Ukraine [merged]

[Optimum]

A
Russian invasion of Ukraine is “inevitable and imminent”, Commons Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood has said.

The Conservative MP made the claim in the wake of a massive cyber attack on Ukraine which left much of the country without heat, light and access to money.
Does anyone here drive to/through Ukraine?
Are we vulnerable to a massive cyber attack?
Will it affect the driver shortage?

[Winseer]

To put my Devil's Advocate hat on today:

Kiev are probably lying through their teeth to get NATO to back an aggressive invasion of East Ukraine, which is already in Russian hands, don't forget...

I don't reckon Russia has any motive to invade the West of the country, but would rather consolidate the hold they now have over the East.

West Ukraine is full of Europhile Russia-hating Liberals, whereas the East have already voted in their own referendum to return to Mother Russia, which Putin to his credit - immediately implemented. Putin is clearly not an enemy of the wider world's Right nor any Brexiteer in this country, I'll venture....

Putin is likely worried that a spin-doctored invasion by Kiev of his held East Ukrainian territory, especially the Crimea - would be justified by some kind of "Red False Flag Throwdown" such as a staged chemical attack, shooting down another West Europe airliner, or maybe even a "terror" attack on Kiev's home ground by "Russian Seperatists" or perhaps a staged Cyber attack that actually never took place, but at least doesn't kill as many of their own innocents as the first two options I've mention would (and did, in the case of MH17 in the past...)

So Putin moves troops not into East Ukraine, but to the border of Russia and the already-held territory of East Ukraine.
If Putin moves them further - That is NOT an invasion, but Kiev would have the rest of the world believe it IS of course.

If Kiev invades the long standing Russian naval base at Sevestopal, Crimea for example - is that Kiev aggression against Putin, or if Putin retaliates - is that Putin aggression against Kiev??


Common sense, hopefully will prevail here.


Kiev cannot go it alone. Lies and a lot of spin are clearly needed to justify that red paragraph above, and quite frankly - I don't think NATO even with Dumbnuts Biden Backing - will go for such an obvious piece of "Borgia" politik from Kiev.

[SWEDISH BLUE]

W T F ???????????????????????????????????????

[Harry Monk]

Ukraine is a strange country. It's a bit like Belgium, which can't decide if it is France or the Netherlands. Most folk living in eastern Ukraine don't even recognise Ukraine as a thing, speak Russian and insist they live in Russia.

Russia invading Ukraine has been inevitable for a long time, Russia's fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

[Winseer]

W T F ???????????????????????????????????????

Best bump this to Bully's... Not much driving content to be had on *this* topic, but I'll stick this vid here to try and amend that.

I'll venture that Putin seems to make a better world leader than he would a trucker..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgmJrvcKtVI

[Winseer]

Ukraine is a strange country. It's a bit like Belgium, which can't decide if it is France or the Netherlands. Most folk living in eastern Ukraine don't even recognise Ukraine as a thing, speak Russian and insist they live in Russia.

Russia invading Ukraine has been inevitable for a long time, Russia's fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

Russia invading West Ukraine would be like the British Regulars invading Scotland to remove Sturgeon from power, and install a Viceroy of Scotland *instead*.

Kiev's people hate Putin, Autocrats, and other obvious right-wingers with a passion - Putin might be able to easily capture Kiev if he had a mind to, but he would never hold it, just as the Soviet Union were not able to dislodge Kiev from allying up with Hitler in WWII.

That Liberals pretty much everywhere, let alone in West Ukraine hate people like Putin, they clearly have something in common with the EU, but I'd suggest NOT with NATO.

American presidents, and with it their foreign policy - come and go.

The EU though?

Even when we don't let it cum anymore - it still won't bloody go!

[Carryfast]

To put my Devil's Advocate hat on today:

Kiev are probably lying through their teeth to get NATO to back an aggressive invasion of East Ukraine, which is already in Russian hands, don't forget...

I don't reckon Russia has any motive to invade the West of the country, but would rather consolidate the hold they now have over the East.

I guess Russia rightly sees it the same as we saw the Northern Ireland issue so it's just a localised issue in which East Ukraine is off limits that we need to stay well out of.

However on the other hand it could just as likely be a small part of a much bigger move, which could theoretically see a joint Russian/NK/Pakistan/China and maybe even India move on the west.Possibly also involving simultaneous actions in the Pacific.
In which case we haven't helped ourselves by sending surrender messages regarding the nuclear deterrent and helping China's defence budget and technology.
While pissing off the Russians by sending in NATO and militarising Russia's old post WW2 buffer states.Not exactly a mark of good faith after Russia pulled out of them.

If it's the latter it could get messy bearing in mind the west now seems to prefer the idea of surrender than the mutually assured destruction strategy.
If it's the former and we get involved then it's just more confirmation that the western governments have lost the plot in allowing themselves to be dragged into the wrong fight in the wrong place at the wrong time.
While the same would apply even in the case of meeting the threat of the latter by sending boots on the ground out on a pointless suicide mission to stop such a force in Ukraine.When trying to use conventional forces to stop such an invasion would be like taking a knife to a gunfight.

[Carryfast]

Russia's fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

Bearing in mind that Crimea only became part of Ukraine by decree of the Soviet Union which Ukraine wanted out of.Although the Black Sea is obviously totally dependent on Turkey for access anyway.
There is a point where we need to stay out of slavic affairs and territory and we've long ago crossed that point from the Baltics to the Balkans.
Having said that I wouldn't trust Russia much more than China but not going out of way to piss off Russia in this case could only help.

[Winseer]

Putin and Xinping are not mates.....

Putin was wary of Trump, laughs at Biden, and sneers at whoever is installed in Kiev. He's even made peace with Erdogan meanwhile though, which is no mean feat considering Turkey had the balls to shoot down a Russian military jet and all..

[msgyorkie]

Oh no, it's a carryfast and Winseer borefest. Get ready for 24 pages of crap.
At least the Brexit thread was amusing

[Carryfast]

Putin and Xinping are not mates.....

Meanwhile in the real world and that's just what they want to publicise and admit to.

http://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/17/russia-c ... india.html

https://thediplomat.com/2019/04/russia- ... -to-china/

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/europe ... 969477.htm

[osark]

https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

[Carryfast]

https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

Or just confirmation of America doing what America usually does just like it did in 1914 and 1939.
In this case lost their bottle as soon as they realised that mutually assured destruction includes America.
As for Europe, picking a needless pointless fight with Russia, in Russia's back yard, on Russia's terms, while allowing and helping China to walk all over us.

[Monkey241]

Ukraine is a strange country. It's a bit like Belgium, which can't decide if it is France or the Netherlands. Most folk living in eastern Ukraine don't even recognise Ukraine as a thing, speak Russian and insist they live in Russia.

Russia invading Ukraine has been inevitable for a long time, Russia's fear is that Ukraine increasingly cosying up to the eu means they will lose access to their last all-weather sea ports.

Russia invading West Ukraine would be like the British Regulars invading Scotland to remove Sturgeon from power, and install a Viceroy of Scotland *instead*.

And you'd have no issue with that?

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[Gidders]

https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

Or just confirmation of America doing what America usually does just like it did in 1914 and 1939.
In this case lost their bottle as soon as they realised that mutually assured destruction includes America.
As for Europe, picking a needless pointless fight with Russia, in Russia's back yard, on Russia's terms, while allowing and helping China to walk all over us.

I sometimes add my 2 pennorth to an American forum when someone regularly reminds us limeys how the yanks saved our asses from getting whupped by Germany in 2 world wars.My dad had a point of view too.

[Carryfast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFvJa9gWFDU

I'd be willing to bet that if NATO doesn't back down and guarantee to stay out of Ukraine Russia will have the pretext it wants to move and probably won't even stop at East Ukraine.
At which point all bets are off regarding what China does.Probably both just trying to create a pretext of NATO being the aggressor and setting a trap which NATO looks like it might be stupid enough to walk into.
All in the knowledge that the US isn't up for any exchange that threatens the US homeland.

[James Richards]

Belgium men wear man bags, try that stunt in the Ukraine and end up six feet under.
I don’t get Belgium, it’s a strange country with a love of mayonnaise and chips.
Wait until Russia cut the under sea communication cables then there will be trouble.

[Monkey241]

Belgium men wear man bags, try that stunt in the Ukraine and end up six feet under.
I don’t get Belgium, it’s a strange country with a love of mayonnaise and chips.
Wait until Russia cut the under sea communication cables then there will be trouble.

Mayo and chips isn't just a Belgian thing

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[Carryfast]

https://youtu.be/O9wVOLMV7xs

This fella understands Russia a bit

Or just confirmation of America doing what America usually does just like it did in 1914 and 1939.
In this case lost their bottle as soon as they realised that mutually assured destruction includes America.
As for Europe, picking a needless pointless fight with Russia, in Russia's back yard, on Russia's terms, while allowing and helping China to walk all over us.

I sometimes add my 2 pennorth to an American forum when someone regularly reminds us limeys how the yanks saved our asses from getting whupped by Germany in 2 world wars.My dad had a point of view too.

Yep reminding them that their war started in December 1941 and at that point had nothing to do with Germany, is often an unwelcome and inconvient fact.
Even worse this time the plan is to probably fight Russia, over NATO being installed even further into Russia's back yard, to the last European.
Then Biden will sign the peace treaty when the Russian and Chinese troops are goose stepping up the Mall and through Paris and Berlin and long before any nukes are launched. Let alone escalating to mutually assured destruction threatening the US homeland.
Meanwhile our contribution to China's military spending budget, to buy more Russian weapons and to finance more China/Russia military 'co operation', goes on.

[Carryfast]

Mayo and chips isn't just a Belgian thing [/quote]

Declaring themselves neutral, thereby providing Churchill with a false pretext for our involvement in a catastrophic World War, is.
A bit like Ukraine inviting NATO into Russia's backyard and Boris and Biden saying go for it, we've got your back, what could possibly go wrong.

[James Richards]

Nearly every lay-by in Belgium has a frite Mayo van and I checked my email on Have I been pawnd ,a free check service and it was hacked in Russia for passwords .

[Monkey241]

Mayo and chips isn't just a Belgian thing

Declaring themselves neutral, thereby providing Churchill with a false pretext for our involvement in a catastrophic World War, is.
A bit like Ukraine inviting NATO into Russia's backyard and Boris and Biden saying go for it, we've got your back, what could possibly go wrong.[/quote]

I think you'll find Belgium didn't declare its neutrality. The premise for that goes back to the Treaty of London. Neutrality was guaranteed cos Belgium tended to figure in most European attack strategies.

And you're confusing world wars Belgian violation triggered WW1 - the trigger for Churchill in WW2 was Poland.

Apart from those little inaccuracies you're grasp of European history is stunning. I shall follow your every utterance with a new found respect from now on

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[Carryfast]

Mayo and chips isn't just a Belgian thing

Declaring themselves neutral, thereby providing Churchill with a false pretext for our involvement in a catastrophic World War, is.
A bit like Ukraine inviting NATO into Russia's backyard and Boris and Biden saying go for it, we've got your back, what could possibly go wrong.

I think you'll find Belgium didn't declare its neutrality. The premise for that goes back to the Treaty of London. Neutrality was guaranteed cos Belgium tended to figure in most European attack strategies.

And you're confusing world wars Belgian violation triggered WW1 - the trigger for Churchill in WW2 was Poland.

Apart from those little inaccuracies you're grasp of European history is stunning. I shall follow your every utterance with a new found respect from now on [/quote]

Until that Belgian neutrality was taken advantage of by Russia and France to threaten Germany by removing its only means of defence against a war on two fronts.
Not that I condone the refusal of Serb self determination in that but Churchill was happy enough to deny same for Ireland.
But ironically and more importantly it contains a frightening paralel to Ukraine in risking Europe over a minor localised tactical issue in which on balance NATO is the aggressor not Russia.Just like Germany had no intention of a war on two fronts in 1914 France forced its hand stupidly and tragically helped by us.
As for Churchill dragging us all into WW1 over a local Russian German argument which would have been over before it began if we had stayed well out of it, this Churchill.
We can probably transfer that opening theme and tune to Ukraine if NATO refuses to back down over moving into Ukraine.Even if Putin would stand for it his generals won't.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x208lju 42.15 -

Also bearing in mind WW2 was just the sequel and America and most modern generations have no stomach for mutually assured destruction and Russia and China know it.

[Harry Monk]

Could the conflict spread to Sweden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSJUS2tymZA

[Carryfast]

Could the conflict spread to Sweden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSJUS2tymZA

If Russia goes for it then advancing across a wide a front as possible is to their advantage.
Also bearing in mind their old tried and tested retreat Eastwards back into their limitless interior then counter attack tactics.
While all we ever had was if they make a move on us then we end it all.The stupid Americans think that they can advance NATO piecemeal a bit at a time into Russia's back yard like the Germans tried.
Even more stupidly they think that Putin and his generals will stand for it.
Ukraine is Russia's red line in the sand and if NATO refuses to guarantee not moving in there, like it has done in Poland and the Baltics, all bets are off.

[Carryfast]

Could the conflict spread to Sweden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSJUS2tymZA

Also depends on the definition of 'conflict'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L60QCU9m9mQ

Notice that US/NATO hasn't stated that it will escalate any tactical nuclear strikes with all out strategic mutually assured destruction retaliation.
The Americans are all mouth when gambling over a European War limited to Europe.
All on a stupid ego trip to expand NATO where it was never meant to be.
But these days they haven't even got the bottle to back it by risking their own homeland.Which is why they 'got rid' of JFK and surrendered in Vietnam and to China ever since.

[Monkey241]

Mayo and chips isn't just a Belgian thing

Declaring themselves neutral, thereby providing Churchill with a false pretext for our involvement in a catastrophic World War, is.
A bit like Ukraine inviting NATO into Russia's backyard and Boris and Biden saying go for it, we've got your back, what could possibly go wrong.

I think you'll find Belgium didn't declare its neutrality. The premise for that goes back to the Treaty of London. Neutrality was guaranteed cos Belgium tended to figure in most European attack strategies.

And you're confusing world wars Belgian violation triggered WW1 - the trigger for Churchill in WW2 was Poland.

Apart from those little inaccuracies you're grasp of European history is stunning. I shall follow your every utterance with a new found respect from now on

Until that Belgian neutrality was taken advantage of by Russia and France to threaten Germany by removing its only means of defence against a war on two fronts.
Not that I condone the refusal of Serb self determination in that but Churchill was happy enough to deny same for Ireland.
But ironically and more importantly it contains a frightening paralel to Ukraine in risking Europe over a minor localised tactical issue in which on balance NATO is the aggressor not Russia.Just like Germany had no intention of a war on two fronts in 1914 France forced its hand stupidly and tragically helped by us.
As for Churchill dragging us all into WW1 over a local Russian German argument which would have been over before it began if we had stayed well out of it, this Churchill.
We can probably transfer that opening theme and tune to Ukraine if NATO refuses to back down over moving into Ukraine.Even if Putin would stand for it his generals won't.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x208lju 42.15 -

Also bearing in mind WW2 was just the sequel and America and most modern generations have no stomach for mutually assured destruction and Russia and China know it.[/quote]Ffs....how many tines?

Churchill DIDN'T drag us into WW1

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[Juddian]

Can't wait to see how many $billions worth of arms and equipment Bidet's war machine manages to lose or leave behind in the threatened (by Bidens regime) next debacle of his alleged presidency.

[the nodding donkey]

I wonder. It depends on how big the ammunition stockpiles of the west are....

Stockpiles need to be used, to stop the ammo going out of date, and to keep the armaments industry running. It's been a long time since the Gulf War, and now that the West no longer use Afghanistan as a sandbox, the West needs a new proxy war to use its ammunition stocks.

America won't sent troops (the electorate will lynch Biden), but will supply... I mean sell vast quantities of hardware/ammo.

[osark]

Putin killing NATO without a shot.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... ns-ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-01-21/

But I guess for Germany the choice is betwenn NATO or lecky and gas