s visit might cost 25 euro’s - Flat rate - General consultation. A specialist cost’s 52 i think. A Dentist visit is 25.
So the state refunds me 17 euros and my mutual 8.
My employer pays for the mutual as part of my benefits. It’s the law they have to subscribe. I don’t pay anything .The level of benefit’s does vary though.
This current mutual is average.
The one before gave really high limit’s .My daughter had to have an operation which cost 3000 euros (it would not have been free on the NHS) and with the mutual i paid nothing.
For Optician’s i can get 400 euro’s worth of glasses and lenses every two year’s.
Franglais:
A and E use has dropped during current C19 pandemic.
But I don’t think you can say that is because hypochondriacs are staying at home. Surely they will still be going in with their coughs and temperatures?
Less traffic causing fewer breathing difficulties, fewer accidents from football, and skateboarding? The genuinely ill avoiding the hazards of waiting rooms. Some putting off getting treatment, maybe unwisely “letting things develop”?
Less A and E use does not equate with loads of time wasters.
.
Administrators have a genuine use.
How can any inefficiency* be seen if we don’t know what is going on? How can efficacy of treatment be assessed if we have no evidence of effects? Money and effort will be wasted if we don’t know facts. And we are better using non medical staff for that if have thought.*efficiency is a mantra for those wishing to cut NHS funds. The most efficient service wouldn’t waste money on hard cases, but abandon them.
That isn’t what we want is it?Ed.
A bus is an efficient form of transport.
When you or your’s is ill do you want a bus type NHS or a Rolls Royce NHS?
Beware of those peddling a two tier system who want a bus service for you but a Roller for themselves.
A bus is a totally useless form of transport if you want to collect some heavy shopping stocks in or DIY stuff to maintain the house or want to go on a nice road trip for a holiday.
So do you want a Soviet style health service or a German one
IE a bus v a Merc E class Estate for everyone.
You’re clearly selling the former and our rationed joke including Liverpool Pathways was/is the result to keep the elites in luxury.
Franglais:
There are always instances of silliness in big organizations, the ten men in hi viz with scaffolding to change a lightbulb etc.
Is the NHS really any worse than others?
Being big there will be many examples, but for it’s size is it bad? Would a private organisations be better?
Are Virgin trains or Stagecoach better than national or council transport services?
The difference between a private organisation and the NHS is that if the private organisation is continually run in an inefficient way and using bad practices it will go bust as the money runs out . What are the financial penalties for individuals who screw up in NHS administration? Plenty of cases where someone leaves one trust under a cloud only to reappear in a neighbouring trust in a similar role. Don’t keep to the budget that’s ok the government will just bail you out and if they don’t then we can all slag off the government for not funding the NHS. The UK has one of the unfittest and unhealthiest populations in Europe yet we have free at the point of use health care, perhaps in countries where you pay people take better care of themselves to not only protect their pocket but their health too.